8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

Sofiztikated · 13-05-2018 04:15PM

smartz wrote: »

The victim.

Then anyone who requires an abortion will say they were raped.

They're already going to England or further, ordering pills of the internet, or cruder methods.

wexie · 13-05-2018 04:17PM

smartz wrote: »

Interesting points, I' not fully convinced it is entirely unworkable though. Obviously if the same standards of criminal cases are upheld then the process would take too long and risk retraumatising the victim. But is a simple assertion is all that is required then that may be avoided. Obviously such a system is open to abuse but I don't believe many woman would abuse it.

Okay so, lets work this through.

Lets say the system gets implemented like that. Would the people who the assertion is made to have any kind of reporting duty?

Underage girl comes in claiming she was raped by a relative and is now pregnant. Would they be obliged to report it? What happens next? What happens if the girl made the assertion because she wanted an abortion but it wasn't rape?

Work this all the way through in one case, now multiply it by a 1000. How often would this cause problems, where are the resources to cope with these problems going to come from? Look at the current state of the HSE, does it strike you as an organisation that's capable of dealing with all of this added onto their workload?

What about someone who is too traumatised by the rape to talk about it?

Aside from the whole choice issue I really do not think there's a system that could be workable.

Tom Mann Centuria · 13-05-2018 04:17PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Then anyone who requires an abortion will say they were raped.

They're already going to England or further, ordering pills of the internet, or cruder methods.

And get charged with wasting police time? Or false reporting or whatever criminal offence is appropriate.

13-05-2018 04:18PM

smartz wrote: »

Okay, what would peoples main concerns be with a regime which allowed termination in the case of rape/incest/FFA/health concerns but not otherwise? Is it purely because (1) you feel it is unworkable/logistically impossible or (2) because you feel the woman's right to choose, based on social/economic/familial circumstances, outweighs the unborn/fetus' right to life?

Firstly, the important thing to me is repealing the 8th because of the way it teats women, basically 2nd class citizens not in charge of our own life & health.
Secondly, when it comes to abortion, as the years have passed I have mellowed more & more, life is not black & white, I try not to judge people & try to put myself in their shoes.
So, basically I cannot judge any woman for the reason she wants or needs an abortion.
& most important, I believe you cannot force women to be pregnant. Forcing women to breed, like animals really. They did it for years here & look how that turned out.

smartz · 13-05-2018 04:18PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Then anyone who requires an abortion will say they were raped.
.

I don't believe they would, obviously some small percentage would.

Ave Sodalis · 13-05-2018 04:21PM

smartz wrote: »

Obviously such a system is open to abuse but I don't believe many woman would abuse it.

I'd like to think they wouldn't, but when you think about the amount of women willing to put their health and lives at risk, rather than face a pregnancy, I don't think merely having to state you've been raped would stop anyone. When you couple the amount of desperate women who would resort to using a coathanger, or drinking themselves into a coma, with the amount of women who have no problem falsely accusing a man of rape anyway, then you have a significant amount of women who would claim they were raped in order to have an abortion.

Sofiztikated · 13-05-2018 04:23PM

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

And get charged with wasting police time? Or false reporting or whatever criminal offence is appropriate.

Who said anything about the police?

So she has to go to the police, file a report, wait for an arrest to be made, go through the courts, and maybe get a conviction? Then the child will be starting school.

At the moment, there's up to 14 years imprisonment for an abortion. You think a mild slap on the wrist will work?

dudara · 13-05-2018 04:28PM

smartz wrote: »

I don't believe they would, obviously some small percentage would.

I wish that was the case, but I fear you are underestimating what a woman will do when she doesn’t want to be pregnant. The stories of back street abortions, wire hangers, scalding hot baths, drinking gin, falling down stairs all exist for a reason. When a woman doesn’t want to be pregnant and can’t access abortion, she will turn to other means. A lie saying you were raped is far easier than any of the methods I’ve outlined above.

