8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

Ave Sodalis · 19-05-2018 09:01PM

Putinbot wrote:

So I've made up my mind. I was a no but now I'm a yes. My neighbour got taken out of her house this morning at 7am. She had a seizure. She is just over 3 months pregnant and they think she may have meningitis. They are telling her and her husband that they can't do some tests as it may effect the baby.

That's absolutely heartbreaking to read. I sincerely hope she stays well

FingerDeKat · 19-05-2018 09:01PM

Putinbot wrote: »

So I've made up my mind. I was a no but now I'm a yes. My neighbour got taken out of her house this morning at 7am. She had a seizure. She is just over 3 months pregnant and they think she may have meningitis. They are telling her and her husband that they can't do some tests as it may effect the baby.

I just spoke to the husband and he is just home from the hospital and is looking up flights to his home country to get her treated properly.

thats fukking horrible. Best wishes

looksee · 19-05-2018 09:01PM

Putinbot wrote: »

So I've made up my mind. I was a no but now I'm a yes. My neighbour got taken out of her house this morning at 7am. She had a seizure. She is just over 3 months pregnant and they think she may have meningitis. They are telling her and her husband that they can't do some tests as it may effect the baby.

I just spoke to the husband and he is just home from the hospital and is looking up flights to his home country to get her treated properly.

It would be very opportune to shout that from the housetops! That is disgraceful, but she will not be allowed fly with meningitis, will she?

Allinall · 19-05-2018 09:02PM

Grayson wrote: »

I had a snackbox in my bag

So.... if they had engaged with you. Snack box would have won out?

groovyg · 19-05-2018 09:03PM

Putinbot wrote: »

So I've made up my mind. I was a no but now I'm a yes. My neighbour got taken out of her house this morning at 7am. She had a seizure. She is just over 3 months pregnant and they think she may have meningitis. They are telling her and her husband that they can't do some tests as it may effect the baby.

I just spoke to the husband and he is just home from the hospital and is looking up flights to his home country to get her treated properly.

Jesus that’s worrying you can’t around when it comes to meningitis, needs to be treated pronto. My old principals daughter died from meningitis. I hope she will be ok.

ArmaniJeanss · 19-05-2018 09:04PM

I thought the new Savita posters from rosa launched on Thursday morning were quite effective.

Seems the other side did too, as they have come up with their own Vote No Savita poster, using basically the identical image and colouring scheme.

https://www.facebook.com/RuthCoppingerTD/posts/1693520757405225

I think it's fairly disgraceful as her parents have expressed a preference for a vote for Yes, though in fairness that's showing my own bias. It may be an inspired move on their part, though it also means they can hardly say 'this campaign is nothing to do with Savita' if they are using her image themselves.

I think I'm happy enough with Savita being kept to the centre of the campaign anyway, its an area of the debate where Yes is on solid ground.

Ken. · 19-05-2018 09:07PM

looksee wrote: »

It would be very opportune to shout that from the housetops! That is disgraceful, but she will not be allowed fly with meningitis, will she?

I don't know to be honest. They only suspect it but they can't confirm. To be honest I don't know what the test is for meningitis.

RabbleRouser2k · 19-05-2018 09:09PM

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I thought the new Savita posters from rosa launched on Thursday morning were quite effective.

Seems the other side did too, as they have come up with their own Vote No Savita poster, using basically the identical image and colouring scheme.

https://www.facebook.com/RuthCoppingerTD/posts/1693520757405225

I think it's fairly disgraceful as her parents have expressed a preference for a vote for Yes, though in fairness that's showing my own bias. It may be an inspired move on their part, though it also means they can hardly say 'this campaign is nothing to do with Savita' if they are using her image themselves.

I think I'm happy enough with Savita being kept to the centre of the campaign anyway, its an area of the debate where Yes is on solid ground.

I had thought the 'Savita' angle was solid, so to speak (horrible as that is to say-using a dead woman as a debating device) but on Claire Byrne, the No side were able to state that it was a catalogue of errors that led to her death, not the 8th.

And no, I'm not mentioning the Mattie McGrath 'Let her rest in her grave' comment.

Savita was debunked, which I think hampered the Yes side, in that with the 'mystery' of Anne Lovett's death now no longer down to the 8th, I think the Yes campaign were hoping Savita would be a solid example.

