8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

ArmaniJeanss · 18-05-2018 10:44AM

Probably is a genuine Silent No vote out there much like SSM.
But there is also quite possibly a Silent Yes vote which didn't exist for SSM, as there was never any problem declaring yourself a Yes voter 3 years ago.

Hopefully this time theres quite a few people in the pubs and coffee places of Donegal or Roscommon etc nodding away and agreeing with the talk of how everyone should be voting No, whilst secretly thinking they'd quite like their daughters to be able to make their own minds up if the time comes.

ELM327 · 18-05-2018 10:44AM

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Back again lol...what about the Protection of Life During Pregnancy? How could that was brought in? That was as a result of the X case wasn't it? But was only brought in after Savitas death? I accept it doesn't go far enough, but it did bring in situations where abortion was allowed.

It did.
To use a car crash into a pedestrian. It doesn't allow you to warn the pedestrian before the crash, merely to lift the car off the pedestrian once it starts to crush them (but not before).

We are again hamstrung by the 8th. In cases of doubt, the constitution has higher standing than acts of the oireachtas. And this creates doubt. In medical terms, the doctor is limited by the concerns posed by the 8th. Actual concerns about actual or perceived limitations.

gmisk · 18-05-2018 10:44AM

Malayalam wrote: »

I don't understand how people would not tolerate their partner (or close friend, or family member) voting differently from them on matters of conscience. There are so many reasons why one would vote either Yes or No, and to not tolerate one's partner assigning more weight to one aspect over another in contravention of one's own morally weighted stance seems ...well...incredibly intolerant. My opinions often differ fundamentally from my husbands on many areas and vice versa, and thank goodness we afford each other the freedom to have our own opinions without thrashing the gaff.

For me it is important particularly in a partner that they have similar opinions, values and beliefs to me.

For Example - I am gay, would I want to be with a partner who didnt vote yes for SSM? not a bloody chance!

In summary - I will never be the adoring partner of Keith Mills or Paddy Manning...how will I cope?!?!

erica74 · 18-05-2018 10:47AM

meeeeh wrote: »

Sorry but so what. I find many things upsetting but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed. This btw has nothing to with this referendum but seriously annoys me how free speech is curtailed because someone could be upset.

So you have no respect for Down Syndrome Ireland conveying to the public that images of people with down syndrome being used on posters is upsetting people with down syndrome?

This is about so much more than "someone could be upset". People are upset, real people, who a lot of people seem to assume don't "understand" the meaning behind the posters.

ELM327 · 18-05-2018 10:47AM

gmisk wrote: »

For me it is important particularly in a partner that they have similar opinions, values and beliefs to me.

For Example - I am gay, would I want to be with a partner who didnt vote yes for SSM? not a bloody chance!

So I will never be the adoring partner of Keith Mills or Paddy Manning...how will I cope?!?!

For me I don't care if they have different beliefs
Merely that they should be able to carry an intelligent rational debate about why they have those beliefs.

I have not met one person on the NO side that I could consider as meeting that criteria. If my partner gave me a rational reason for voting NO then I could respect that. We'd probably agree that neither of us would vote then as 1 yes 1 no cancels out.

Zubeneschamali · 18-05-2018 10:47AM

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Back again lol...what about the Protection of Life During Pregnancy? How could that was brought in?

The X case clarified what the 8th actually means in 1992.

That made the 1861 legislation on abortion unconstitutional. It should have been replaced immediately.

But politicians were scared of the Prolifers shouting "Abortion on demand!" at them, so they avoided their responsibility, making 2 attempts to amend the Constitution to remove suicide as a reason for abortion, before finally bringing in the POLDPA 25 years late.

Cantona's Collars · 18-05-2018 10:48AM

While scrolling through another site, Redcafe,all I got was ads for the No campaign. They've hijacked a football discussion site on me:(
Nothing to do with my browsing history as not once did I look up anything to do with the No campaign.

erica74 · 18-05-2018 10:49AM

Malayalam wrote: »

I don't understand how people would not tolerate their partner (or close friend, or family member) voting differently from them on matters of conscience. There are so many reasons why one would vote either Yes or No, and to not tolerate one's partner assigning more weight to one aspect over another in contravention of one's own morally weighted stance seems ...well...incredibly intolerant. My opinions often differ fundamentally from my husbands on many areas and vice versa, and thank goodness we afford each other the freedom to have our own opinions without thrashing the gaff.

Well I mean you're talking about much more than just "voting differently". If my husband was planning to vote no, what would happen if I got pregnant and wanted an abortion and he didn't want me to have one? That would potentially be the end of our marriage. I think that couples differing on this referendum is more substantial than couples differing on other matters.

ELM327 · 18-05-2018 10:50AM

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

While scrolling through another site, Redcafe,all I got was ads for the No campaign. They've hijacked a football discussion site on me:(
Nothing to do with my browsing history as not once did I look up anything to do with the No campaign.

All those dollars earmarked for facebook and youtube/google have to be spent somewhere

Zubeneschamali · 18-05-2018 10:50AM

ELM327 wrote: »

For me I don't care if they have different beliefs
Merely that they should be able to carry an intelligent rational debate about why they have those beliefs.

