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8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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Comments

  • #5372
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    applehunter wrote: »
    Agreed it true, but as long as a poster isn't flipped from its angle I don't see a problem with shifting a poster a foot or two.

    the insinuation here is that the lads took the poster completely off the pole.

    Because shifting it a foot or two could put it below the 2.5m height it's supposed to be at. Those poles aren't that high anyway.


  • #5373
    conorhal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,059 ✭✭✭conorhal


    bubblypop wrote: »
    I am very sympathetic for your & your partners loss Conor. It's terrible when a wanted baby dies in the womb. I understand that this is very emotive issue for you, made more emotive by that loss.
    But, I would really advise that you & your wife think hard about what you ye would do in a situation where, when you are pregnant with a much wanted child, if your wife was found to have cancer. Would you really both wait for 9 months before she could have treatment? Would you risk the life of your wife so a baby might survive?
    Surely your wife is worth more to you?
    What of the next time your wife is pregnant, you are told that the baby will not survive?
    A guy I work with & his wife were told this on their first baby. They held onto the hope that maybe it would be OK, until it was too late. Their baby was born, extremely premature, with a lot of its organs outside its body. ( I didn't ask too many details) the child died after birth or was dead on birth. A terrible time for them, he told me he has had nightmares since. He said now, they should have aborted earlier on.
    How would you really feel in their shoes? In those circumstances where your wife's life is in the balance?
    Would you want to travel all the way to England? Would you want your nearest to be treated at home, with her family & friends near for support?
    This is the reality of what the 8th amendment does.
    Lobby, March, annoy your td about legalisation about abortion after the 8th has been repealed, but for all women sake, allow them the opportunity to do what is best for them.


    You've done well for playing the emotive game of promoting hard cases and bad law (in 97% of abortions), you couch your argument in sympathetic language, but sympathy is not your intent, repeal is. Emotive neutralization is your intent. I would vote for an amendment in the case of FFA. I've already stated that. That's not what we're voting though on is it? My situation at the time has nothing to do with this referendum.
    Yes it colors my view of it, but you don't get to look at a you 5 and a half month old son and bury him and it not.


  • #5374
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    applehunter wrote: »
    Agreed it true, but as long as a poster isn't flipped from its angle I don't see a problem with shifting a poster a foot or two.

    the insinuation here is that the lads took the poster completely off the pole.

    I bet you don't...


  • #5375
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    conorhal wrote: »
    You've done well for playing the emotive game of promoting hard cases and bad law (in 97% of abortions), you couch your argument in sympathetic language, but sympathy is not your intent, repeal is. Emotive neutralization is your intent. I would vote for an amendment in the case of FFA. I've already stated that. That's not what we're voting though on is it? My situation at the time has nothing to do with this referendum.
    Yes it colors my view of it, but you don't get to look at a you 5 and a half month old son and bury him and it not.

    It's not what we are voting on, we are voting to repeal the 8th amendment.
    Abortion legislation is different & comes after. FFA etc cannot be legislated for as long as the 8th is in place.
    The unborn is still protected under law. It just doesn't put women in danger.
    I cannot change your mind, but this is about more than just abortion.


  • #5376
    conorhal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,059 ✭✭✭conorhal


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    I bet you don't...




    Like abortion, if you don't see it, it's not a problem.
    I notice that most of the retain posters in my area (that weren't high up on a lampost have been taken down.)


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  • #5377
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    conorhal wrote: »
    You've done well for playing the emotive game of promoting hard cases and bad law (in 97% of abortions), you couch your argument in sympathetic language, but sympathy is not your intent, repeal is. Emotive neutralization is your intent. I would vote for an amendment in the case of FFA. I've already stated that. That's not what we're voting though on is it? My situation at the time has nothing to do with this referendum.
    Yes it colors my view of it, but you don't get to look at a you 5 and a half month old son and bury him and it not.

    My daughter was born sleeping. I’m still voting Yes.
    I don’t want to add any more suffering and distress to women during an already stressful, vulernable time for women.
    Yes to choice, yes to compassion, yes to respect.

    I’m presently going through treatment to stop the development of cervical cancer. Should I fall pregnant, my treatment would cease.
    This is unacceptable. I should be able to continue treatment if I want to.
    Gambling my life is a choice only I can make.

    It isn’t as black and white as you are making it out to be.


  • #5378
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    applehunter wrote: »
    It was a comment on how thejournal.ie tries to put itself forward as an objective news outlet but it is just a propaganda tool for the Repeal side. thejournal.ie is given prominence in our national media regularly appearing on RTE & TV3 programmes.

    I know very little about the liberal.ie. They website allegedly rigged a competition and is run by Cora Sherlock's brother, Leo, from snippets I've seen.

    Guess which one of them has been involved in plagiarism?


  • #5379
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    conorhal wrote: »
    Like abortion, if you don't see it, it's not a problem.