Paranoid Bob · 13-05-2018 04:28PM

smartz wrote: »

Okay, what would peoples main concerns be with a regime which allowed termination in the case of rape/incest/FFA/health concerns but not otherwise? Is it purely because (1) you feel it is unworkable/logistically impossible or (2) because you feel the woman's right to choose, based on social/economic/familial circumstances, outweighs the unborn/fetus' right to life?

You could attempt to put together a scheme that allowed for abortion only in those cases, but there are practical problems.
Certainly in the case of pregnancy from rape; proving rape takes a long time, so you would need to have a different system to allow the rape to be alleged, accepted and the abortion completed before the pregnancy progressed to the point where that was too dangerous. This is where the talk of 'rape committees' starts and that is just a non-runner in my mind.

Where there are health problems of fatal fetal abnormalities; it may be possible to describe an arrangement where the doctor, in consultation with the patient, decides whether an abortion is appropriate. Again this does not really stand up to close scrutiny. You can read the 'in her shoes' stories for examples, but people will often have to choose between different treatments with different risks, and reasonable people can disagree on the best option. Do we then start seeing cases of women going to court for the right to get a second opinion on their cancer treatment?

For me the simplest point is this: repealing the 8th is the beginning of this conversation. It is not the end. As long as the 8th is in place we cannot explore any options; with the 8th repealed the law can evolve to meet the needs of women and our society.

Tom Mann Centuria · 13-05-2018 04:28PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Who said anything about the police?

So she has to go to the police, file a report, wait for an arrest to be made, go through the courts, and maybe get a conviction? Then the child will be starting school.

At the moment, there's up to 14 years imprisonment for an abortion. You think a mild slap on the wrist will work?

If we're discussing your notion women would all just claim rape for their abortion.
Criminal record isn't a slap on the wrist, and yes, I think most women would prefer not to get a criminal record.

smartz · 13-05-2018 04:28PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Who said anything about the police?

So she has to go to the police, file a report, wait for an arrest to be made, go through the courts, and maybe get a conviction? Then the child will be starting school.

At the moment, there's up to 14 years imprisonment for an abortion. You think a mild slap on the wrist will work?

I'm talking more about a medical-led service, entirely separate to any criminal investigation which would obviously drag on too long.

spookwoman · 13-05-2018 04:29PM

smartz wrote: »

Okay, what would peoples main concerns be with a regime which allowed termination in the case of rape/incest/FFA/health concerns but not otherwise? Is it purely because (1) you feel it is unworkable/logistically impossible or (2) because you feel the woman's right to choose, based on social/economic/familial circumstances, outweighs the unborn/fetus' right to life?

My own opinion is I have no right to tell another person they cannot have an abortion. I don't know their reasons and this pregnancy will affected their life not mine.

kylith · 13-05-2018 04:30PM

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

And get charged with wasting police time? Or false reporting or whatever criminal offence is appropriate.

So a woman who has been raped would be charged with filing a false report and wasting police time if they didn’t find her story believable enough?

Tom Mann Centuria · 13-05-2018 04:30PM

smartz wrote: »

I'm talking more about a medical-led service, entirely separate to any criminal investigation which would obviously drag on too long.

I doubt the state would allow reports of rape in one state service (the hse) not to be forwarded to another state service (the Garda). Then it is would have to be investigated.

bootpaws · 13-05-2018 04:31PM

smartz wrote: »

I don't believe they would, obviously some small percentage would.

We couldn't even have any system like that while the 8th is retained. Personally of course, I disagree with women having to say they were raped in order to have a pregnancy terminated. It seems strange and unnecessary.

But if you truly believe that women who are raped should be spared the trauma of being forced to carry to term, then you need to vote Yes.

All of these details can be protested, lobbied for, discussed, fixed, etc but only if the 8th is repealed. While it stays, women can still be denied cancer treatments, or other healthcare.

