8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

spookwoman · 20-05-2018 03:44AM

Junadl wrote: »

You may not have but loads of Yes people I have encountered, their main arguments are rape cases. So because life is being devalued we should continue in this downward spiral? Many of us don't want to live in a society where compassion is killing a woman's' unborn child. If that is what compassion is then I want to get off this planet.

I dont know if they are still recruiting but please try
https://www.mars-one.com/

gctest50 · 20-05-2018 03:47AM

Junadl wrote: »

You may not have but loads of Yes people I have encountered, their main arguments are rape cases. .

Frequency illusion / BaderMeinhoff maybe ? catch you out really easily

White_hills · 20-05-2018 03:48AM

Junadl wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-38960437

The article outlines some of the reasons.... so I'm not sure why you asked why when it's already detailed.

Junadl · 20-05-2018 03:48AM

PhoenixParker wrote: »

So let me get this straight you're voting no to give yourself control so that you can prevent your sons hypothetical future girlfriend from hypothetically having an abortion at 20 weeks pregnant if hypothetically that's what she wants to do after having a hypothetical argument with your son.

In the non-hypothetical world

The 8th doesn't give you that control as you cannot prevent her travelling to the UK.

Removing the 8th doesn't allow her to have that abortion in Ireland.

Real women with real pregnancies who have access to abortions at any point in pregnancy (e.g. Canada) virtually never choose to abort at 20 weeks except in the most dire of circumstances (e.g. fatal foetal abnormality, life threatening illness, permanent health impacts)

Real women with real pregnancies in crisis suffer daily because of the 8th amendment.

Empathy eh?

No I vote no because I believe all lives matter. I want to be in society which welcomes life and teaches people the value of life. Which welcomes motherhood instead of forcing mothers to part with their tiny babies at the creche door. Which sends a lot of women into PPD. Why are mothers not allowed the choice to look after their own baby if she wishes?

I vote no to the belief that an unborn baby in the first trimester is disposable. No to using abortion as a contraceptive. No to the lies that a baby is nothing more than a clump of cells. No to the lies that tell a woman that abortion will serve her mental health positively. No to abortion being the best solution to a crisis pregnancy. What about adoption?

PhoenixParker · 20-05-2018 03:51AM

Junadl wrote: »

No I vote no because I believe all lives matter. I want to be in society which welcomes life and teaches people the value of life. Which welcomes motherhood instead of forcing mothers to part with their tiny babies at the creche door. Which sends a lot of women into PPD. Why are mothers not allowed the choice to look after their own baby if she wishes?

I vote no to the belief that an unborn baby in the first trimester is disposable. No to using abortion as a contraceptive. No to the lies that a baby is nothing more than a clump of cells. No to the lies that tell a woman that abortion will serve her mental health positively. No to abortion being the best solution to a crisis pregnancy. What about adoption?

And I ask again, what have you personally done in a practical sense to bring about that society?

veronymus · 20-05-2018 03:53AM

Junadl wrote: »

You may not have but loads of Yes people I have encountered, their main arguments are rape cases. So because life is being devalued we should continue in this downward spiral? Many of us don't want to live in a society where compassion is killing a woman's' unborn child. If that is what compassion is then I want to get off this planet.

So how does your compassion manifest itself then? You have been asked this question already. What do you do in a practical way to improve the lives of women and girls who find themselves in such awful predicaments?

The Save the 8th group have had in excess of three decades to take practical steps to improve conditions but are only making noises now. I expect silence from them again after the 25th on the matter.

Really hope there is enough support to get this over the line. At least we'll know for sure whether the people who claim to have such love for 'both' will step up to the plate.

Junadl · 20-05-2018 03:55AM

How the abortion movement started with deceit and lies--Dr Nathanson

I welcome the courage of the BMJ to write an obituary on Dr Bernard
Nathanson who became one of the most prominent opponents of abortion;
after being responsible for 75,000 or so abortions himself.
What is not immediately obvious to everyone is that the abortion movement
started with deception and even lies. Dr Nathanson has been very explicit
on this and I am going to quote from his writings and speeches. He said
regarding the campaign to legalise abortion in the US:

'We fed the public a line of deceit, dishonesty, a fabrication of
statistics and figures. We succeeded [in breaking down the laws limiting
abortions] because the time was right and the news media cooperated. We
sensationalized the effects of illegal abortions, and fabricated polls
which indicated that 85% of the public favoured unrestricted abortion,
when we knew it was only 5%. We unashamedly lied, and yet our statements
were quoted [by the media] as though they had been written in law.'
(quoted in John Powell, Abortion: the silent Holocaust. Tabor, Allen,
Texas. 1981.)

