8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

18-05-2018 09:28AM

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

If the no side wins, is it possible to expand on the law concerning abortion? For example, to allow medical professional treat a woman who has taken abortion pills without fear of jail time for anyone. I appreciate that invites a higher amount of people taking unknown drugs alone, but at least if they do and they go wrong they can get help.

Or can we soften the 'serious threat to life of the woman', to threat to the woman's life?

It's not ideal, but if Yes lose, at about hands completely tied for another 40 or so years until another referendum? Can we campaign to soften the laws?

We cannot bring in any laws which are unconstitutional. So long as the unborn has protection in the constitution, the law cannot go against that.

SusieBlue · 18-05-2018 09:33AM

_Dara_ wrote: »

Out of curiosity, how are your families voting?

Me - Yes
Boyfriend - Yes
Dad - Yes
3 brothers - Yes
Aunty - Yes
Mam - No (so far)

I have another brother and sister who can't vote, but my sister is following the referendum and would be in favour of repeal if she could.

Boyfriends family are a bit weird, no idea how they'll vote, if they even bother.

ELM327 · 18-05-2018 09:33AM

gmisk wrote: »

I know its wikipedia but...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-sixth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_Bill_2018_(Ireland)
This has a very good summary of all the polls and positions.

Interestingly (and this is aimed at you RobertKK and anyone else who claims a split between YES and NO in the obgyn medical world)

The Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists: The executive committee of the Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists within the Royal College of Physicians of Ireland voted 18–0, with one abstention, in favour of repeal.[48]

ArmaniJeanss · 18-05-2018 09:35AM

_Dara_ wrote: »

My husband got on the register! We thought he wouldn’t because he sent the form to Fingal instead of DCC by mistake. Yay!

Out of curiosity, how are your families voting?

Mine:

Me - yes
Huz - yes
Father - no
Mother - yes
Brother - no
Sister - yes
Bro-in-law - yes

I don’t know how my in-laws are voting.

I'm surprised by this, especially the latter one, bearing in mind the health issues that you've had/have. I'd have hoped that would bring home to them the subtleties of the issue.
Is there no chance of 'turning' your brother?

seamus · 18-05-2018 09:37AM

_Dara_ wrote: »

My husband got on the register! We thought he wouldn’t because he sent the form to Fingal instead of DCC by mistake. Yay!

Out of curiosity, how are your families voting?

In my family it's 6-0. In-laws are 2-2 with a fifth person who is never going to reveal their stance.

From looking at other peoples' families it appears to be that a family is either entirely "Yes", or split down the middle. But that may be a proximity effect - my family and I are unlikely to know/socialise with the kind of people who'd be all firm "No"s.

Martina1991 · 18-05-2018 09:38AM

erica74 wrote: »

We were. We were sent a lengthy email a while ago, at least a month ago. We were even told not to post on our personal social media just in case it could be construed as endorsing one or the other in your capacity as an employee of the HSE.

I work in Sligo. We were never told we couldn't get involved in the campaign, then again I work in the lab. I don't know what doctors or nurses were told.

I haven't seen any jumpers or badges for either side. No one was really talking about the referendum at work until that stupid sign went up the side of Ben Bulben. Everyone was in agreement it was disgusting and an awful tactic.

Fr_Dougal · 18-05-2018 09:39AM

Down Syndrome Ireland specifically asked both sides not to use images of people with DS to make their argument as it causes distress to individuals with DS and their families.

This is very disrespectful to both children and adults with Down syndrome and their families. It is also causing a lot of stress to parents. People with Down syndrome should not be used as an argument for either side of this debate.
Down Syndrome Ireland believes that it is up to each individual to make their own decision about which way to vote in the upcoming referendum.

We are respectfully asking both sides of the campaign debate, all political parties and any other interested groups to stop exploiting children and adults with Down syndrome to promote their campaign views.

We would also like to remind campaigners on both sides of the debate that people with Down syndrome listen to the news and read media articles, including social media content. We ask that the tone of the debate is respectful towards all people with disabilities.

And what have the NO side done? Ignored their wishes. SOME of the No side don’t give a damn about people with DS, they’re exploiting them for their own agenda.

SireOfSeth · 18-05-2018 09:41AM

Dressing gown wrote: »

I agree the no side have had better propaganda and convincing speakers that have no problem lying - justified with the mindset to win at all costs.

I myself as a yes voter do not find the ‘my body my choice’ argument compelling enough when the other side tell you if you vote no babies are being slaughtered.