Rape victims will have to birth their rapist's baby, women will have to carry their dying wanted babies inside of them, women will be left in agony waiting to start dying before doctors can legally intervene.

I understand that for some people it's a very complex matter that is close to their hearts. But if you think the things I listed above sound wrong, frightening, and dangerous, then you must use your vote to help us get that amendment out of the constitution.

From there we can discuss, we can lobby, we can see what laws work and what don't. From where we are currently, we can do none of that, and women will continue to suffer and die.

wexie · 13-05-2018 04:32PM

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

And get charged with wasting police time? Or false reporting or whatever criminal offence is appropriate.

How would we decide that it was false reporting? Who would decide?

What would the benchmark for that be?

No conviction for the accused means the complainant gets done for false reporting? .....See where this is going?

EDIT : I'd have to say Tom I get the impression you're playing devils advocate here rather than actually believe this would be a workable system.

Sofiztikated · 13-05-2018 04:34PM

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

If we're discussing your notion women would all just claim rape for their abortion.
Criminal record isn't a slap on the wrist, and yes, I think most women would prefer not to get a criminal record.

Neither is 14 years in prison, but women still risk it.

But yes, most women would prefer not to have a criminal record.

pitifulgod · 13-05-2018 04:34PM

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

If we're discussing your notion women would all just claim rape for their abortion.
Criminal record isn't a slap on the wrist, and yes, I think most women would prefer not to get a criminal record.

You realise for many women that they never discuss their rape? It's an incredibly difficult scenario and you're putting even more pressure on them and in addition to this, wishing to treat them like a criminal.

Tom Mann Centuria · 13-05-2018 04:39PM

Listen lads, I'm discussing a scenario I don't even think is appropriate, it's hypothetical. As you would see from my post a short while ago.

But if the state went the way of aborting for rape, then yes, I think it would be more difficult than a woman just turning up at a clinic and saying I've been raped and getting their abortion as has been posited by another poster. I think there would be repercussions and it would be more difficult.

Sofiztikated · 13-05-2018 04:40PM

smartz wrote: »

I'm talking more about a medical-led service, entirely separate to any criminal investigation which would obviously drag on too long.

Then its easier to continue to England or get the pills.

Essien · 13-05-2018 04:41PM

Jaysus, yer man John Waters is doing a great job for the yes side on TV3 there now. Keep it up lad.

pitifulgod · 13-05-2018 04:42PM

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

Listen lads, I'm discussing a scenario I don't even think is appropriate, it's hypothetical. As you would see from my post a short while ago.

But if the state went the way of aborting for rape, then yes, I think it would be more difficult than a woman just turning up at a clinic and saying I've been raped and getting their abortion as has been posited by another poster. I think there would be repercussions and it would be more difficult.

It would be adding to emotional trauma and it shouldn't be viewed as lightly as you are.

Sofiztikated · 13-05-2018 04:43PM

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

Listen lads, I'm discussing a scenario I don't even think is appropriate, it's hypothetical. As you would see from my post a short while ago.

But if the state went the way of aborting for rape, then yes, I think it would be more difficult than a woman just turning up at a clinic and saying I've been raped and getting their abortion as has been posited by another poster. I think there would be repercussions and it would be more difficult.

The repercussions already exist.

Tom Mann Centuria · 13-05-2018 04:43PM

pitifulgod wrote: »

It would be adding to emotional trauma and it shouldn't be viewed as lightly as you are.

Fcking hell, viewing what lightly? Where have I viewed anything lightly?

seamus · 13-05-2018 05:24PM

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

Listen lads, I'm discussing a scenario I don't even think is appropriate, it's hypothetical. As you would see from my post a short while ago.

But if the state went the way of aborting for rape, then yes, I think it would be more difficult than a woman just turning up at a clinic and saying I've been raped and getting their abortion as has been posited by another poster. I think there would be repercussions and it would be more difficult.