The statistics of maternal mortality due to self-induced abortion
were grossly exaggerated. Dr Nathanson writes:

'How many deaths were we talking about when abortion was illegal? In
NARAL (National Association for Repeal of Abortion Laws) we generally
emphasized the drama of the individual case, not the mass statistics, but
when we spoke of the latter it was always 5,000 to 10,000 a year. I
confess that I knew the figures were totally false, But in the "morality"
of our revolution, it was a useful figure, widely accepted, so why go out
of our way to correct it with honest statistics?' The official figures of
maternal death due to illegal abortion before abortion was legalised was
160. Dr Nathanson estimates the actual figure to be around 500 maternal
deaths per year. (Bernard Nathanson, Richard Ostling. Aborting America.
Pinnacle Books. New York 1979.)

In a speech he said about his attempts to legalise abortion:

'There was only silence from the opposition. We fed a line of deceit,
of dishonesty, of fabrication of statistics and figures; we coddled,
caressed, and stroked the press. (...) We were calling ourselves pro-
abortionists and pro-choice. In fact we were abortifiers: those who like
abortion. Let me digress and speak for a moment on the question of 'pro-
choice', as they euphemistically call themselves now. I reject that
phrase, that euphemism. It is misleading. It is dishonest. It implies that
in the issue of abortion there is an ethical choice whether to have an
abortion or whether not to have an abortion;...Of course... abortion is
not an ethical choice.

In February of 1971, I organized and ran the Center for Reproductive
and Sexual Health, another amusing euphemism for an abortion clinic. It
was not just an abortion clinic. It was the abortion clinic. It was in New
York and curiously, it was established and fed by the Clergy Consultation
Service, an organisation of twelve hundred Protestant Ministers and Jewish
Rabbis who took it upon themselves to funnel through 60,000 young women in
the space of 19 months that I ran it. The Clergy Consultation Service -
I'd never known that clergymen were actively involved in abortion before,
but my eyes were opened. ... It was a $5 million-a-year business. Think
now how many handicapped children could be helped, how much cancer
research could be done, how many operations of a decent sort could be
carried out on poor people with that kind of money!'

'The discussion... has been muddied by a resort to a particularly
vicious brand of anti-Catholicism, as many of you know, in the press.
There have been ongoing attempts to paint this movement [the pro-life
movement] as a Catholic movement, and there have been almost heartbreaking
lies and libel in the press on this score. If you ever substituted for the
word Catholic, in many of these publications the word Jewish or black, you
would be immediately castigated. The press would destroy you. However,
because the word Catholic is used, it appears to be allowable.'
(quoted in John Powell, Abortion: the silent Holocaust. Tabor, Allen,
Texas. 1981.)

Your article mentions the US Supreme court ruling from 1973 - Roe vs
Wade - that legalised abortion in the US. In what must have been quite a
blow to the pro-abortion movement, Norma McCorvey, the "Jane Roe," (the
pseudonym she assumed to remain anonymous as the lead plaintiff in that
case) also changed her mind on abortion. She appears to be actually quite
critical of the abortion movement, feels used, and admits that - at the
time - she was not seeking an abortion after all.
(http://articles.cnn.com/2003-01-21/justice/mccorvey.interview_1_norma-
mccorvey-jane-roe-abortion-rights?_s=PM:LAW)
She now is actively involved in the pro-life movement and has her own
organisation (http://www.leaderu.com/norma/)

Coming back to Dr Nathanson, why did he change his views on abortion?

'Why did I change my mind? Well, to begin with, it was not from a
religious conviction, ... I am an Atheist... In any case, the change of
mind began with the realization, the inescapable reality that the fetus,
that embryo, is a person, is a protectable human life. The change also
began on the basis of my own secular belief in the golden rule: if you
would not have your own life taken away from you, you must not take
someone else's life.' (quoted in John Powell, Abortion: the silent
Holocaust. Tabor, Allen, Texas. 1981.)