An argument I think the yes side is missing on capitalising on is that voting no is voting to perpetuate the shame culture in Ireland. The shame culture that enables Magdalene laundries and the shame culture that is destroying lives and families in Ireland every day. Once that seed is planted in a person it is very difficult to eradicate.

I’ve a true story for you. In the 90’s a Dublin college girl gets pregnant. Her parents are devout Catholics. She knows her parents love her, but owing to the shame culture Ireland she is terrified of telling them. Some of their best friends are staunch prolife campaigners and she fears she may be ostracised if they find out. So she decided to take care of it. She tells only her best friend. She gets a flight to England and has an abortion. She comes home and tells no one. But the shame eats her up. Years later she decides she has to tell her mother. Her mother is devastated, but not because she had an abortion, but because her daughter was so alone in dealing with it. She tells her she would have helped her with the baby. She is still prolife but she is pro her daughter first. Her daughter swears her to secrecy.

Now the problem in this scenario is not the abailability of an abortion, but the shame of having a baby outside wedlock, and of having an abortion.

The days of frowning on babies out of wedlock are over for the most part. But the shame associated in having an abortion lives on. That is why the no voters are happy for abortion to continue in England and they aren’t bothered about prosecuting girls and women. Because the women prosecute themselves by feeling shame. The state shames you by saying you are not allowed to do it here-we are superior to you and you can go over to the murderers and come back to saintly Ireland, our hands are clean.

Put an end to the shame culture in Ireland. Vote yes.

Great post!!! Thanks for sharing.

ELM327 · 18-05-2018 09:42AM

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

.... the No side don’t give a damn about people ...., they’re exploiting them for their own agenda.

FYP

That's why I like the "love boats" handle, as they want to continue sending our women to the UK.

BabysCoffee · 18-05-2018 09:43AM

Here's how my family are voting

Husband - yes
Dad - yes
2 sisters - yes
4 female cousins - yes
1 male cousin - no - voted no in ssm
Aunt & uncle - no - voted no in ssm

....... · 18-05-2018 09:44AM

This post has been deleted.

freshpopcorn · 18-05-2018 09:48AM

I briefly mentioned the earlier regarding how people in families/etc are voting I know a guy. His partner is involved in the Yes campaign and she think he's voting Yes. However he's voting No but hasn't told her.
Some people do lie to family/etc who are really involved in a campaign. Just don't take anybody for granted.

darem93 · 18-05-2018 09:49AM

_Dara_ wrote: »

Out of curiosity, how are your families voting?

Me - Yes
Mother - Yes
Father - Yes
2 aunts - Yes

My sister would 100% be voting yes too but she's not 18 until August.

However my mother is very much of the mind frame that "no one needs to know which way we're voting, so don't be going around tell everyone we're voting yes". My uncles are very religious and obviously will be voting no, so she'd be scared of upsetting them. :rolleyes:

circadian · 18-05-2018 09:54AM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I briefly mentioned the earlier regarding how people in families/etc are voting I know a guy. His partner is involved in the Yes campaign and she think he's voting Yes. However he's voting No but hasn't told her.
Some people do lie to family/etc who are really involved in a campaign. Just don't take anybody for granted.

Sounds like an argument coming down the line in years to come.

Me - Yes
OH - Yes
FIL - Told us he was a yes

No other family available to vote.

erica74 · 18-05-2018 09:56AM

Martina1991 wrote: »

I work in Sligo. We were never told we couldn't get involved in the campaign, then again I work in the lab. I don't know what doctors or nurses were told.

I haven't seen any jumpers or badges for either side. No one was really talking about the referendum at work until that stupid sign went up the side of Ben Bulben. Everyone was in agreement it was disgusting and an awful tactic.

I just work in admin in a hospital but all staff received an email from a national level saying no campaigning, no social media posts and no speaking to the media etc.

freshpopcorn · 18-05-2018 09:57AM

circadian wrote: »

Sounds like an argument coming down the line in years to come.

I think my point is it's hard to know how anybody will vote because it's such a secret ballet. So, don't rely on anybody.

meeeeh · 18-05-2018 09:57AM

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Down Syndrome Ireland specifically asked both sides not to use images of people with DS to make their argument as it causes distress to individuals with DS and their families.

And what have the NO side done? Ignored their wishes. SOME of the No side don’t give a damn about people with DS, they’re exploiting them for their own agenda.

