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8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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Comments

  • #6962
    PressRun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,198 ✭✭✭PressRun


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    You can converse all you like, but you won't find 4000 suitable adoptive or foster families per year, no way.

    So you can either sell the babies off to rich Americans, or put them into orphanages.

    That's the reality. The only thing preventing this from happening is the fact that Irish women can access abortion in Britain or via illegal pills.

    Never understood the "just adopt them!" argument. The nightmare logistics aside, the issue is surrounding pregnancy, not child rearing. People who seek abortions are unable to carry a pregnancy to term, for whatever reason. Adoption is not a solution to that.


  • #6963
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    PressRun wrote: »
    . People who seek abortions are unable to carry a pregnancy to term, for whatever reason. Adoption is not a solution to that.

    :confused:

    ....but there may not be a solution to that until medical science advances...

    I don't really get what you're trying to say?


  • #6964
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    'Hey kids! Mammy is going to have another baby, but we're not going to keep it because we cannot afford another one, we're going to give it away to another family.'

    That'd be a fun conversation to have...


  • #6965
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    January wrote: »
    'Hey kids! Mammy is going to have another baby, but we're not going to keep it because we cannot afford another one, we're going to give it away to another family.'

    That'd be a fun conversation to have...

    Well...

    We already tell our kids that the oldest came from M&S

    The middle one from Tesco's

    And the youngest from Lidl

    Guess we've got the groundwork done :pac:


  • #6966
    PressRun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,198 ✭✭✭PressRun


    wexie wrote: »
    :confused:

    ....but there may not be a solution to that until medical science advances...

    I don't really get what you're trying to say?

    What I'm saying is that adoption is not a solution to an unwanted pregnancy, as stated above.


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  • #6967
    Just her
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 171 ✭✭Just her


    January wrote: »
    'Hey kids! Mammy is going to have another baby, but we're not going to keep it because we cannot afford another one, we're going to give it away to another family.'

    That'd be a fun conversation to have...

    I sometimes think that's part of the reason abortion is chosen over adoption/keeping the baby, a sort of social stigma perhaps around giving a baby up for adoption. It's a pity adoption wasn't more socially acceptable.


  • #6968
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    It's not a social stigma, it's more that I wouldn't want my children to know the financial difficulties we have/had when it's not for them to worry about.


  • #6969
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    PressRun wrote: »
    What I'm saying is that adoption is not a solution to an unwanted pregnancy, as stated above.

    Ha, just noticed I completely misread it as :

    people who seek adoptions

    Makes more sense now :o


  • #6970
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    So you can either sell the babies off to rich Americans...

    the alternative is to abort them.
    That's the reality


  • #6971
    Just her
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 171 ✭✭Just her


    January wrote: »
    It's not a social stigma, it's more that I wouldn't want my children to know the financial difficulties we have/had when it's not for them to worry about.

    Well it may not be a social stigma for you personally, but I believe others in that position may find it so if they are pregnant and not keeping the baby


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  • #6972
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Imagine you carried it through and put the child up for adoption

    And the child was adopted by one of those "No" people.

    Imagine 18 years of that - it'd be like a life sentence


  • #6973
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    erica74 wrote: »
    in order to be "suitable" one parent from the adoptive family must not be working in order to be successful in adopting a child in Ireland.

    We can change the Constitution, but we can't change the law.

    We have to declare ourselves unfit to be a parent in order to put a child up for adoption (another law that can be changed) but we have to give no reason why we're unfit to be a parent in aborting the child. Any reason will do.


  • #6974
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,812 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    Or kill them

    Mod: This is the type of antagonistic rubbish that caused this thread to receive a semi-nuking yesterday. Any more of this crap and you're gone from the thread.

    Everybody else, remember to ignore posts like this. Report them and move on


  • #6975
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Dole Scrounging Vegan Crossfitter wrote: »
    Mod: This is the type of antagonistic rubbish that caused this thread to receive a semi-nuking yesterday. Any more of this crap and you're gone from the thread.

    Everybody else, remember to ignore posts like this. Report them and move on

    Apols. Edited.


  • #6976
    Dressing gown
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 212 ✭✭Dressing gown


    BBC article on the right to life

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/abortion/child/alive_1.shtml#top


  • #6977
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #6978
    Wrongway1985
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Wrongway1985


    The hard shoulder on newstalk have a debate on the issue in a few mins.


  • #6979
    Dressing gown
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 212 ✭✭Dressing gown


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    We can change the Constitution, but we can't change the law.

    We have to declare ourselves unfit to be a parent in order to put a child up for adoption (another law that can be changed) but we have to give no reason why we're unfit to be a parent in aborting the child. Any reason will do.

    On the contrary the law is far easier to change than the constitution. And at the moment there is no law permitting abortion to change.


