8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

meeeeh · 18-05-2018 11:19AM

seamus wrote: »

In the event of a No vote, this is exactly what the Yes side should start doing. Start pushing, really, really hard, for Governments to legislate based on what the constitution requires.

Push for all suspected abortions to be investigated, push for harsher criminal convictions. Push to set up a mandatory body to record and investigate all miscarriages.

Expose the insanity of the eighth amendment for the entire country to see. Not the fluffy "tink of de baybees" nonsense, but "Lock up and criminalise women for trying to take control of their own bodies".

You mean sacrificing women who had abortions for the cause? That's seriously inhumane and I refuse to believe it's the only way to persuade people to repeal the 8th.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 18-05-2018 11:19AM

seamus wrote: »

In the event of a No vote, this is exactly what the Yes side should start doing. Start pushing, really, really hard, for Governments to legislate based on what the constitution requires.

Push for all suspected abortions to be investigated, push for harsher criminal convictions. Push to set up a mandatory body to record and investigate all miscarriages.

Expose the insanity of the eighth amendment for the entire country to see. Not the fluffy "tink of de baybees" nonsense, but "Lock up and criminalise women for trying to take control of their own bodies".

I'd rather not sacrifice any women on the altar to prove a point tbh.

Grayson · 18-05-2018 11:20AM

erica74 wrote: »

If the 8th amendment is repealed, disability will not be grounds for an abortion anyway so the use of images of children and adults with down syndrome is just another example of misinformation from the No side and confusion caused by their continuous lies.

My Together for Yes t shirt didn't come:(

Repeal the 8th.

I ordered badges from ARC. It took about 8 weeks for them to be dispatched.

erica74 · 18-05-2018 11:20AM

gmisk wrote: »

Id drop them a wee email, i did when badges went missing and they sent out some more.

My stuff was only marked shipped on Wednesday, I was just hoping I'd have it for the weekend:(

Guy:Incognito · 18-05-2018 11:22AM

On one of the discussions on radio the other day, not sure if it was news talk or RTE 1 had a woman from the no side talking about her son who has ds and how the 8th saved him. At no stage did I hear her suggest shed have had an abortion if it was an option or that she even knew he had it before he was born. So how the hell can she say it saved him. That's just out and out lies.

On another note, my brother, who I discussed earlier in the thread, had to travel to England this week with his gf to begin the whole process of scans and whatnot to tell them what they already know and to receive the proper treatment they can't get here. All while the families are back here not able to do anything to help. Plus she had her birthday this week while away. I'm sure all this will have lovely memories for her birthday going forward.

Love both my arse.

gmisk · 18-05-2018 11:24AM

erica74 wrote: »

My stuff was only marked shipped on Wednesday, I was just hoping I'd have it for the weekend:(

Ah boo might be Monday or Tuesday

There is a shop in temple bar if that is handy for you?
Also a lot of the stands on the street have badges (maybe not tees).

My place is coming down with badges btw I have
5 x yes
2 X Ta
1 x tak
1 x Si
and 1 x dogs for choice lol

Grayson · 18-05-2018 11:24AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

My daughter was telling me her boyfriend was saying that he doesn't like the way the Yes side are treating No voters, and may vote No as a result.

The little weasel.

I think anyone who says that isn't really using that an a reason, they're using that as an excuse. They want to vote one way but don't want to say why.

seamus · 18-05-2018 11:26AM

meeeeh wrote: »

You mean sacrificing women who had abortions for the cause? That's seriously inhumane and I refuse to believe it's the only way to persuade people to repeal the 8th.

Esmeralda Inexpensive Balloonist wrote: »

I'd rather not sacrifice any women on the altar to prove a point tbh.

It wouldn't happen. Which is really my point.

As soon as there was a sniff of actually enforcing the eighth to the extent it calls for, public opinion would swing massively in favour of repeal.

erica74 · 18-05-2018 11:33AM

gmisk wrote: »

Ah boo might be Monday or Tuesday

There is a shop in temple bar if that is handy for you?
Also a lot of the stands on the street have badges (maybe not tees).

My place is coming down with badges btw I have
5 x yes
2 X Ta
1 x tak
1 x Si
and 1 x dogs for choice lol

I'm in Waterford. I have badges on my bag. Hopefully I can get some more over the weekend. I like people to see Yes at every turn, for women to know they have support.

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

One of if the discussions on radio the other day, not sure if it was news talk or RTE 1 had a woman from the no side talking about her son who has ds and how the 8th saved him. At no stage did I hear her suggest shed have had an abortion if it was an option or that she even knew he had it before he was born. So how the he'll can she say it saved him. That's just out and out lies.

On another note, my brother, who I discussed earlier in the thread, had to travel to England this week with his gf to begin the whole process of scans and whatnot to tell them what they already know and to receive the proper treatment they can't get here. All while the families are back here not able to do anything to help. Plus she had her birthday this week while away. I'm sure all this will have lovely memories for her birthday going forward.