He wrote in the article (mentioned in the BMJ obituary) for the New
England Journal of Medicine in 1974:

"We must courageously face the fact - finally - that human life of a
special order is being taken. (...) The fierce militants of the Women's
Liberation evade this issue and assert that the woman's right to bear or
not to bear children is her absolute right. (...) On the other hand the
ferocious Right-to life legions proclaim no rights for the women and
absolute rights for the fetus. (...) Somewhere in the vast philosophic
plateau between the two implacably opposed camps- past the slogans, past
the pamphlets, past even the demonstrations and the legislative threats -
lies the infinitely agonizing truth. We are taking life, and the
deliberate taking of life, even of a special order and under special
circumstances, is an inexpressibly serious matter." (Bernard Nathanson.
Deeper into Abortion. New England Journal of Medicine. 28 November 1974.)

Junadl · 20-05-2018 03:57AM

PhoenixParker wrote: »

And I ask again, what have you personally done in a practical sense to bring about that society?

Would you personally inject poison into the unborn baby and end the baby's life?

veronymus · 20-05-2018 04:00AM

Junadl wrote: »

How the abortion movement started with deceit and lies--Dr Nathanson.....

How on earth does this guy's Pauline conversion have anything to do with the situation in Ireland?

Simi · 20-05-2018 04:02AM

Mushy wrote: »

There is part of me that understands why people will vote no, but I can't help but feel that a larger picture is being missed here (not specifically on Boards) by some that could very easily impact closer to home than they realise.

This holds true for many conservative mindsets, e.g. Viewing people on social welfare as dole scroungers until they or someone they care about loses their job. And it's not just conservative people, it's true for all of us, judging people based on our own life experiences with little effort to try to understand theirs.

The best tool against it in this instance is personal testimony like that contained in the Facebook group In Her Shoes https://m.facebook.com/RepealTheEighth/

It really is unfortunate that the vast majority of Irish people will never read their words. Their voices deserve to be heard.

freshpopcorn · 20-05-2018 04:03AM

In the run up to the same-sex marriage refferendum we sad GRA(Garda Union),Childline, GAA members(I think), Pavee Point. Have this happened this time around?

PhoenixParker · 20-05-2018 04:13AM

Junadl wrote: »

Would you personally inject poison into the unborn baby and end the baby's life?

No answer for me on the practical measures you have taken to support women during a crisis pregnancy and afterwards as they struggle with motherhood so?

To answer your question:

I'm not a doctor so I wouldn't inject anything anywhere as I would risk killing the woman so absolutely not.

If I was a trained medical professional.

Injecting poison into a baby suggests a late stage abortion typically only carried out because the mother is at extreme risk of health issues or there's a fatal foetal abnormality. I'd like to think I'd hold her hand, cry with her and help her through what needed to be done, even if it was at a personal cost to myself.

I know if it was me as the mother in such a horrific situation, being able to go through that and go home to my own bed, be surrounded by family and friends, be able to cuddle my living breathing child would be of immense, incalculable value.

If you're talking about the pre-12 week abortions that don't require injections into the fetus. I would talk to the woman about her decision, correct any errors in her knowledge about the supports available, put her in touch with counselling and supports, encourage her to discuss her decision with those closest to her, and ultimately, if she believes abortion is the treatment she needs, prescribe the pills or refer her for surgical treatment.

I believe that having counselling, support, advice and abortion treatment readily available in Ireland is much more supportive and safe then the current panic situation Irish women find themselves in.

Talking to a doctor and waiting 72 hours for treatment is an opportunity for support and information that is vastly better then ordering pills online or a plane to England.

The 8th doesn't prevent abortion, it turns the "easy" cases into panicked situations allowing no time for reflection and no opportunity to offer genuine support. It turns the hard cases into heart breaking cruelty to vulnerable women. There is no reason to retain it.

spookwoman · 20-05-2018 04:13AM

Junadl wrote: »

No I vote no because I believe all lives matter. I want to be in society which welcomes life and teaches people the value of life. Which welcomes motherhood instead of forcing mothers to part with their tiny babies at the creche door. Which sends a lot of women into PPD. Why are mothers not allowed the choice to look after their own baby if she wishes?

No one is forcing you to leave your kids at the creche door and no one is forcing you to not look after your kids. Are you not a registered childminder yourself? But guess what it's life and it's called taking responsibility for your actions.

