8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

12-05-2018 05:55PM

splinter65 wrote: »

Yes. The cases are so infrequent that they are news items. You are stating that there can’t be mother and baby facilities because all care homes are rife with abuse.
That’s absolute nonsense and an insult to social care staff all over the country and offensive to the patients and their families.

Just because something is not reported doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen, despite having dedicated and caring staff working there.

No one reported the abuse in mother and baby homes for years, does that mean it didn’t happen?

BarleySweets · 12-05-2018 05:56PM

smartz wrote: »

Of the last 50 posts on this thread 46 have been pro-repeal 4 have been anti-repeal. Just important to let people know this is a bit of an echo chamber, in case their getting their opinion of how the two campaigns are going by the conversation here.

Counting is a very important skill set, thank you for your contribution to the discussion here.

Why don’t you join the discussion instead, chat to us and lessen the echoiness if you don’t like what’s written here?

BabysCoffee · 12-05-2018 05:56PM

conorhal wrote: »

Well, not a dead baby is a good start! I can 'trust' you not to kill my kids is sorta kinda a basic level of trust, we can work from there..

If your wife had a condition where she couldn't take her epilepsy medication while pregnant and she could possibly have seizures during her pregnancy which meant that she was falling and injuring herself regularly and a serious seizure could cause her a brain injury. Would you support her if she wanted to have an abortion?

Or how about if the above lady was your daughter and she has 3 children already and her husband loves and values her and they have decided to have a termination in order for her to not suffer durung pregnancy and to be healthy in order to raise the other children. Would you support her in the choice she makes?

Sofiztikated · 12-05-2018 05:59PM

splinter65 wrote: »

Yes. The cases are so infrequent that they are news items. You are stating that there can’t be mother and baby facilities because all care homes are rife with abuse.
That’s absolute nonsense and an insult to social care staff all over the country and offensive to the patients and their families.

I personally don't see much benefit for a mother and baby home, that couldn't be provided for in other ways.

More social housing and better supports for single mothers would offer the same benefits.

spookwoman · 12-05-2018 06:01PM

splinter65 wrote: »

Yes. The cases are so infrequent that they are news items. You are stating that there can’t be mother and baby facilities because all care homes are rife with abuse.
That’s absolute nonsense and an insult to social care staff all over the country and offensive to the patients and their families.

That is a bold faced lie. Did I say that all care homes are like that. No I didn't.
I'll tell you what is offensive someone telling me what they think is best for my health.

conorhal · 12-05-2018 06:02PM

BarleySweets wrote: »

Ok, that smart arse reply didn’t answer any of the questions I asked. But you inspired an extra question on top of the ones I asked you: Would you ever forgive or trust a woman after she has an abortion? Or are they untrustworthy and unforgivable for the rest of their existence?

(And lol at the cut of your line there. If you knock up a woman who doesn’t want to have your baby you’ve got no say whatsoever in her decision if she chooses to hop on a plane to England. Legally or morally. Who are you kidding with your idea of what you are and are not entitled to?)

I've friends that have had an abortion, I still love them, I still disagree with them. It's not up to me to forgive them, I wasn't involved.
As for your hypothetical. Legally, no. I'd have no choice in that. You're stretching to suggest that I have no moral quandry however. I'd absolutely have an emotional and moral objection to that. There's only one person in that scenario though with a sense of entitlement, you.

Sofiztikated · 12-05-2018 06:03PM

conorhal wrote: »

Trust is earned not granted and everybody judges everybody, I'm pretty sure you're going to judge me. (By your own standards) How very dare you!

I might judge you, but I won't insist that you carry a child you don't want.

BabysCoffee · 12-05-2018 06:03PM

conorhal wrote: »

Trust is earned not granted and everybody judges everybody, I'm pretty sure you're going to judge me. (By your own standards) How very dare you!

When the 8th is repealed I won't judge you for not having an abortion. As someone who is pro-choice I will be glad to hear you chose to not avail of something even though it is available to you......thats if you were a woman.

Anyhoo let the debate continue

amcalester · 12-05-2018 06:08PM

conorhal wrote: »

I've friends that have had an abortion, I still love them, I still disagree with them. It's not up to me to forgive them, I wasn't involved.
.

But you are involved, the 8th makes you involved.

By voting No you’re even more involved as an active participant rather than a passive participant (assuming you didn’t vote in 83).

conorhal · 12-05-2018 06:09PM

BabysCoffee wrote: »

When the 8th is repealed I won't judge you for not having an abortion. As someone who is pro-choice I will be glad to hear you chose to not avail of something even though it is available to you......thats if you were a woman.