Love both my arse.

Very sorry to read about your brother and girlfriend. As you say, very distressing for them and the family and friends for them to be away from home.

Someone posted this yesterday. A heartbreaking example of how the 8th is affecting Irish women.

Zubeneschamali · 18-05-2018 11:37AM

Grayson wrote: »

I think anyone who says that isn't really using that an a reason, they're using that as an excuse. They want to vote one way but don't want to say why.

Yes, that's why I said he's a weasel.

utyh2ikcq9z76b · 18-05-2018 11:38AM

Grayson wrote: »

I think anyone who says that isn't really using that an a reason, they're using that as an excuse. They want to vote one way but don't want to say why.

Your kind of making his point for him

Zubeneschamali · 18-05-2018 11:39AM

seamus wrote: »

It wouldn't happen. Which is really my point.

As soon as there was a sniff of actually enforcing the eighth to the extent it calls for, public opinion would swing massively in favour of repeal.

You'd still want the woman to be a volunteer, not some random vulnerable teen who commits suicide when you sic the law on her.

seamus · 18-05-2018 11:44AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You'd still want the woman to be a volunteer, not some random vulnerable teen who commits suicide when you sic the law on her.

Well, I was thinking more in terms of campaigning to tell lawmakers to change the law so they'll baulk when they realise what would have to be done.

But certainly in terms of a sacrificial lamb, you'd want a volunteer or set of volunteers.

Our experience in the past has been though that women who volunteer en masse to be arrested on these grounds, tend to get ignored.

Marcusm · 18-05-2018 11:49AM

meeeeh wrote: »

I could be wrong on that, I thought there was some request. Anyway similar case would be I think Miss C (One of the court cases) who is now against abortion and is not overly happy she is used as an argument for repeal. But weather she is happy or not her case makes some good reasons for repeal.

My point is that a lot of people will be hurt by discussion about this referendum but if there are valid points about their situation they should be discussed. We can't just ignore parts of reality because someone's feelings are hurt.

Miss C (rape victim taken into care, health board bringing her to U.K. for abortion, parents objected) claims that she never realised that she was going to have an abortion but rather thought she was having the baby in the U.K. no idea if that reflects how she felt at the time etc or is some recovered memory. Fairly poor state of affairs if it was true. I assume the social workers didn’t pressurise he self but maybe she is representing it that way. She was very young so I guess it’s possible she didn’t understand or was overawed. Sad to see that she’s still living the experience as well as the rape.

ELM327 · 18-05-2018 11:50AM

seamus wrote: »

In the event of a No vote, this is exactly what the Yes side should start doing. Start pushing, really, really hard, for Governments to legislate based on what the constitution requires.

Push for all suspected abortions to be investigated, push for harsher criminal convictions. Push to set up a mandatory body to record and investigate all miscarriages.

Expose the insanity of the eighth amendment for the entire country to see. Not the fluffy "tink of de baybees" nonsense, but "Lock up and criminalise women for trying to take control of their own bodies".

Criminal convictions against women importing pills, 14 years.

Criminal convictions for those who bled profusely and went to the doctor, 14 years.

Criminal convictions for the doctor who helped, 14 years.

If we got some in each area then it would really highlight the impact the 8th has. Not saying I want that to happen of course, but if the law was actually applied as it is written then by the letter of the law it is what should be happening,

Zubeneschamali · 18-05-2018 11:51AM

seamus wrote: »

Well, I was thinking more in terms of campaigning to tell lawmakers to change the law so they'll baulk when they realise what would have to be done.

They don't have to change the law - the POLDPA says abortion already carries a 14 year jail sentence.

You'd just have to get an obstreperous volunteer to dare them to enforce it.

SusieBlue · 18-05-2018 11:52AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

They don't have to change the law - the POLDPA says abortion already carries a 14 year jail sentence.

You'd just have to get an obstreperous volunteer to dare them to enforce it.

This is my new favourite word.

Guy:Incognito · 18-05-2018 11:52AM

Is there anywhere outside of Dublin City centre selling the togetherforyes stickers? I order a few bits from the website the other day but it'll probably be next week before I see them

ELM327 · 18-05-2018 11:53AM

seamus wrote: »

Well, I was thinking more in terms of campaigning to tell lawmakers to change the law so they'll baulk when they realise what would have to be done.

But certainly in terms of a sacrificial lamb, you'd want a volunteer or set of volunteers.

Our experience in the past has been though that women who volunteer en masse to be arrested on these grounds, tend to get ignored.

If the 4000 women who will have a termination this year all did it publicly on O'Connell street (well, took the oral pill publicly) instead of going to the UK, that would also expose that the government has no intention of enforcing the requirements of the 8th.