Junadl wrote: »

My three kids were not planned and I wasn't in a perfect place in life to have them.

No matter what angle you come from, taking the right to life from my future grandchildren, based on women who want to **** around and not take responsibility for their actions, isn't sitting right. Why should the taxpayer have to fund your irresponsible actions?

But you want society to pay for your "irresponsible actions" to give you a house, to pay for you to stay at home to mind your kids. Why don't you get onto Save the 8th for a house and a wage to stay at home.

Overheal · 20-05-2018 05:52AM

Junadl wrote:

Why should the taxpayer have to fund your irresponsible actions?

Oh I wouldn’t try and make an economic argument if I were you. If you’re worried about the taxpayer cost of one way or the other, abortion is vastly cheaper than pregnancies, and indeed children in general, to the taxpayer.

all lives matter

oh. You’re one of Those people

Cabaal · 20-05-2018 06:25AM

Junadl wrote: »

No what I am saying is that if Yes voters say an unborn baby is nothing/worthless/a clump of cells then .

So you very clearly think abortions are bad, so tell me. If they are so bad do you think women should be banned from travelling to the UK for abortions?

Do you also think that the 13th and 14th amendments should be repealed in our constitution?

Now before you answer, remember that unless you answer yes to both questions then you actually support abortions happening.

Also, if say a 12 week old fetus is equal to a born baby in your eyes in rights. Why are you OK with them smoking and drinking?

Many pregnant women smoke and drink and if you're going to claim a fetus had equal rights to a born baby then why are you not seeking to make it illegal for women to do this? it would seem the logical step to protect this equal life (in your view) and we have for example very clear evidence of the very negative effects of alcohol on the development of the fetus via Fetal alcohol spectrum disorder.

After all, if a woman gave alcohol to a baby she'd be in a lot of trouble!

Macha · 20-05-2018 07:32AM

What I also find strange is people who think the moment of conception is the start of life, aren't against the morning after pill. It works by stopping the fertilised egg from attaching to the wall of the uterus. Technically that should also be considered murder.

I learned on a debate yesterday that Pro life campaigners tried to get the 14 year jail sentence for taking abortion pills in Ireland removed but the Attorney General said the bill was unconstitutional (if a woman's life and foetus's life are equal, you should get the same jail sentence for their murder). But why did the pro-life do that? They accuse the yes campaign of not considering the foetus as a baby but its inconsistent then for them not to want a 14 year jail sentence for a foetus's murder, as they would put it.

Cabaal · 20-05-2018 07:37AM

Macha wrote: »

What I also find strange is people who think the moment of conception is the start of life, aren't against the morning after pill. It works by stopping the fertilised egg from attaching to the wall of the uterus. Technically that should also be considered murder.

I learned on a debate yesterday that Pro life campaigners tried to get the 14 year jail sentence for taking abortion pills in Ireland removed but the Attorney General said the bill was unconstitutional (if a woman's life and foetus's life are equal, you should get the same jail sentence for their murder). But why did the pro-life do that? They accuse the yes campaign of not considering the foetus as a baby but its inconsistent then for them not to want a 14 year jail sentence for a foetus's murder, as they would put it.

The pro-life groups have also clearly stated that if a women obtains an illegal abortion in Ireland she should also not be prosecuted or jailed.

So using their very flawed logic, abortion should remain illegal because abortion is murder because it kills a "baby", but the murderer should not have anything happen to them if they commit this murder. (wtf?)

It really doesn't seem like the actually believe the fetus is equal at all.

Either we repeal the 8th and allow women to have choice when it comes to their medical needs or we need to stop pissing about and properly enforce our laws and start charging women under the existing laws to ensure that they receive a criminal record for the criminal action they've taken.

Right now a person using a mobile phone while driving will get in more trouble by the gardai then a women who has an illegal abortion....this is how little the pro life groups value a fetus that they claim is equal to a baby.

They've been told time and time again it's not possible to have the 8th and have no criminal charges/sentence for an abortion, yet they ignore this.

_Dara_ · 20-05-2018 07:58AM

Junadl wrote: »

But when a woman becomes pregnant then there are two lives involved. So it can be her choice all those other things but women should not have the choice to kill. Just... nah. Women who are for that do not represent us all, thankfully.