Grayson · 19-05-2018 09:14PM

Allinall wrote: »

So.... if they had engaged with you. Snack box would have won out?

I hadn't eaten breakfast or lunch today. I would have chatted for a minute and then legged it.

BTW, I posted about it after I'd gotten home and eaten it. I was fecking starving.
There's one thing though. They were campaigners. I'm someone walking past. They're supposed to engage me. I can engage them but I don't have to. That's why I found it strange. With so many there you'd think one would have said something.

spookwoman · 19-05-2018 09:14PM

Putinbot wrote: »

I don't know to be honest. They only suspect it but they can't confirm. To be honest I don't know what the test is for meningitis.

I think MRI, lumbar puncture there is also the strain of meningitis

Calina · 19-05-2018 09:16PM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I thought the new Savita posters from rosa launched on Thursday morning were quite effective.

Seems the other side did too, as they have come up with their own Vote No Savita poster, using basically the identical image and colouring scheme.

https://www.facebook.com/RuthCoppingerTD/posts/1693520757405225

I think it's fairly disgraceful as her parents have expressed a preference for a vote for Yes, though in fairness that's showing my own bias. It may be an inspired move on their part, though it also means they can hardly say 'this campaign is nothing to do with Savita' if they are using her image themselves.

I think I'm happy enough with Savita being kept to the centre of the campaign anyway, its an area of the debate where Yes is on solid ground.

I had thought the 'Savita' angle was solid, so to speak (horrible as that is to say-using a dead woman as a debating device) but on Claire Byrne, the No side were able to state that it was a catalogue of errors that led to her death, not the 8th.

And no, I'm not mentioning the Mattie McGrath 'Let her rest in her grave' comment.

Savita was debunked, which I think hampered the Yes side, in that with the 'mystery' of Anne Lovett's death now no longer down to the 8th, I think the Yes campaign were hoping Savita would be a solid example.

But they cannot debunk the fact that if she had been given a termination when she requested it and before sepsis set in, she would most likely not have died. She is a solid example.

RabbleRouser2k · 19-05-2018 09:17PM

Putinbot wrote: »

I don't know to be honest. They only suspect it but they can't confirm. To be honest I don't know what the test is for meningitis.

(Apologies for double posting)

Sounds like Listeria-which can lead to meningitis.
Apparently you can treat a pregnant woman who has meningitis, similarly to how one can treat cancer in a woman who is pregnant.

But if she is high risk, or her life is at risk, there may be a reason to end the pregnancy..

Ken. · 19-05-2018 09:21PM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

(Apologies for double posting)

Sounds like Listeria-which can lead to meningitis.
Apparently you can treat a pregnant woman who has meningitis, similarly to how one can treat cancer in a woman who is pregnant.

But if she is high risk, or her life is at risk, there may be a reason to end the pregnancy..

I should have added that before they had their daughter 10 months ago they had 2 mid term(bout 4-5 months) miscarriages.

applehunter · 19-05-2018 09:22PM

Lia_lia wrote: »

Looks like all my TD's are a yes anyway.

Was out canvassing again today. Still so many undecided. But would love to know are they just saying that.

Are you CNC?

RabbleRouser2k · 19-05-2018 09:24PM

Calina wrote: »

But they cannot debunk the fact that if she had been given a termination when she requested it and before sepsis set in, she would most likely not have died. She is a solid example.

Yes, but the hospital could and should have ended the pregnancy-even those on the Yes campaign have said it was an option without the 8th.

(Speaking as someone who wishes to see the 8th repealed, in case that's not apparent).

Bad notekeeping and other failures lead to her death-an overworked staff and people not being told of her condition. A termination should have been done, as one doctor noted, and they were within their legal right to do so.

A recent case where an Irish woman died in England after travelling for a termination raised questions regarding the safety as well.

gmisk · 19-05-2018 09:26PM

Calina wrote: »

But they cannot debunk the fact that if she had been given a termination when she requested it and before sepsis set in, she would most likely not have died. She is a solid example.

That is absolutely disgraceful the no side using her image with zero permission... I honestly didn't think they could go any lower but I was wrong... Tbh can't wait for this to be over!
If anything a crappy stunt like this will just piss people off I would say and switch to yes.

gandalf · 19-05-2018 09:27PM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Savita was debunked, which I think hampered the Yes side, in that with the 'mystery' of Anne Lovett's death now no longer down to the 8th, I think the Yes campaign were hoping Savita would be a solid example.