And Savita's family asked not to use her name for the campaign. While I understand the wishes of both, I think they are rightly ignored. Savita Halapanavar's medical treatment and questions around children with ds are relevant for the discussion.

However I'm always uneasy about using images of children for the campaign they are not able to understand. As I am uneasy about parents plastering pics of their kids all over fb. But that goes for any child not just children with ds.

Tom Mann Centuria · 18-05-2018 09:57AM

erica74 wrote: »

I just work in admin in a hospital but all staff received an email from a national level saying no campaigning, no social media posts and no speaking to the media etc.

Mixed messages then, because locally we were told any social media posts about the referendum should make clear they were personal opinion, but nothing about not discussing it.

Bannasidhe · 18-05-2018 09:58AM

_Dara_ wrote: »

My husband got on the register! We thought he wouldn’t because he sent the form to Fingal instead of DCC by mistake. Yay!

Out of curiosity, how are your families voting?

Mine:

Me - yes
Huz - yes
Father - no
Mother - yes
Brother - no
Sister - yes
Bro-in-law - yes

I don’t know how my in-laws are voting.

Me: Yes
Partner: Yes
Mother: Yes
Father: Yes
Son: Yes
Sister: Yes
Bro-in-Law: Yes

Daughter in law and my Brother can't vote but would have been Yes.

My partners parents are No because hussies will start shagging all round the place if Yes wins. She's working on them. Her Da is wavering but her Ma is gone full mental Iona jacket :rolleyes:

ELM327 · 18-05-2018 09:59AM

meeeeh wrote: »

And Savita's family asked not to use her name for the campaign. While I understand the wishes of both, I think they are rightly ignored. Savita Halapanavar's medical treatment and questions around children with ds are relevant for the discussion.

However I'm always uneasy about using images of children for the campaign they are not able to understand. As I am uneasy about parents plastering pics of their kids all over fb. But that goes for any child not just children with ds.

Savita's father gave express permission for his daughter's story to be used for the "YES" side

erica74 wrote: »

I just work in admin in a hospital but all staff received an email from a national level saying no campaigning, no social media posts and no speaking to the media etc.

They can't regulate your personal life though.

SusieBlue · 18-05-2018 10:01AM

Whatever about the rest of my family, if my boyfriend was voting for or in support of the No campaign I would genuinely be questioning our relationship.
I think its one thing both people in a relationship need to agree on. There isn't room for different views if two partners have two very different ideas about what is appropriate healthcare for one member of the relationship.

In my own situation it would definitely be a deal breaker.

Dressing gown · 18-05-2018 10:03AM

meeeeh wrote: »

And Savita's family asked not to use her name for the campaign. While I understand the wishes of both, I think they are rightly ignored. Savita Halapanavar's medical treatment and questions around children with ds are relevant for the discussion.

However I'm always uneasy about using images of children for the campaign they are not able to understand. As I am uneasy about parents plastering pics of their kids all over fb. But that goes for any child not just children with ds.

No Savitas father supports the yes campaign and approved use of her image in the campaign. However the yes campaign chose not to.

https://evoke.ie/2018/04/11/news/irish-news/savitas-father-backs-yes-campaign

ArmaniJeanss · 18-05-2018 10:03AM

meeeeh wrote: »

And Savita's family asked not to use her name for the campaign. While I understand the wishes of both, I think they are rightly ignored. Savita Halapanavar's medical treatment and questions around children with ds are relevant for the discussion.

Seems fairly clear from her father anyway.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/savita-halappanavar-s-father-urges-yes-vote-in-abortion-referendum-1.3457368
Mr Yalagi said Yes campaigners should use his daughter’s image in their efforts to change the State’s abortion laws.
“Of course. It should be shown. The rules in Ireland about abortion should change . . .
“We are happy people in Ireland remember Savita, and remember her when they are talking about abortion. It is very good people in Ireland are remembering how she died.
“I want people to remember her. It is a long time. It is six years, and the law still has not been changed. I am surprised change has not been implemented. I request that all Irish people vote Yes for this law to change.”

Pherekydes · 18-05-2018 10:06AM

Pherekydes wrote: »

There are 7 adults in our house (8 if you include my daughter who's just about to move into her own place) and the score is 8-0 in favour of repeal.

I must add, in the interests of balance, that the wife's eldest daughter, who has 5 kids herself, is a No, because she's seen some video on FB. :rolleyes:

Wife's sister and family (6 votes) are, as far as I know, all Yes. Wife's two friends, older women not needing abortions, are No.

