8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

Just her · 16-05-2018 05:44PM

Just her wrote: »

No I was replying to a post about adoption so I was talking about the expenses up until birth

I didn't lose earnings when pregnant, why would you think I did?

Just her · 16-05-2018 05:45PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I never said it was. There is a lot more to being pregnant that the cost of petrol and maternity. You seem to think that because you found your pregnancy so easy that other women should be forced to remain pregnant when they dont want to.

Where did I say I found my pregnancy so easy? Why are we off on a tangent?

NAGDEFI · 16-05-2018 05:49PM

gctest50 wrote: »

Imagine you carried it through and put the child up for adoption

And the child was adopted by one of those "No" people.

Imagine 18 years of that - it'd be like a life sentence

One of those 'No' people. This poster constantly belittles the opposing side under the guise of humour. He adds nothing to the debate and I hope mods take note.

He accused me of being an abuser of women 2 weeks ago.

Just her · 16-05-2018 05:50PM

January wrote: »

You're still being disingenuous.

Nobody is saying that petrol costs and maternity clothes are a real factor in the decision. You quoted that you didn't have any loss of earnings from being pregnant and giving birth, that's fantastic for you but lots of others do and if you already cannot afford to go through pregnancy and birth to just give the baby up for adoption at the end then it's definitely a factor.

I've had 2 replies to your posts go missing January. I didn't have loss of earnings, why would you think I did?

Zubeneschamali · 16-05-2018 05:51PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

I know. It was tongue in cheek. The idea that adoption is not a realistic option (among a suite of possible options shy of abortion) because of all these darn laws getting in the way.

Those darn laws (on the rights of natural parents, for example) are also based on the Constitution.

I would love to see the reaction from the anti-abortion crowd if you announced you were going to weaken family rights in the Constitution so you could take babies off parents and give them to adoptive parents instead. Gay adoptive parents, even!

:pac:

antiskeptic · 16-05-2018 05:58PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Those darn laws (on the rights of natural parents, for example) are also based on the Constitution.

I would love to see the reaction from the anti-abortion crowd if you announced you were going to weaken family rights in the Constitution so you could take babies off parents and give them to adoptive parents instead. Gay adoptive parents, even!

:pac:

Adoption is possible so the rights of the natural parents can be dissolved to that extent. It strikes me that we're in the realm of legislation rather than constitution.

hatrickpatrick · 16-05-2018 06:00PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

In the vast majority of cases, people get pregnant because they willingly engaged in an activity in which pregnancy was a possibility.

It seems a bit churlish to be decrying the cost of a maternity dress, a consequence arising out of a choice you made.

And legalising early-term abortion without a particular reason being required makes those potential consequences more manageable if they do arise, which is the whole point.

erica74 · 16-05-2018 06:01PM

Just her wrote: »

No I was replying to a post about adoption so I was talking about the expenses up until birth

So was everyone who replied to you.

joe40 · 16-05-2018 06:01PM

There is a lot of talk about the mental health problems women face after having an abortion, and I'm sure they very relevant in many cases.
However I can only imagine how difficult it must be to take a child to term and then hand it over. You would spend the rest of your life wondering,how they are getting on.

I would imagine potential mental health would be significant, but not mentioned at all in certain quarters

Zubeneschamali · 16-05-2018 06:01PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Adoption is possible so the rights of the natural parents can be dissolved to that extent. It strikes me that we're in the realm of legislation rather than constitution.

It strikes you wrong.

Calina · 16-05-2018 06:01PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

b) people who have sex cannot escape from under the responsibility that comes with engaging in an activity which can result in a pregnancy.

Men can, historically did and still often do. Women, however, cannot.

Calina · 16-05-2018 06:05PM

Just her wrote: »

January wrote: »

You're still being disingenuous.

Nobody is saying that petrol costs and maternity clothes are a real factor in the decision. You quoted that you didn't have any loss of earnings from being pregnant and giving birth, that's fantastic for you but lots of others do and if you already cannot afford to go through pregnancy and birth to just give the baby up for adoption at the end then it's definitely a factor.

I've had 2 replies to your posts go missing January. I didn't have loss of earnings, why would you think I did?

The fact that you personally did not have loss of earnings cannot be generalized to every woman. This is the point which I believe others would like you to understand.

erica74 · 16-05-2018 06:09PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

My own view is that

a) nothing is done here to enable an environment which does it's best to prevent unwanted pregnancies. And nothing is done to minimize pregnancies turning into crisis pregnancies. Unwanted is a function of both these things. Then there is the obstacles of giving a baby up for adoption

Repealing the 8th is a great place to start in fixing that.

antiskeptic wrote: »

b) people who have sex cannot escape from under the responsibility that comes with engaging in an activity which can result in a pregnancy.