  • #6980
    captbarnacles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,972 ✭✭✭captbarnacles


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I was amazed reading about how during pregnancy all the organs are pushed up and compressed with unpleasant side effects. I suppose it's obvious it has to happen but hadn't thought of it before.

    Just an inconvenience? really? That is just a tiny part of how demanding a pregnancy is and on that alone I would reserve the right not to continue a pregnancy.


  • #6981
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    There's enough of a gap between my brother and i for me to clearly remember him being born. The thought of trying to process at that age that he was being put up for adoption ...I know what would have been going through my head. I'd be in therapy right now.


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  • #6982
    Just her
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 171 ✭✭Just her


    ....... wrote: »
    I think there probably is a social stigma around it.

    But far more relevant (to me) is the fact that youd have to totally disrupt your life, miss work for months, have medical expenses, possibly not be able to pay the mortgage, have your body changed and possibly damaged, have to explain yourself to everyone who asked you where the baby was afterwards (your own family and friends and in work), have to spend months trying to recover your fitness/physique/physical and mental health.

    I just wouldnt even consider it an option and that is totally ignoring how barbaric it would be to have to hand the baby over and possibly screw them up for life as a result.

    I barely have time to take a weeks annual leave for a holiday, there is no way I would sign up for months and months of bodily changes and medical expenses.

    Sorry I don't know your circumstances, I didn't miss any work before I had my baby, a few doctors appointments just that all employees are obliged to allow you attend, no medical expenses as it's all covered under the mother and infant scheme which is available to all in Ireland, and no loss of earnings, I was never fit lol, I haven't read all your posts maybe your circumstances are different


  • #6983
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Just her wrote: »
    Sorry I don't know your circumstances, I didn't miss any work before I had my baby, a few doctors appointments just that all employees are obliged to allow you attend, no medical expenses as it's all covered under the mother and infant scheme which is available to all in Ireland, and no loss of earnings, I was never fit lol, I haven't read all your posts maybe your circumstances are different

    You sound really lucky to have had such a wonderful, supportive experience.


  • #6984
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Dressing gown wrote: »
    On the contrary the law is far easier to change than the constitution.

    I know. It was tongue in cheek. The idea that adoption is not a realistic option (among a suite of possible options shy of abortion) because of all these darn laws getting in the way.


    And at the moment there is no law permitting abortion to change.

    Yet we've had a Supreme Court Ruling which liberalized the law under the 8th. And the 2013 Act which both liberalized the law and provided more clarity in what to do in cases where the mothers life could be at risk.

    Have we wrung the knackers out of the 8th?


  • #6985
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    You sound really lucky to have had such a wonderful, supportive experience.

    Legislation can render a lot more luck to a lot more people. It only takes a will.


  • #6986
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Just her wrote: »
    Sorry I don't know your circumstances, I didn't miss any work before I had my baby, a few doctors appointments just that all employees are obliged to allow you attend, no medical expenses as it's all covered under the mother and infant scheme which is available to all in Ireland, and no loss of earnings, I was never fit lol, I haven't read all your posts maybe your circumstances are different

    No medical expenses but the expenses of travelling to and from the hospital for appointments, for maternity clothes, for taking the time off to give birth and recover afterwards (let's say 6 weeks, especially if you have to have a cesarean).

    No loss of earnings? Really?


  • #6987
    Just her
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 171 ✭✭Just her


    Esmeralda Inexpensive Balloonist wrote: »
    There's enough of a gap between my brother and i for me to clearly remember him being born. The thought of trying to process at that age that he was being put up for adoption ...I know what would have been going through my head. I'd be in therapy right now.

    I wonder how do parents tell their other children if they aborted a sibling, or what effect that has on them, or is it usually forever kept a secret....


  • #6988
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Just her wrote: »
    I wonder how do parents tell their other children if they aborted a sibling, or what effect that has on them, or is it usually forever kept a secret....

    Mine don't know yet, they're young still. If they asked me when they were older I'd be honest with them about it.


  • #6989
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    Just her wrote: »
    I wonder how do parents tell their other children if they aborted a sibling, or what effect that has on them, or is it usually forever kept a secret....

    You wonder that? Really? Being a parent yourself you couldn't make a wild guess?


  • #6990
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Just her wrote: »
    I wonder how do parents tell their other children if they aborted a sibling, or what effect that has on them, or is it usually forever kept a secret....

    Well I can't say I've ever been in that situation but we were quite poor growing up, I also have a disabled brother, if my parents told me my mam had aborted one of my siblings I'd completely understand why and would have no reason to judge.
    They are decent loving people & I know that decision wouldn't have been made lightly.

    I imagine a lot of people who keep their abortions secret do so because of fears of judgment and persecution from outsiders, which I think actually reflects worse on our society than it does on the woman who is shamed into keeping quiet.


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  • #6991
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


This discussion has been closed.
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