Anyhoo let the debate continue

That's like saying, Well if you don't murder somebody I won't judge you for not murdering somebody, If you don't steal from somebody I won't judge you for not stealing from them or if you don't cheat somebody I won't judge you for not cheating them.

People are rarely judged on what they DON'T do.

erica74 · 12-05-2018 06:09PM

conorhal wrote: »

Trust is earned not granted and everybody judges everybody, I'm pretty sure you're going to judge me. (By your own standards) How very dare you!

Well, who do we earn that trust from?

conorhal wrote: »

Well, not a dead baby is a good start! I can 'trust' you not to kill my kids is sorta kinda a basic level of trust, we can work from there..

Well if you're going to be such a smartarse about it, the "sorta kinda basic level" of the referendum is that it's NOT ABOUT MURDERING YOUR KIDS.

conorhal wrote: »

I've friends that have had an abortion, I still love them, I still disagree with them. It's not up to me to forgive them, I wasn't involved.
As for your hypothetical. Legally, no. I'd have no choice in that. You're stretching to suggest that I have no moral quandry however. I'd absolutely have an emotional and moral objection to that. There's only one person in that scenario though with a sense of entitlement, you.

Nor should you be involved unless it directly affects you. If I have an abortion, how does that affect you?

splinter65 · 12-05-2018 06:09PM

DubInMeath wrote: »

I’m saying it happens and it’s been reported look at the Keith Burke case as an example, but good deflection attempt, particularly as you ask originally what I would see as potential abuses and not if I had witnessed them.

So you don’t want your taxes to be spent on social welfare in the form of children’s allowance etc, but would b happy to see them spent in mother and baby homes?
so what’s your solution to people whose contraception fails and should in your opinion not receive state benefits for their third child and need this money?

No. You knocked the idea of a mother and baby home on the head completely with an allegation that any public care facility is obviously rife with sexual physical and mental abuse.
The few badly run (amongst 100s of excellent places) have been exposed and you produced newspaper articles about these places to “prove” that all the care facilities are rotten.
How dare you.
Dedicated staff work with concerned families all over the country every day to look after the vulnerable.
I trust you will always be in a position to look after your loved ones at home yourself in an appropriate manner because you really don’t want them abused in any public facility?
As regards the benefits cap then if your contraception fails and you are completely reliant on benefits with no hope of becoming less dependent on benefits, then the first thing you need to do is consult with your GP as to how to permanently discount the risk of there being more unplanned children who your not in a position to look after.
The second thing that needs to happen is that SW need to work with both parents to ensure that any possible employment opportunity for either parent is maximized.
Any more excuses?

conorhal · 12-05-2018 06:13PM

erica74 wrote: »

Well, who do we earn that trust from?

Uhhhh from people that prove themselves trustworthy by their actions? How do you you come to find people trustworthy?

erica74 wrote: »

Well if you're going to be such a smartarse about it, the "sorta kinda basic level" of the referendum is that it's NOT ABOUT MURDERING YOUR KIDS.

Just kids then. Not my problem. Turn a blind eye.

Sofiztikated · 12-05-2018 06:13PM

splinter65 wrote: »

As regards the benefits cap then if your contraception fails and you are completely reliant on benefits with no hope of becoming less dependent on benefits, then the first thing you need to do is consult with your GP as to how to permanently discount the risk of there being more unplanned children who your not in a position to look after.
The second thing that needs to happen is that SW need to work with both parents to ensure that any possible employment opportunity for either parent is maximized.
Any more excuses?

That sounds very like the forced sterilization of poor people.

If that's your opinion, you are way off the beaten track.

erica74 · 12-05-2018 06:14PM

conorhal wrote: »

Uhhhh from people that prove themselves trustworthy by their actions? How do you you come to find people trustworthy?

Just kids then. Not my problem. Turn a blind eye.

:pac:
Gotta love those loveboth views!

Ally Dick · 12-05-2018 06:14PM

smartz wrote: »

Of the last 50 posts on this thread 46 have been pro-repeal 4 have been anti-repeal. Just important to let people know this is a bit of an echo chamber, in case their getting their opinion of how the two campaigns are going by the conversation here.