And when a woman finds herself with an unwanted pregnancy, what's your suggestion?

Just her · 16-05-2018 06:14PM

Calina wrote: »

The fact that you personally did not have loss of earnings cannot be generalized to every woman. This is the point which I believe others would like you to understand.

Ok I understand that. I'd also like anyone reading this thread to not worry that they are definitely going to lose earnings during pregnancy as that is not automatically the case. I take it people are referring to perhaps being off sick where an employer doesn't top up their wages?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 16-05-2018 06:17PM

I'd take responsibility should I become pregnant. Have my passport in date, know who to contact, and I'm promptly take my responsible old self off to have an abortion.

January · 16-05-2018 06:17PM

Or being on maternity leave when employers don't top up payments... like you can't just head straight back to work after having a baby. You need time to recover, whether you're looking after that baby or not. Even people in the US get 6 weeks maternity leave.

Wrongway1985 · 16-05-2018 06:17PM

Robyn_14 wrote: »

Debate on Newstalk now...our good friend Maria Steen is on

Sadly another typical performance jogged around one specific question regarding facilitation of a teenage rape victim. She went all out to get yes reps to show people that they acknowledged a baby was involved which they never suggested they didnt, a hatchet job is always at the core of her involvement.

erica74 · 16-05-2018 06:20PM

Esmeralda Inexpensive Balloonist wrote: »

I'd take responsibility should I become pregnant. Have my passport in date, know who to contact, and I'm promptly take my responsible old self off to have an abortion.

Same as. My sister and I have had "the boat to England plan" mapped out for nearly 15 years now, we know exactly what, how and where.

FrancieBrady · 16-05-2018 06:21PM

Well I am done with the debate and have made my mind up to definitively vote Yes.

The No side have lied and manipulated right through this campaign and have turned a discussion about what should have been women's healthcare and choice into a familiar clinging to the some moral nirvana that generations of Irish people have wished/and pretended existed and who covered up and brushed under the carpet anything that showed otherwise.

There is no debating with mentalities like that.

erica74 · 16-05-2018 06:23PM

Just her wrote: »

Ok I understand that. I'd also like anyone reading this thread to not worry that they are definitely going to lose earnings during pregnancy as that is not automatically the case.

However, it is a possibility for every single pregnancy because every single pregnancy is different.

As I already said, every woman I know who has been pregnant had expenses far above and beyond what you describe.

Just her wrote: »

I take it people are referring to perhaps being off sick where an employer doesn't top up their wages?

Or being on maternity leave where an employer doesn't top up their wages?

gctest50 · 16-05-2018 06:24PM

erica74 wrote: »

Same as. My sister and I have had "the boat to England plan" mapped out for nearly 15 years now, we know exactly what, how and where.

might give some insightt

Calina · 16-05-2018 06:26PM

Just her wrote: »

Calina wrote: »

The fact that you personally did not have loss of earnings cannot be generalized to every woman. This is the point which I believe others would like you to understand.

Ok I understand that. I'd also like anyone reading this thread to not worry that they are definitely going to lose earnings during pregnancy as that is not automatically the case. I take it people are referring to perhaps being off sick where an employer doesn't top up their wages?

This is not actually reassuring to someone who may be precarious work wise.

Just her · 16-05-2018 06:26PM

Could I ask pro choice advocates if the there is a point in pregnancy at which they are uncomfortable with abortion, i.e at how many weeks would they disagree with abortion, if at all. Apologies I'm sure this has been asked before but I wouldn't know where to start to find answers on the thread

ShowMeTheCash · 16-05-2018 06:27PM

I was actually going to sit this referendum out, as a man it is not something I am ever going to have to worry about as a primary concern.
I do however understand the emotive arguments from the yes and the no campaign.

But my decision to vote is because of the no campaign.
I drove the length of Donegal this morning and words used on the billboards I passed.

"Killing" and "Murder" seem to be the top two emotive words used, then I look at the facebook arguments and the comments being used here also.
Any medical professional who gives his/her expert medical opinion is to be demonized if it is not in line with someones own views.

Personally I would never advise someone to have an abortion but would not judge someone if they did.
I would go as far to say anyone having an abortion due to a failure around using birth control or being reckless needs to think really hard about what they are about to do.

The no campaign however started this "pro-abortion" tag line.
To suggest someone is pro abortion is simply dumb! No-one is pro-abortion......

The justifications for abortion for me is on a spectrum ranging from:
I cannot get on the cancer trail that might save my life to the I got drunk and had a one night stand and now I am pregnant....

Personally I see real failings in our health service whereby we shifted the burden to the UK.
As a nation we do not even know how many abortions happen to Irish citizens... Something typically Irish about burying our heads in the sand.