ELM327 · 18-05-2018 11:53AM

SusieBlue wrote: »

This is my new favourite word.

obstreperous and godless repeal harlot are my two new favourites.

Grayson · 18-05-2018 11:55AM

Marcusm wrote: »

Miss C (rape victim taken into care, health board bringing her to U.K. for abortion, parents objected) claims that she never realised that she was going to have an abortion but rather thought she was having the baby in the U.K. no idea if that reflects how she felt at the time etc or is some recovered memory. Fairly poor state of affairs if it was true. I assume the social workers didn’t pressurise he self but maybe she is representing it that way. She was very young so I guess it’s possible she didn’t understand or was overawed. Sad to see that she’s still living the experience as well as the rape.

Even if the health service didn't tell her anything, that's a problem with the health service, not with abortion. And it's a problem with any medical procedure that is performed on a child in care.

Just her · 18-05-2018 11:57AM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

No. Don't you love short answers to long questions?

If you see an issue with it by all means explain it. But I am not seeing one. But in case I lose my reputation as giving long answers, I will expand on it.

A similar philosophical point was explored in a story, later made into the Movie "The Minority Report". The philosophical question was about whether you convict people of a crime before they actually commit it. And the philosophical point that was drilling into was the concept of the difference between evaluating morality based on the present, or based on some future, real or imagined.

I fall into the first camp for the most part. We should make our moral and ethical decisions based on what is true NOW, the data we have NOW. Not data or realities we imagine ourselves having in the future.

NOW the fetus is not a sentient entity. I see no more reason a real person, like a pregnant woman, should have their freedoms, well being and choices curtailed by it any more than I should have mine curtailed in light of a child I might some day plan to have in the future. There is no person here NOW, but there is a pregnant woman NOW, and she has to be the focus of our moral and ethical concern for that reason.

Yes I do, and why not? I wrote a long answer earlier to a poster and no one at all replied, so seems to work better for me to keep it short and to the point.

It's not imagination that the baby/foetus will be sentient given a couple of weeks to develop. They will become sentient as you put it, hence the rush to abort. You were in the same position once as they are now. And people rush to abort to get inside the window you are talking about so they can square it with themselves. The baby is real. You like to use sentience as a way to dismiss their right to life when you know they will be sentient in a short space of time.

....... · 18-05-2018 11:59AM

This post has been deleted.

Zubeneschamali · 18-05-2018 12:03PM

Just her wrote: »

It's not imagination that the baby/foetus will be sentient given a couple of weeks to develop.

So, if not at 12 weeks, then where is the line? Clearly, the line in biology is fertilization, that's when the unique DNA of the individual is formed.

But are we really to say that a single celled organism has the same rights as a grown adult voter simply because it has the potential to become one?

It is a single cell!

Guy:Incognito · 18-05-2018 12:03PM

Ah, this is the lad I was thinking of the other week. Wonder how many of our own fervently anti choice lads have similar stories that didn't make the papers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/the-fix/wp/2017/10/03/gop-rep-repeatedly-promoted-pro-life-stance-a-week-after-reportedly-telling-mistress-to-get-abortion/?noredirect=on

All very well pushing your opinions on others when you don't think it'll affect you.......

Igotadose · 18-05-2018 12:07PM

Posters and the fwncepost the were on stolen from our yard overnight in West Kerry. Reported details to the guards. Unsurprisingly, No posters have shown up on the power poles too. Anyone got the number for reporting the posters on the power poles to Eir?

seamus · 18-05-2018 12:09PM

Report posters on electricity poles to ESB networks.

gmisk · 18-05-2018 12:20PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Ah, this is the lad I was thinking of the other week. Wonder how many of our own fervently anti choice lads have similar stories that didn't make the papers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/the-fix/wp/2017/10/03/gop-rep-repeatedly-promoted-pro-life-stance-a-week-after-reportedly-telling-mistress-to-get-abortion/?noredirect=on

All very well pushing your opinions on others when you don't think it'll affect you.......

Do as I say not as I do....

hypocrites not a shock really :rolleyes:

gmisk · 18-05-2018 12:23PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Ah, this is the lad I was thinking of the other week. Wonder how many of our own fervently anti choice lads have similar stories that didn't make the papers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/the-fix/wp/2017/10/03/gop-rep-repeatedly-promoted-pro-life-stance-a-week-after-reportedly-telling-mistress-to-get-abortion/?noredirect=on

All very well pushing your opinions on others when you don't think it'll affect you.......

He resigned by the way

Just her · 18-05-2018 12:28PM

Grayson wrote: »

Even if the health service didn't tell her anything, that's a problem with the health service, not with abortion. And it's a problem with any medical procedure that is performed on a child in care.

Well they could have talked to her of abortion, termination, ending the pregnancy. All the terms people like to use to make it seem ok. I can definitely understand how she got the wrong end of the stick completely when people don't like/aren't allowed to call it for what it is.

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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