My daughter was telling me her boyfriend was saying that he doesn't like the way the Yes side are treating No voters, and may vote No as a result.

The little weasel.

18-05-2018 10:55AM

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

But would bringing in a law saying that you can treat women who have taken tablets that you haven't prescribed, going against the constitution?

Not 100% sure but the protection of life in pregnancy makes it an offence to procure an abortion. So, they could I guess repeal that law.
But it's only a new law........

18-05-2018 10:56AM

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Probably is a genuine Silent No vote out there much like SSM.
But there is also quite possibly a Silent Yes vote which didn't exist for SSM, as there was never any problem declaring yourself a Yes voter 3 years ago.

Hopefully this time theres quite a few people in the pubs and coffee places of Donegal or Roscommon etc nodding away and agreeing with the talk of how everyone should be voting No, whilst secretly thinking they'd quite like their daughters to be able to make their own minds up if the time comes.

I've been thinking this too. If someone is surrounded by pro lifers (particularly the more militant ones) they know they could get a fairly unpleasant response if they dared to question it. I don't think No voters are as likely to be silent this time as they will be more confident that their position is seen as reasonable compared to the SSM ref. There could be a decent amount of silent Yeses amongst the older generation and in conservative areas.

SusieBlue · 18-05-2018 10:56AM

Malayalam wrote: »

I don't understand how people would not tolerate their partner (or close friend, or family member) voting differently from them on matters of conscience. There are so many reasons why one would vote either Yes or No, and to not tolerate one's partner assigning more weight to one aspect over another in contravention of one's own morally weighted stance seems ...well...incredibly intolerant. My opinions often differ fundamentally from my husbands on many areas and vice versa, and thank goodness we afford each other the freedom to have our own opinions without thrashing the gaff.

I completely disagree.
In my own personal situation, I'm having treatment to prevent cancer, and should I get pregnant unintentionally, that treatment would stop.
Logically, if my boyfriend was voting No, we can presume he wouldn't want me to seek a termination to continue treatment.
He would want me to continue the pregnancy and have the baby, despite the massive risk of developing cancer.
I couldn't be with someone who wouldn't even entertain the idea of going to the UK.
I'd want us to discuss it and reach a mutual choice, but I would absolutely want a termination to be considered.

So far, I don't know what I'd actually do if this was to happen.
I'd love a baby but I don't think I could go through a pregnancy with the heavy burden of cancer on it, and the worry of potentially leaving a baby without a mum.

My boyfriend on the other hand, has said he'd have me booked on the first flight to Liverpool, because even though he also really wants a baby, it wouldn't be worth me getting ill or dying.
He said we could get over the loss of a pregnancy, but not the loss of me.

So I do think its fundamentally important that partners agree on issues such as these. Especially when one partners opinion could limit the healthcare the other receives.

gmisk · 18-05-2018 10:59AM

ELM327 wrote: »

If my partner gave me a rational reason for voting NO then I could respect that. We'd probably agree that neither of us would vote then as 1 yes 1 no cancels out.

But you would secretly sneak out and vote yes?????
You know its the right thing to do!

meeeeh · 18-05-2018 11:00AM

erica74 wrote: »

So you have no respect for Down Syndrome Ireland conveying to the public that images of people with down syndrome being used on posters is upsetting people with down syndrome?

It's not about the respect, it's a belief that conversation should not be limited. Why do you think some topics should not be part of conversation and why should they be limited? What else you think shouldn't be discussed in this debate? Should we maybe not have the referendum because it upsets some people, real people?

Malayalam · 18-05-2018 11:02AM

gmisk wrote: »

For me it is important particularly in a partner that they have similar opinions, values and beliefs to me.

For Example - I am gay, would I want to be with a partner who didnt vote yes for SSM? not a bloody chance!

In summary - I will never be the adoring partner of Keith Mills or Paddy Manning...how will I cope?!?!

Haha i see your point, but I don't find it is the same for me. Himself and myself are incredibly different, always have been, in so many ways...and when we disagree sometimes we have a barney about it, sometimes one or other rolls eyes and walks away, and there are issues we just don't bother to discuss, or at least not regularly. I do listen to his views when they differ from mine, and change my mind if his arguments are persuasive. We both think the other is a good person regardless of beliefs,( and him being sexy helps me ignore his troglodyte opinions, and hopefully vice versa

)
As for disagreeing on a pregnancy continuing or not, it never arose, so I cannot honestly say. The answer in that case would have to come out of any serious discussion we would have together.

ELM327 · 18-05-2018 11:03AM

gmisk wrote: »

But you would secretly sneak out and vote yes?????
You know its the right thing to do!

Oh of course...
Just dont tell herself

gmisk · 18-05-2018 11:04AM

ELM327 wrote: »

Oh of course...
Just dont tell herself

My lips are sealed!

NuMarvel · 18-05-2018 11:04AM

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

But would bringing in a law saying that you can treat women who have taken tablets that you haven't prescribed, going against the constitution?