I am anti-abortion but I am also pro-choice.
An abortion is a tragedy and when I look at the no campaign I just see a lot of angry opinionated mainly woman and mainly religious people but not always, who want to force their views onto others.
When you have been turned down on a medical trail or have been raped or have underlying health concerns that put you at high risk during a pregnancy or you are told your child is going to have such a poor quality of life that it is not worth putting the child and the family through such an ordeal then perhaps I will listen to that voice.

But even then, if it is the choice of the mother to continue with the pregnancy I would respect that choice, if it is the choice of the mother to terminate I would respect that also, I think ultimately every potential mother needs to do what is right for her and only then can she do what is right for any children she might have.

My decision to vote yes on the 25th is inline with what I already thought by my decision to actually turn out for this vote is due to the nature of the No campaign and all their BS and tatics duing this campaign.

I would say a lot of men I talk to also feel this way....

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/save-the-8th-denies-trying-to-blindside-and-fool-people-with-referendum-booklets-843224.html

joe40 · 16-05-2018 06:28PM

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/abroad/why-i-m-travelling-home-from-london-to-vote-no-to-abortion-1.3497457?mode=amp

Is it not a bit ironic or even hypocritical to choose to live in a country that allows abortion but then vote to prevent it in a different country.
If the law is so repulsive to you how can you freely live in a country that approves that law.

16-05-2018 06:31PM

This has probably been brought up a few times so apologies.

I've decided I'm going to go canvassing (for Yes!) tomorrow evening and hopefully up until the end of next week. Haven't gone yet as I've been a bit scared tbh...not sure of the reaction and what kind of things I should say to people.

Who here in this thread has been out canvassing for Yes? Any tips for me? Bit terrified but I'm more terrified of a No vote so feel like I have to go out and talk to people...

Dressing gown · 16-05-2018 06:31PM

Some food for thought:

Pregnancy and birth is dangerous. Every day 830 women die from preventable causes related to pregnancy and childbirth. 99% of this is in the developing world, but it demonstrates how dangerous it is and that demanding a woman to stay pregnant and give birth is demanding her to potentially risk her life.
Source: http://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/maternal-mortality

A few conditions that are very common in pregnancy:

Depression (1 in 10 pregnancies )
https://www.bmj.com/content/352/bmj.i1547

Urinary incontinence (up to 1 in 2 pregnancies)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3671107/

Thyroid problems (2-3% rising to 9% post pregnancy)
https://www.bjfm.co.uk/thyroid-disorders-in-pregnancy

Gestational diabetes (1 in 20 pregnancies)
https://www.tommys.org/pregnancy-information/pregnancy-complications/gestational-diabetes

Insomnia (52% in this study, more common on US reference)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3349327/#!po=54.2553
http://americanpregnancy.org/pregnancy-health/insomnia-during-pregnancy/

Tokophobia (Up to 1 in 10 expectant mothers).
Tokophobia is the name for the pathological fear of giving birth..
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3830168/

I don’t have time to reference or even think of them all but a few others are Blood pressure issues, hyperemisus gravidarium, shortness of breath,Stretch marks, snoring, Severe itching, Indigestion, Mood swings.

Just something to think about as being ok to ask someone else to experience (and says nothing for the birth itself, or actually raising a child).

Tipsy McSwagger · 16-05-2018 06:32PM

Didn't think I was registered but got my voting card today, that's one more Yes vote added.

robarmstrong · 16-05-2018 06:32PM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

One of those 'No' people. This poster constantly belittles the opposing side under the guise of humour. He adds nothing to the debate and I hope mods take note.

He accused me of being an abuser of women 2 weeks ago.

If you have a problem with a poster PM a mod, otherwise don't detract from the thread.

Back to relevance - I had some no canvassers at my door earlier today, couldn't answer questions regarding cases of uterine abnormalities, rape, or incestuous circumstances.

Asked me why focus on the hard case so I countered with why aren't they? Asked them why sympathise with these hard cases but draw the line there, each case is unique and could be hard in it's own right, that repealing the 8th would lead to guaranteed care and support for these hard cases whilst retaining it would just delay the care and support.

Asked me would I consider changing my mind despite that and I said nope, they politely thanked me for my time and apologized for disturbing me. Overall it was pleasant, they were courteous and they listened. They also accepted that some of their posters were infact misleading and were more than happy to accept the evidence disproving it too.

It was a pleasant change from previous discussions.

mc25 · 16-05-2018 06:39PM

erica74 wrote: »

Same as. My sister and I have had "the boat to England plan" mapped out for nearly 15 years now, we know exactly what, how and where.

I have a savings account that's the unofficial "boat to england" account. If I don't use it (in the next 20 or so years/until legislation passes) it'll go to charity. But it's one of the main reasons I'm voting to repeal - I mean what kind of country are we that I feel the need to do this???

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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