It has not been debunked at all.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/author-of-savita-halappanavar-report-says-8th-amendment-contributed-to-her-death-810432.html

Savita Halappanavar died as a direct result of Ireland's restrictive abortion laws and not simply because she contracted sepsis, the author of the independent report into her death has said.

Prof Sir Sabaratnam Arulkumaran made the comment as he said the eighth amendment is "not working" and declared his "surprise" it has taken five years since Savita's death for a discussion on its removal to take place.

Grayson · 19-05-2018 09:30PM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

I had thought the 'Savita' angle was solid, so to speak (horrible as that is to say-using a dead woman as a debating device) but on Claire Byrne, the No side were able to state that it was a catalogue of errors that led to her death, not the 8th.

Savita is used by both sides. She died because of a catalogue of failures. The HIQA report listed over 20 if I remember correctly. If any one of those hadn't happened there's a chance she might have lived.

However it's 100% right to say that a termination would have probably have saved her. It's hard to say 100% because other stuff could have happened but there was a stage where a termination was the best chance of saving her and it was refused. This too is explicitly stated in the HIQA report.

basically she didn't need a termination when she arrived. But the hospital fcuked up so much that it eventually reached a point where she did need one and she was refused.

BTW, the HIQA report also stated that the reason she was refused was because of the 8th amendment.

The report is quite long. It's about 320 pages if I remember correctly. I read it for a project for a business masters. We were asked to examine innovation in the public sector. The assignment was over 5k words in length. I was going to do something else and a few days before it was due I said "fcuk it. I'm covering abortion".
So I examined the change management structure in the HSE and how it develops new processes based on previous events. I examined the fallout from the Savita case and read all the medical reports etc. I also found that the exact same scenario had occurred a few years earlier in Louth. A woman died there too. The HSE and HIQA examined it and found similar failings and implemented changes... in that hospital. If they'd implemented the changes in galway Savita might be alive with a healthy child. They don't appear to have any change management systems in place for spreading best practice from one hospital to another.

So I believe that terminations are a necessary part of a doctors tool kit in saving a womans life. It shouldn't be the only thing there. In a case like Savita you do everything to try and save both her and the foetus but if a termination is necessary to save the life of the mother the doctors should be able to take whatever action is necessary.

BTW, I managed to write the whole assignment without expressing an opinion about abortion and got the highest mark in my class

Martina1991 · 19-05-2018 09:35PM

Putinbot wrote:

I just spoke to the husband and he is just home from the hospital and is looking up flights to his home country to get her treated properly.

This is heart breaking and I truly hope she will recover.

This made me wonder how many No voters would change their mind if the 8th effected someone they knew.

spookwoman · 19-05-2018 09:35PM

Irish Medical Time Interview with Prof Sir Sabaratnam Arulkumaran ref Savita
If Savita Halapaanavar had received a termination when she asked for it she would have survived, left the hospital and perhaps gone on to have children. If the treatment was delayed a little longer, she would have survived, left the hospital but perhaps suffered from subfertility. This is the view of Prof Sir Sabaratnam Arulkumaran who chaired the panel of inquiry into the death of the young dentist four-and-a-half years ago in Galway.

https://www.imt.ie/features-opinion/interview-features-opinion/learning-lessons-from-savita-28-04-2017/

“She did have sepsis. However, if she had a termination in the first days as requested, she would not have had sepsis. We would never have heard of her and she would be alive today,” he said.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/medic-savita-died-as-result-of-abortion-laws-461173.html

thee glitz · 19-05-2018 09:36PM

Putinbot wrote: »

I just spoke to the husband and he is just home from the hospital and is looking up flights to his home country to get her treated properly.

Why the need for abortion on demand up to 12 weeks though? That's what's turning many people away voting yes.

gandalf · 19-05-2018 09:39PM

thee glitz wrote: »

Why the need for abortion on demand up to 12 weeks though? That's what's turning many people away voting yes.

It's been explained here multiple times. Its to cover for abortion because of rape or incest.