    That does seem to be the No side's position on abortion, yes.


  • #5380
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    conorhal wrote: »
    Like abortion, if you don't see it, it's not a problem.
    I notice that most of the retain posters in my area (that weren't high up on a lampost have been taken down.)

    The 8th affects maternity care for every single pregnant woman in this country and is about so much more than abortion.


  • #5381
    FingerDeKat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭FingerDeKat


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    That does seem to be the No side's position on abortion, yes.
    NIMBYism.


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  • #5382
    conorhal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,059 ✭✭✭conorhal


    bubblypop wrote: »
    It's not what we are voting on, we are voting to repeal the 8th amendment.
    Abortion legislation is different & comes after. FFA etc cannot be legislated for as long as the 8th is in place.
    The unborn is still protected under law. It just doesn't put women in danger.
    I cannot change your mind, but this is about more than just abortion.


    That's not true, we know exactly what comes after. Blank cheque abortion up to the first trimester (no reference to women in danger) and vague terms and conditions up to the second trimester that reference 'health' in the same manner as English law. It's not about more then 'just abortion' it's exactly about abortion.


  • #5383
    swampgas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,615 ✭✭✭swampgas


    conorhal wrote: »
    That's not true, we know exactly what comes after. Blank cheque abortion up to the first trimester (no reference to women in danger) and vague terms and conditions up to the second trimester that reference 'health' in the same manner as English law. It's not about more then 'just abortion' it's exactly about abortion.

    You need counselling. Seriously.


  • #5384
    conorhal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,059 ✭✭✭conorhal


    FingerDeKat wrote: »
    NIMBYism.


    So? I have no say on what happens in anybody elses back yard. I do in my back yard and nobody's burying babies in it.


  • #5385
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    conorhal wrote: »
    That's not true, we know exactly what comes after. Blank cheque abortion up to the first trimester (no reference to women in danger) and vague terms and conditions up to the second trimester that reference 'health' in the same manner as English law. It's not about more then 'just abortion' it's exactly about abortion.

    It's up to the country what happens after.
    It's about legislation after.
    You can have a say in that.
    Look at the old age pension years ago, look at water charges. Legislation is still what the people want.


  • #5386
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    conorhal wrote: »
    So? I have no say on what happens in anybody elses back yard. I do in my back yard and nobody's burying babies in it.
    You do know abortion already occurs here under limited terms?

    Also depending where you live say like Tuam for example, maybe someone already did,


  • #5387
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    conorhal wrote: »
    You've done well for playing the emotive game of promoting hard cases and bad law (in 97% of abortions), you couch your argument in sympathetic language, but sympathy is not your intent, repeal is. Emotive neutralization is your intent. I would vote for an amendment in the case of FFA. I've already stated that. That's not what we're voting though on is it? My situation at the time has nothing to do with this referendum.
    Yes it colors my view of it, but you don't get to look at a you 5 and a half month old son and bury him and it not.

    Conor, look, I know where you are coming from, my wife and I lost the only pregnancy we've managed to conceive. On the day of the 12 week scan, it was noted that the fetus hadn't progressed past the 5 week mark. We were told to go home, and come back in the morning, or if bleeding started. We only were home an hour. There was nothing they could do to induce it, as there was a faint heartbeat.

    Those 12 weeks, we were planning names, and clothes, and schools, and just delighted. Gone. We've had a hard time since, my wife suffered greatly, I didn't take it well, our marriage hit a rocky spot.

    I would have liked that my wife have a dying fetus removed, but nowt could be done. But even more than that, I really can't let my desire for a child impact on other people.

    Babies are great, so is riding without wanting a child, but some times those don't mix. But the fact I want a child, doesn't give me the right to dictate to others.


  • #5388
    conorhal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,059 ✭✭✭conorhal


    swampgas wrote: »
    You need counselling. Seriously.


    I have.

    I'd say no less to somebody considering killing their unborn child.


  • #5389
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    conorhal wrote: »
    So? I have no say on what happens in anybody elses back yard. I do in my back yard and nobody's burying babies in it.

    If the referendum was about repealing the freedom to travel for abortion, would you vote yes or no?


  • #5390
    conorhal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,059 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    Conor, look, I know where you are coming from, my wife and I lost the only pregnancy we've managed to conceive. On the day of the 12 week scan, it was noted that the fetus hadn't progressed past the 5 week mark. We were told to go home, and come back in the morning, or if bleeding started. We only were home an hour. There was nothing they could do to induce it, as there was a faint heartbeat.

    Those 12 weeks, we were planning names, and clothes, and schools, and just delighted. Gone. We've had a hard time since, my wife suffered greatly, I didn't take it well, our marriage hit a rocky spot.

    I would have liked that my wife have a dying fetus removed, but nowt could be done. But even more than that, I really can't let my desire for a child impact on other people.

    Babies are great, so is riding without wanting a child, but some times those don't mix. But the fact I want a child, doesn't give me the right to dictate to others.