And women with your lack of compassion don’t represent us all either thankfully. Phew! :cool:

Alan_P · 20-05-2018 08:05AM

Cabaal wrote: »

The pro-life groups have also clearly stated that if a women obtains an illegal abortion in Ireland she should also not be prosecuted or jailed.

So using their very flawed logic, abortion should remain illegal because abortion is murder because it kills a "baby", but the murderer should not have anything happen to them if they commit this murder. (wtf?)

It really doesn't seem like the actually believe the fetus is equal at all.

Either we repeal the 8th and allow women to have choice when it comes to their medical needs or we need to stop pissing about and properly enforce our laws and start charging women under the existing laws to ensure that they receive a criminal record for the criminal action they've taken.

Right now a person using a mobile phone while driving will get in more trouble by the gardai then a women who has an illegal abortion....this is how little the pro life groups value a fetus that they claim is equal to a baby.

They've been told time and time again it's not possible to have the 8th and have no criminal charges/sentence for an abortion, yet they ignore this.

If you really want to protect Irish babies, those 9 babies a day being aborted in the UK are an abomination
We need to think creatively
mandatory pregnancy tests every month for every fertile women.
Urine tests in the ports and airports.
Mandatory reporting of positive pregnancy tests.
Some simple obvious measures and we truly sanctify life. Why don't those babies matter ?

20-05-2018 08:09AM

Junadl wrote: »

No I vote no because I believe all lives matter. I want to be in society which welcomes life and teaches people the value of life. Which welcomes motherhood instead of forcing mothers to part with their tiny babies at the creche door. Which sends a lot of women into PPD. Why are mothers not allowed the choice to look after their own baby if she wishes?

I vote no to the belief that an unborn baby in the first trimester is disposable. No to using abortion as a contraceptive. No to the lies that a baby is nothing more than a clump of cells. No to the lies that tell a woman that abortion will serve her mental health positively. No to abortion being the best solution to a crisis pregnancy. What about adoption?

Who is not allowing mothers to look after their own children?
Do you know what contraception is? Once a woman is pregnant it's too late for contraception.
Is there some proof that abortion is bad for all women's mental health?

gandalf · 20-05-2018 08:18AM

thee glitz wrote: »

Would you say an unborn should be denied the right to life for this reason - is that where your concern lies, at all? Of course it would be difficult for the victim to carry through with it. The MAP might be a good solution. Either way, allowing abortion for any/no reason is not justified by this possibility.

So basically that's a yes you would force a rape victim to carry a child she did not want.

Am I comfortable allowing that VICTIM have a choice on what to do, absolutely. That's why I am going door to door campaigning to give them and all women a choice. Do I believe a under 12 week foetus is equal to that of a woman no I don't. The woman is the fully formed being and may have other fully formed beings relying on her ability to care for them.

Do I agree with abortion I absolutely do not, I think it is abhorrent and in an ideal world it wouldn't exist. But we don't live in an ideal world. The world is grey and not black and white like the no campaign view it.

At the end of the day you need to consider the women in your life, your grandmother, your mother, your sister, your aunt, your daughter, your granddaughter and your friends. If you trust these women then there is only one logical choice on Friday and that is to repeal the 8th and trust in their choice.

Zubeneschamali · 20-05-2018 08:19AM

gctest50 wrote: »

this yoke "never will carry out an abortion " :

Don't forget that some of these folks are deep in the Catholic weeds - it is quite possible that he has performed loads of abortions but uses Catholic double talk to pretend that an operation which saves the mothers life and kills the fetus is not an abortion when the Bishop says so.

_Dara_ · 20-05-2018 08:20AM

Alan_P wrote: »

If you really want to protect Irish babies, those 9 babies a day being aborted in the UK are an abomination
We need to think creatively
mandatory pregnancy tests every month for every fertile women.
Urine tests in the ports and airports.
Mandatory reporting of positive pregnancy tests.
Some simple obvious measures and we truly sanctify life. Why don't those babies matter ?

The right to travel for a termination in enshrined in the constitution. That was decided by referendum, quite decisively. What you are suggesting contravenes the 13th amendment.

“Think creatively” is one way of putting it.

Leroy42 · 20-05-2018 08:21AM

I was told recently that miscarriages and still births under 6 months are given neither birth or death certificates, is that correct?