I think there's a certain demographic that is extremely susceptible to emotional arguments about "killing babies" and "murder".

meeeeh · 18-05-2018 10:06AM

ELM327 wrote: »

Savita's father gave express permission for his daughter's story to be used for the "YES" side

I could be wrong on that, I thought there was some request. Anyway similar case would be I think Miss C (One of the court cases) who is now against abortion and is not overly happy she is used as an argument for repeal. But weather she is happy or not her case makes some good reasons for repeal.

My point is that a lot of people will be hurt by discussion about this referendum but if there are valid points about their situation they should be discussed. We can't just ignore parts of reality because someone's feelings are hurt.

ELM327 · 18-05-2018 10:10AM

meeeeh wrote: »

I could be wrong on that, I thought there was some request. Anyway similar case would be I think Miss C (One of the court cases) who is now against abortion and is not overly happy she is used as an argument for repeal. But weather she is happy or not her case makes some good reasons for repeal.

My point is that a lot of people will be hurt by discussion about this referendum but if there are valid points about their situation they should be discussed. We can't just ignore parts of reality because someone's feelings are hurt.

Her father not only expressed that her image could be used but directly states he "requests the Irish people to vote yes" as the status quo killed his daughter.

We can't ignore parts of reality. We can't ignore reality at all. And regardless of if this passes or fails, 4000 Irish women at least will have abortions this year. Some of them will be teenage girls from secondary school, taking pills they procured online, to induce miscarriage in their bedroom. Bleeding. Scared. Alone.

Wouldn't it be better that they could take these same pills with their GP's help and support?

A yes vote allows safe abortions and regulates them at 12 weeks.

A no vote enshrines the status quo, unsafe abortions up to 24 weeks.

Guy:Incognito · 18-05-2018 10:11AM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Main difference between this and the marriage referendum is they knew gay people either family, friends, friends kids,etc so they could relate to it.
This time however they simply don't know of anybody who had an abortion. So, they find them hard to relate to..

They know them alright. But those people won't tell them of their issues, largely because of the attitudes here.

meeeeh · 18-05-2018 10:15AM

ELM327 wrote: »

Her father not only expressed that her image could be used but directly states he "requests the Irish people to vote yes" as the status quo killed his daughter.

We can't ignore parts of reality. We can't ignore reality at all. And regardless of if this passes or fails, 4000 Irish women at least will have abortions this year. Some of them will be teenage girls from secondary school, taking pills they procured online, to induce miscarriage in their bedroom. Bleeding. Scared. Alone.

Wouldn't it be better that they could take these same pills with their GP's help and support?

A yes vote allows safe abortions and regulates them at 12 weeks.

A no vote enshrines the status quo, unsafe abortions up to 24 weeks.

Just because I don't support limiting discussion because of hurt feelings it doesn't mean I am against the repeal. I am very much for the repeal (although I can't vote) I am also very much in favour of free speech. Hard cases, DS and other disabilities are part of conversation and should be part of conversation regardless what some organization says.

Mr. CooL ICE · 18-05-2018 10:16AM

3 siblings - yes
Father - yes
Mother - probably yes (not sure)

Girlfriend - yes
Girlfriend's family - 1 yes, 3 probably yes (not sure)

As for cousins/aunts/uncles, I don't really know them well enough to know their stances, but can only speculate. I know aunts and uncles that would be hard yeses but live abroad and are ineligible. I have an uncle who is a priest and his closer siblings would be obvious nos. I think the majority of my cousins would be yes.

Hannibal_Smith · 18-05-2018 10:17AM

ELM327 wrote: »

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

If the no side wins, is it possible to expand on the law concerning abortion? For example, to allow medical professional treat a woman who has taken abortion pills without fear of jail time for anyone. I appreciate that invites a higher amount of people taking unknown drugs alone, but at least if they do and they go wrong they can get help.

Or can we soften the 'serious threat to life of the woman', to threat to the woman's life?

It's not ideal, but if Yes lose, at about hands completely tied for another 40 or so years until another referendum? Can we campaign to soften the laws?

The current position cannot be softened without an amendment to the constitution.

This is why the 8th is bad law.

Why can't it be softened? There's the right to life of the unborn, but that has already been diluted by legislation which says where the mother's life is in immediate danger. Why can't legislation go further, without permitting abortion.

It can't all just be over if there's a No vote?

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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