    You are conflating a miscarriage and an abortion. It's not dictating to others to defend the right to life of an other.


  • #5391
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    conorhal wrote: »
    I have.

    I'd say no less to somebody considering killing their unborn child.

    And therein lies exactly the problem.

    You are so set on seeing those who seek abortions as some sort of murderous raving lunatics who enjoy killing their own young for sport, that you can’t see past your prejudice to notice the horrific, difficult, tragic circumstances people find themselves in while they are in the midst of a crisis pregnancy.

    Compassion and empathy are in short supply from yourself.


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  • #5392
    BarleySweets
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 198 ✭✭BarleySweets


    conorhal wrote: »
    You are conflating a miscarriage and an abortion. It's not dictating to others to defend the right to life of an other.

    Conor, stop fishing for sympathy and then lobbing abuse at anyone who bites.

    You don’t need to be like this mate.


  • #5393
    conorhal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,059 ✭✭✭conorhal


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    If the referendum was about repealing the freedom to travel for abortion, would you vote yes or no?


    I probably wouldn't vote, it's an unworkable and unfeasible suggestion and impossible to police.

    I can only vote on what is permissible where I can effect legislation. I do wonder however how many times that the time it took to organize an abortion in an English clinic was the time it took to realize it was not the choice a woman wanted to make.


  • #5394
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    conorhal wrote: »
    You are conflating a miscarriage and an abortion. It's not dictating to others to defend the right to life of an other.

    I'm not though. My wife couldn't have an abortion, because there was a faint heart beat. She was told to go home, with a fetus that was dying inside her, and come back when it was dead, and she was bleeding. A fetus that hadn't progressed past 5 weeks took priority over my wife.

    That's the reality of denying abortions to women. A wanted child, but a much more wanted wife.


  • #5395
    conorhal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,059 ✭✭✭conorhal


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    And therein lies exactly the problem.

    You are so set on seeing those who seek abortions as some sort of murderous raving lunatics who enjoy killing their own young for sport, that you can’t see past your prejudice to notice the horrific, difficult, tragic circumstances people find themselves in while they are in the midst of a crisis pregnancy.

    Compassion and empathy are in short supply from yourself.


    You it seems can't see past your own hysterical hyperbole, or your own prejudice that seems invisible to you.


  • #5396
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    conorhal wrote: »
    I probably wouldn't vote, it's an unworkable and unfeasible suggestion and impossible to police.

    I can only vote on what is permissible where I can effect legislation. I do wonder however how many times that the time it took to organize an abortion in an English clinic was the time it took to realize it was not the choice a woman wanted to make.

    I wonder how many people spent a fortune on flights and accommodation only to change their mind about wanting an abortion, but felt pressure to follow through because of the massive waste of money of the travelling expenses being lost?


  • #5397
    conorhal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,059 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    I'm not though. My wife couldn't have an abortion, because there was a faint heart beat. She was told to go home, with a fetus that was dying inside her, and come back when it was dead, and she was bleeding. A fetus that hadn't progressed past 5 weeks took priority over my wife.

    That's the reality of denying abortions to women. A wanted child, but a much more wanted wife.


    I've already stated that I would be sympathetic to your case and that of FFA.

    As I've already stated, that's not what we're voting for.

    Are you happy to vote for abortion on demand in the first trimester (and the second subject to vague conditions)?


  • #5398
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    conorhal wrote:
    You it seems can't see past your own hysterical hyperbole, or your own prejudice that seems invisible to you.


    Then how do you view women who have had abortions, or are considering one for any of the hundreds of reasons? Baring in mind that it could be anyone you know.


  • #5399
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    conorhal wrote: »
    You it seems can't see past your own hysterical hyperbole, or your own prejudice that seems invisible to you.

    That’s actually hilarious. We have the same circumstances but mine is ‘hysterical hyperbole’ but yours isn’t? Right.

    I don’t prejudice. I’m pro choice. I’m pro people making their own decisions.
    You are the one taking away choices, YOU are the one that’s prejudiced.


  • #5400
    FingerDeKat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭FingerDeKat


    conorhal wrote: »
    Are you happy to vote for abortion on demand in the first trimester (and the second subject to vague conditions)?

    Yes.If you don't like abortions don't force your wife to have one.

    Otherwise f off and mind your own business


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  • #5401
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    conorhal wrote: »
    I probably wouldn't vote, it's an unworkable and unfeasible suggestion and impossible to police.

    We had a 100% success rate with it before we voted in the 13th Amendment, so it would definitely be workable and possible to police. But even if it wasn't, surely you'd vote Yes on principle anyway. That way, if things changed, it could start being put into effect straight away.

    But in reality, you don't want actually want to stop abortions, you just want to pretend they don't happen in Ireland. It's not the unborn you're worried about, it's NIMBYISM.


This discussion has been closed.
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