Does the church undertake funerals in these circumstances?

gctest50 · 20-05-2018 08:22AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Don't forget that some of these folks are deep in the Catholic weeds - it is quite possible that he has performed loads of abortions but uses Catholic double talk to pretend that an operation which saves the mothers life and kills the fetus is not an abortion when the Bishop says so.

I nearly forgot about the auld Mental Reservation

I suppose it doesn't readily spring to mind since it's a bat sh!t crazy way to behave day to day

pjohnson · 20-05-2018 08:23AM

_Dara_ wrote: »

The right to travel for a termination in enshrined in the constitution. That was decided by referendum, quite decisively. What you are suggesting contravenes the 13th amendment.

“Think creatively” is one way of putting it.

Why aren't the no voters chasing down the 13th Amendment? Keep the walking incubators here until the precious baby is birthed and they loose any interest?

_Dara_ · 20-05-2018 08:25AM

pjohnson wrote: »

Why aren't the no voters chasing down the 13th Amendment? Keep the walking incubators here until the precious baby is birthed and they loose any interest?

Well, if Alan there is anything to go by, some aren’t even aware of the right to travel! :eek:

gctest50 · 20-05-2018 08:25AM

pjohnson wrote: »

Why aren't the no voters chasing down the 13th Amendment? Keep the walking incubators here until the precious baby is birthed and they loose any interest?

Because they haven't the mother-and-baby-homes-part-2 built yet

Annasopra · 20-05-2018 08:28AM

Just her wrote: »

I don't think there is actually anything in the 8th they prevents her getting treatment.

What?

Are you that badly misinformed?

erica74 · 20-05-2018 08:32AM

Junadl wrote: »

We have no say as there is no protection for that baby..

What say do you think you or any father has over an unborn baby now?

Junadl wrote: »

I gave the Miss C as an example as she has been in the situation many Yes voters use as a reason to abort any babies up to 12 weeks and beyond. Despite what she went through her love for her child outweighed everything else.

Unfortunately for Miss C, she was the victim of rape and the victim of very poor medical care. It would appear that everything was not explained to her properly, maybe the fact that she was a traveller created a communication barrier or maybe, the people looking after her just did a shit job.
In any event, every woman is different, every pregnancy is different and every abortion is different. For a large percentage of women, after they have an abortion, they feel relieved, relieved that they can return to the life that they are living and begin to move on. This doesn't mean that it is easy.

Junadl wrote: »

Save the 8th campaign have put forward much better ideas than abortion. Like financial aid for crisis pregnancies, free childcare amongst other ideas.

And how are the campaigns for these "ideas" going? There's no mention of any of this on your posters or leaflets, none that I have seen anyway.

Junadl wrote: »

You may not have but loads of Yes people I have encountered, their main arguments are rape cases. So because life is being devalued we should continue in this downward spiral? Many of us don't want to live in a society where compassion is killing a woman's' unborn child. If that is what compassion is then I want to get off this planet.

So you would prefer for girls and women to carry their rapist's baby? What about a woman in a relationship who has been raped and finds herself pregnant? Is her partner supposed to raise her rapist's baby? How do you think that would work?

As someone who was sexually abused as a child and raped as an adult, I can tell you that there's enough weight on my husband in respect of my emotional damage, never mind there also being a child involved.

Junadl wrote: »

Why are mothers not allowed the choice to look after their own baby if she wishes?

Because the majority of people have to work to get money to buy things. The days of a one income household and one full time parent are long gone. Also, bear in mind, many women are happy to go back to work, get their careers back in track, allow their child build social skills in crèche etc. However, many parents (men and women) do still choose to stay home to be a full-time parent but that has nothing to do with the 8th.

Junadl wrote: »

I vote no to the belief that an unborn baby in the first trimester is disposable. No to using abortion as a contraceptive. No to the lies that a baby is nothing more than a clump of cells. No to the lies that tell a woman that abortion will serve her mental health positively. No to abortion being the best solution to a crisis pregnancy. What about adoption?

Well, I thought it would be obvious but, if a woman wants an abortion, she no longer wants to be pregnant so adoption isn't an option because that would mean continuing to be pregnant.

Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that abortion will be used as a contraceptive?
While we're on the topic of contraception, I'll just make it clear again that no contraception is 100% effective and you can't add condoms and the pill together to make it 100% effective.
If contraception is used but fails and a woman gets pregnant, it's not because she's too stupid to understand contraception, it's because contraception isn't 100% effective.

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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