The 8th doesn't stop that so you wouldn't need a new law for it.

The barrier to accessing treatment in this situation is the criminal penalty of having an illegal abortion. A woman going to a doctor if something goes wrong can't be 100% certain that a doctor won't report her to the Gardaí afterwards.

And that criminal penalty can't be removed while the 8th is in place. Indeed, it's arguable that the 8th requires mandatory reporting of illegal abortions, but in reality no one, even on the No side, is going to push for this or support it.

ELM327 · 18-05-2018 11:05AM

NuMarvel wrote: »

The 8th doesn't stop that so you wouldn't need a new law for it.

The barrier to accessing treatment in this situation is the criminal penalty of having an illegal abortion. A woman going to a doctor if something goes wrong can't be 100% certain that a doctor won't report her to the Gardaí afterwards.

And that criminal penalty can't be removed while the 8th is in place. Indeed, it's arguable that the 8th requires mandatory reporting of illegal abortions, but in reality no one, even on the No side, is going to push for this or support it.

Which is why I stated that, in the event of a no vote, we should push for clarification of this by the Attorney General.

utyh2ikcq9z76b · 18-05-2018 11:06AM

SusieBlue wrote: »

Whatever about the rest of my family, if my boyfriend was voting for or in support of the No campaign I would genuinely be questioning our relationship.
I think its one thing both people in a relationship need to agree on. There isn't room for different views if two partners have two very different ideas about what is appropriate healthcare for one member of the relationship.

In my own situation it would definitely be a deal breaker.

So you have given your boyfriend an ultimatum to vote yes or else. For me that would be a deal breaker

jem · 18-05-2018 11:08AM

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

While scrolling through another site, Redcafe,all I got was ads for the No campaign. They've hijacked a football discussion site on me:(
Nothing to do with my browsing history as not once did I look up anything to do with the No campaign.

Same here and I have been reporting it since 10th may.
reply our ad partners are looking into it...

SusieBlue · 18-05-2018 11:10AM

Eliana Big Pedestrian wrote: »

So you have given your boyfriend an ultimatum to vote yes or else. For me that would be a deal breaker

Nope, I'm all about choice

He wants to vote Yes anyway, he is very passionate about repealing.

But if he was voting No, then yes, I would be reconsidering my relationship.

Which would also be my choice.

ELM327 · 18-05-2018 11:10AM

Eliana Big Pedestrian wrote: »

So you have given your boyfriend an ultimatum to vote yes or else. For me that would be a deal breaker

It is already a deal breaker!

Zubeneschamali · 18-05-2018 11:11AM

Eliana Big Pedestrian wrote: »

So you have given your boyfriend an ultimatum to vote yes or else. For me that would be a deal breaker

So everyone is happy!

And single.

meeeeh · 18-05-2018 11:14AM

Eliana Big Pedestrian wrote: »

So you have given your boyfriend an ultimatum to vote yes or else. For me that would be a deal breaker

I wouldn't give anyone an ultimatum to vote one way or the other. Even in marriage equality I wouldn't overly care because we are straight and the situation wouldn't affect us (unless our kids). But in this case it a situation you could find yourself in. I'm 40 and have two kids, if I got pregnant today I would very strongly consider abortion because I don't want more kids. I wouldn't be a hard case and I would find it awful if my partner insisted I continue with the pregnancy. In the same way as I would find it hard to be with someone so deeply religious that it would affect how we live. This is not imaginary situation that affects other people it's a very real dilemma any couple could have.

erica74 · 18-05-2018 11:14AM

If the 8th amendment is repealed, disability will not be grounds for an abortion anyway so the use of images of children and adults with down syndrome is just another example of misinformation from the No side and confusion caused by their continuous lies.

My Together for Yes t shirt didn't come:(

Repeal the 8th.

seamus · 18-05-2018 11:14AM

ELM327 wrote: »

Which is why I stated that, in the event of a no vote, we should push for clarification of this by the Attorney General.

In the event of a No vote, this is exactly what the Yes side should start doing. Start pushing, really, really hard, for Governments to legislate based on what the constitution requires.

Push for all suspected abortions to be investigated, push for harsher criminal convictions. Push to set up a mandatory body to record and investigate all miscarriages.

Expose the insanity of the eighth amendment for the entire country to see. Not the fluffy "tink of de baybees" nonsense, but "Lock up and criminalise women for trying to take control of their own bodies".

gmisk · 18-05-2018 11:16AM

Eliana Big Pedestrian wrote: »

So you have given your boyfriend an ultimatum to vote yes or else. For me that would be a deal breaker

Maybe read the subsequent posts Susieblue made?

I think if I was in that situation it would be a deal breaker too!
Luckily her partner sounds like a gem who would put her welfare first.

gmisk · 18-05-2018 11:17AM

erica74 wrote: »

If the 8th amendment is repealed, disability will not be grounds for an abortion anyway so the use of images of children and adults with down syndrome is just another example of misinformation from the No side and confusion caused by their continuous lies.

My Together for Yes t shirt didn't come:(

Repeal the 8th.

Id drop them a wee email, i did when badges went missing and they sent out some more.

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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