I'm in no doubt that the Yes's are going to romp.home. It'll be a sad day when it does. Pandora's Box will have been opened. Abortions in Ireland will ramp up. And then euthanasia will be on the table. The pluralists dream is complete

pitifulgod · 12-05-2018 06:15PM

Anyway, amid all the conspiracies over council workers doing their job and removing posters. Here's the love both crowd in the process of removing posters and putting up their own.
https://twitter.com/ericaxcarter/status/995261537840484353

12-05-2018 06:16PM

splinter65 wrote: »

No. You knocked the idea of a mother and baby home on the head completely with an allegation that any public care facility is obviously rife with sexual physical and mental abuse.
The few badly run (amongst 100s of excellent places) have been exposed and you produced newspaper articles about these places to “prove” that all the care facilities are rotten.
How dare you.
Dedicated staff work with concerned families all over the country every day to look after the vulnerable.
I trust you will always be in a position to look after your loved ones at home yourself in an appropriate manner because you really don’t want them abused in any public facility?
As regards the benefits cap then if your contraception fails and you are completely reliant on benefits with no hope of becoming less dependent on benefits, then the first thing you need to do is consult with your GP as to how to permanently discount the risk of there being more unplanned children who your not in a position to look after.
The second thing that needs to happen is that SW need to work with both parents to ensure that any possible employment opportunity for either parent is maximized.
Any more excuses?

Nice fake rage there it’s a feature of your posts when someone shows up your poor arguement, along with trying to state the poster said something they didn’t, or you said something when you didn’t.

So no one is abused or was abused in your opinion and won’t be if they are brought back.

Your solution for those in need of social welfare is sterilisation to prevent more children so your taxes are given to them.

Yep you really love both.

Sofiztikated · 12-05-2018 06:16PM

conorhal wrote: »

Uhhhh from people that prove themselves trustworthy by their actions? How do you you come to find people trustworthy.

Why do you have to prove yourself trustworthy to, to receive medical care?

reubenreuben · 12-05-2018 06:17PM

pitifulgod wrote: »

Anyway, amid all the conspiracies over council workers doing their job and removing posters. Here's the love both crowd in the process of removing posters and putting up their own.
https://twitter.com/ericaxcarter/status/995261537840484353

4 dinosaurs in the picture. sad old men

BabysCoffee · 12-05-2018 06:18PM

conorhal wrote: »

That's like saying, Well if you don't murder somebody I won't judge you for not murdering somebody, If you don't steal from somebody I won't judge you for not stealing from them or if you don't cheat somebody I won't judge you for not cheating them.

People are rarely judged on what they DON'T do.

Interesting that most of those activities you mention are illegal.

Women legally have the right to travel for a termination of pregnancy. It is not illegal for Irish women to access abortion. Even while the 8th is in place Irish women have abortions and I do not judge them. Period.

bootpaws · 12-05-2018 06:18PM

pitifulgod wrote: »

Anyway, amid all the conspiracies over council workers doing their job and removing posters. Here's the love both crowd in the process of removing posters and putting up their own.
https://twitter.com/ericaxcarter/status/995261537840484353

I see their complete disrespect of the wishes of Down Syndrome Ireland has reared its ugly head in those signs, too. Absolutely disgraceful.

12-05-2018 06:21PM

Ally Dick wrote: »

I'm in no doubt that the Yes's are going to romp.home. It'll be a sad day when it does. Pandora's Box will have been opened. Abortions in Ireland will ramp up. And then euthanasia will be on the table. The pluralists dream is complete

What about your fellow pro lifers who say they support euthanasia?

Grayson · 12-05-2018 06:22PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

True, but there's very few willing to debate the issue.

I've stated clearly a few times why I'm pro choice and asked if someone would tell me where I'm wrong. Because I don't want to be wrong. No-one has actually done that.

It's a pity because the central issue of this referendum is whether or not an early stage embryo or a foetus at 12 weeks can be considered a person and should have the same rights as one.

Sofiztikated · 12-05-2018 06:23PM

DubInMeath wrote: »

.

Your solution for those in need of social welfare is sterilisation to prevent more children so your taxes are given to them.

Yep you really love both.

Somehow while not seeing that the link between those that are likely to be in the home, and those he wants to sterilise.

Ally Dick · 12-05-2018 06:24PM

erica74 wrote: »

Vile.

Vile.

Abortion is VILE

_Dara_ · 12-05-2018 06:24PM

My mother is voting yes. I’m so surprised and delighted! \o/

12-05-2018 06:24PM

bootpaws wrote: »

I see their complete disrespect of the wishes of Down Syndrome Ireland has reared its ugly head in those signs, too. Absolutely disgraceful.

Are you really surprised that they ignored this request?

Grayson · 12-05-2018 06:25PM

conorhal wrote: »

Trust is earned not granted and everybody judges everybody, I'm pretty sure you're going to judge me. (By your own standards) How very dare you!

In the eyes of the law trust is not earned. You don't have different rights to someone else based on whether or not the country trusts you. Your access to medical services certainly isn't based on that.

Ally Dick · 12-05-2018 06:25PM

DubInMeath wrote: »

What about your fellow pro lifers who say they support euthanasia?

There's no "fellow" anything. I don't agree with them

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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