Dressing gown · 19-05-2018 09:39PM

Interesting article in the independent about undecideds. At the end the PR experts suggest that people are unlikely to be swayed by social media and more likely to be swayed by friends and family. So, have those awkward conversations with your folks that you think are voting contrary to you and try to talk them around (to yes of course but it goes for both sides!)

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/the-undecided-and-the-8th-are-the-yes-and-no-camps-doing-enough-36919028.html

Putinbot I hope your neighbour is alright. A member of my family had meningitis-recovered and is fine but it was scary stuff.

swampgas · 19-05-2018 09:41PM

thee glitz wrote: »

Why the need for abortion on demand up to 12 weeks though? That's what's turning many people away voting yes.

How many weeks would you accept?

freshpopcorn · 19-05-2018 09:48PM

Dressing gown wrote: »

Interesting article in the independent about undecideds. At the end the PR experts suggest that people are unlikely to be swayed by social media and more likely to be swayed by friends and family. So, have those awkward conversations with your folks that you think are voting contrary to you and try to talk them around (to yes of course but it goes for both sides!)

Yes, I agree with this. I agree that social media doesn't really sway people in my experience.
Today for example I clicked into facebook
First thing I saw was Repeal Angels and then a local eject with a No sign. They wouldn't exactly sway you.
When you speak to friends/family they sort of guilty you into it if you know what I mean!

Dressing gown · 19-05-2018 09:48PM

thee glitz wrote: »

Why the need for abortion on demand up to 12 weeks though? That's what's turning many people away voting yes.

Take a look at the Oireachtas Committee report. Purely speculating-I imagine for crisis pregnancies some people don’t realise they are pregnant straight away (and don’t forget the clock on dating a pregnancy starts before conception-it is dated from the first day of your last period. Eg a clear blue pregnancy test will tell you you are 1-2 weeks pregnant but this means you are actually dated 3-4 weeks pregnant depending on when you started your last period). So if you don’t notice a missed period straight away or are irregular (plenty of people are irregular it’s very common) you might not realise you are pregnant until 7/8 weeks (and that’s being vigilant-I know someone that didn’t realise she was pregnant until 5 months in-they kept the baby but it was a shock!) then you need to give a few days/week to process and by the time you get to the GP you could already be 9 weeks pregnant. You then have a 72 hour delay, if it’s the weekend there will be more delay etc and if you can’t get a GP appointment etc. It comes around pretty quick without any real faffing around at all. That’s all just speculation but a very plausible explanation.

Overheal · 19-05-2018 09:51PM

Dressing gown wrote: »

Take a look at the Oireachtas Committee report. Purely speculating-I imagine for crisis pregnancies some people don’t realise they are pregnant straight away (and don’t forget the clock on dating a pregnancy starts before conception-it is dated from the first day of your last period. Eg a clear blue pregnancy test will tell you you are 1-2 weeks pregnant but this means you are actually dated 3-4 weeks pregnant depending on when you started your last period). So if you don’t notice a missed period straight away or are irregular (plenty of people are irregular it’s very common) you might not realise you are pregnant until 7/8 weeks (and that’s being vigilant-I know someone that didn’t realise she was pregnant until 5 months in-they kept the baby but it was a shock!) then you need to give a few days/week to process and by the time you get to the GP you could already be 9 weeks pregnant. You then have a 72 hour delay, if it’s the weekend there will be more delay etc and if you can’t get a GP appointment etc. It comes around pretty quick without any real faffing around at all. That’s all just speculation but a very plausible explanation.

This is why Iowa's recent "heartbeat bill" that takes it down to 6 weeks will be overturned by the SCOTUS: most women don't even realize they are pregnant before then. The national average for that discovery is about 6 weeks.

spookwoman · 19-05-2018 09:51PM

And they sink lower
https://twitter.com/Womens_Aid/status/997423762944479232

Overheal · 19-05-2018 09:53PM

spookwoman wrote: »

And they sink lower
https://twitter.com/Womens_Aid/status/997423762944479232

Wait - how do you twist sexual abuse into a reason to keep the 8th?

freshpopcorn · 19-05-2018 10:01PM

Overheal wrote: »

Wait - how do you twist sexual abuse into a reason to keep the 8th?

I suppose making an educated guess they'd make out that if we had abortion available in Ireland a man might force a woman to abort her baby!

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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