It's just not realistic though. A woman turns up six weeks pregnant says that she was jumped about a month ago by some random guy who raped her and then fled. She said nothing to anyone at the time because she just wanted to forget and move on, but now she's pregnant and needs an abortion.

How do you decide whether her story is valid, and ensure that all valid stories get "accepted"?

You can't.

We should not end up in a situation where a rape victim is forced to continue a pregnancy because she failed to tick all the right boxes on the form or wasn't "sad" enough in an interview. That is unacceptable.

In order to design a "rape assessment" system that ensures all victims can access abortion, you have to make the system so loose as to be utterly meaningless. You have to make it so loose that any woman can access abortion by ticking a "rape" box on a form and nothing else.

So you may as well just leave it open rather than fooling ourselves that we have a "rape only" abortion regime.

13-05-2018 05:42PM

About 18 months ago, in work, we were discussing this very issue. One of my supervisors said that there should not be any abortions unless in cases of rape or ffa etc.
He appeared to have that attitude we know here so well, girls running around opening their legs for anyone..... Etc etc...... Shouldn't have abortions..... Should have to live with the consequences...... Etc etc. You know the spiel....

So, I asked him should everyone who finds herself pregnant because of rape, be allowed an abortion? Yes, he said. Not fair to put the poor girl through the added trauma...........
So, I asked him one question:
what happens if some girl you know, that you happen to judge and being 'one of those girls' basically a little slutty female, gets raped?
What is she finds herself pregnant because of that rape? Should she be allowed an abortion?
He didn't know what to say. He couldn't decide.

& that from what I can see on this thread is the same problem a lot of pro life people have. Too judgemental.

Tom Mann Centuria · 13-05-2018 05:46PM

seamus wrote: »

It's just not realistic though. A woman turns up six weeks pregnant says that she was jumped about a month ago by some random guy who raped her and then fled. She said nothing to anyone at the time because she just wanted to forget and move on, but now she's pregnant and needs an abortion.

How do you decide whether her story is valid, and ensure that all valid stories get "accepted"?

You can't.

We should not end up in a situation where a rape victim is forced to continue a pregnancy because she failed to tick all the right boxes on the form or wasn't "sad" enough in an interview. That is unacceptable.

In order to design a "rape assessment" system that ensures all victims can access abortion, you have to make the system so loose as to be utterly meaningless. You have to make it so loose that any woman can access abortion by ticking a "rape" box on a form and nothing else.

So you may as well just leave it open rather than fooling ourselves that we have a "rape only" abortion regime.

Yeah, I'm not arguing about someone else's idea anymore, I'm sure you're right.

13-05-2018 05:56PM

smartz wrote: »

I don't believe they would, obviously some small percentage would.

For your solution to work, every rape victim would have to report their attack before they know they are pregnant be it to a medical or Garda official, while ignoring the fact that many rape victims never report their attack for fear of not being believed, or judged even if their attacker is found guilty such as was seen in the support Danny Foley received in Kerry.

It also would mean that for it not to be used for any other reason that a woman believes they require an abortion for, a victim would be unable to refuse to have a forensic examination to prove they have been raped as they currently can due to the further trauma this can cause.

It is an unworkable solution and I'm sorry to say shows your poor knowledge of how rape affects the victim.

The purposed legislation handles it and any other reason a woman decides to have an abortion for much better.

thee glitz · 13-05-2018 06:05PM

DubInMeath wrote: »

For your solution to work, every rape victim would have to report their attack before they know they are pregnant be it to a medical or Garda official, while ignoring the fact that many rape victims never report their attack for fear of not being believed, or judged even if their attacker is found guilty such as was seen in the support Danny Foley received in Kerry.

So report it. No need to worry about being believed unless it's happening every week. Just report it, over the phone.

fxotoole · 13-05-2018 06:11PM

thee glitz wrote: »

So report it. No need to worry about being believed unless it's happening every week. Just report it, over the phone.

Report it to whom? And would the organisation that you report it to be legally obliged to inform the Gardaí?

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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