8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

conorhal · 12-05-2018 05:21PM

BabysCoffee wrote: »

What type of women do you know that would want 3 or 4 abortions?

Think of your mother, your daughter, your sisters, your cousins, your friends. Would you trust them to not choose 3 or 4 abortions in their lifetime?

Trust women

Are women some monolithic bunch of saints? Why would I trust women more then I'd trust anybody else? Perhaps the pedestal you put them on is unearned and just like every other individual, they earn their trust.

bootpaws · 12-05-2018 05:24PM

conorhal wrote: »

Are women some monolithic bunch of saints? Why would I trust women more then I'd trust anybody else?

Are we some monolithic bunch of untrustworthy heathens?

You shouldn't necessarily trust us more than you trust anybody else.

But our laws do trust every other person in the country who isn't a pregnant woman to make their own decisions regarding their health, futures, and general wellbeing.

In that regard, our laws are not trusting us, and voting to retain the amendment means that will continue.

So we're not asking to be trusted more than anybody else. We're asking to be trusted equally to everybody else.

January · 12-05-2018 05:25PM

conorhal wrote: »

Are women some monolithic bunch of saints? Why would I trust women more then I'd trust anybody else?

You're being asked to trust women on this issue. Not overall.

In countries which basically have unrestricted abortion up until birth, such as Canada, the overwhelming majority of abortions occur in the first twelve weeks. Over 90%. The others are for reasons such as threat to the life or health of the mother or for FFA.

Yer Da sells Avon · 12-05-2018 05:26PM

conorhal wrote: »

Are women some monolithic bunch of saints? Why would I trust women more then I'd trust anybody else? Perhaps the pedestal you put them on is unearned and just like every other individual, they earn their trust.

When making a decision about their own body, how does a person (man or woman) earn your trust?

January · 12-05-2018 05:27PM

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44076159

Wonder why she's even bringing up the fact that over a 1,000 women who weren't 'white Irish' travelled to the UK... why are they not counting them?

12-05-2018 05:27PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

I assume they're going for the kill one to save the many kind of idea.

So that arguement only works in one direction for them too?

volchitsa · 12-05-2018 05:28PM

conorhal wrote: »

Are women some monolithic bunch of saints? Why would I trust women more then I'd trust anybody else? Perhaps the pedestal you put them on is unearned and just like every other individual, they earn their trust.

You're not being asked to trust them with your life's savings, you're being asked to trust them to decide what to do about their own pregnancy.

Given that you presumably intend to trust them with the living breathing consequence of that pregnancy a few months down the line, it's a fair point, surely?

conorhal · 12-05-2018 05:29PM

January wrote: »

You're being asked to trust women on this issue. Not overall.

In countries which basically have unrestricted abortion up until birth, such as Canada, the overwhelming majority of abortions occur in the first twelve weeks. Over 90%. The others are for reasons such as threat to the life or health of the mother or for FFA.

But I am being asked to trust women over all on the issue. This is no if's and's or but's abortion and I'm not in favour of abortion outside of cases of FFA and a medial threat to the life of the mother. It's blank cheque abortion.

volchitsa · 12-05-2018 05:30PM

conorhal wrote: »

But I am being asked to trust women over all on the issue. This is no if's and's or but's abortion and I'm not in favour of abortion outside of cases of FFA and a medial threat to the life of the mother. It's blank cheque abortion.

As opposed to blank cheque (forced) motherhood?

BabysCoffee · 12-05-2018 05:31PM

conorhal wrote: »

Are women some monolithic bunch of saints? Why would I trust women more then I'd trust anybody else? Perhaps the pedestal you put them on is unearned and just like every other individual, they earn their trust.

How about you think of the women in your life. Do you trust them and want to give them full bodily autonomy?

Are your sisters, daughters, friends, cousins - your mother trustworthy on this issue?

BarleySweets · 12-05-2018 05:32PM

conorhal wrote: »

Are women some monolithic bunch of saints? Why would I trust women more then I'd trust anybody else? Perhaps the pedestal you put them on is unearned and just like every other individual, they earn their trust.

My god that’s hilarious!

Go on then, tell us what women should do to earn your trust? And, if you can quantify, how much trust does a woman need I order to be able to decide if she needs an abortion or not? What other decisions about their own body must women earn *your* trust for as well? Do you trust a woman when she says “No” to you?

erica74 · 12-05-2018 05:34PM

January wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44076159

Wonder why she's even bringing up the fact that over a 1,000 women who weren't 'white Irish' travelled to the UK... why are they not counting them?

Ms Wall says in 2016 3,500 Irish women travelled for abortions.

"But only 2,500 of them were white Irish," she says.

"So, they weren't all native Irish women. That's a reduction in the number.

"They've done nothing to help and support women. They just want to bring in this absolutely insane regime of just abortion for all."

Asked, as someone who describes herself as pro-life, to clarify her point about white, native Irish women she replied: "Half of these women were of mixed nationalities.

"So, maybe they come from a culture where that's expected of them to do and that's what they feel is the right thing to do.

"There weren't that many Irish women that's my point. Now you're right, it doesn't matter. It's mothers and babies travelling for what they feel the need to do."

And that should be the choice of every woman in Ireland, to do what is best for them.

erica74 · 12-05-2018 05:36PM

conorhal wrote: »

But I am being asked to trust women over all on the issue. This is no if's and's or but's abortion and I'm not in favour of abortion outside of cases of FFA and a medial threat to the life of the mother. It's blank cheque abortion.

And why won't you trust women over all on the issue? It's my uterus, why do you think you know better what to do with it?

wexie · 12-05-2018 05:37PM

January wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44076159

Wonder why she's even bringing up the fact that over a 1,000 women who weren't 'white Irish' travelled to the UK... why are they not counting them?

pretty telling of her mindset no?

couldn't be possibly Irish if they're not white....

And therefor we don't really need to count or worry about them

Sofiztikated · 12-05-2018 05:38PM

January wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44076159

Wonder why she's even bringing up the fact that over a 1,000 women who weren't 'white Irish' travelled to the UK... why are they not counting them?

Asked, as someone who describes herself as pro-life, to clarify her point about white, native Irish women she replied: "Half of these women were of mixed nationalities

Ah. So its only love both, if they're white.

**** sake.

Yer Da sells Avon · 12-05-2018 05:39PM

conorhal wrote: »

But I am being asked to trust women over all on the issue. This is no if's and's or but's abortion and I'm not in favour of abortion outside of cases of FFA and a medial threat to the life of the mother. It's blank cheque abortion.

I can't honestly say I'm 'in favour' of it either, but it's not about me. Abortion is happening in this country, whether you or I like it or not. The pragmatic answer is to ensure that it can happen safely and legally, rather than sticking your head in the sand.

12-05-2018 05:40PM

January wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44076159

Wonder why she's even bringing up the fact that over a 1,000 women who weren't 'white Irish' travelled to the UK... why are they not counting them?

Ah you got to love a racist comment and backtrack. Not surprisingly a lot of the no posters in this thread have posted racist comments in other threads.

pitifulgod · 12-05-2018 05:40PM

RobertKK wrote: »

I don’t believe any of us should be taking disagreements from this thread and manifesting them elsewhere on the site. We are all human and we have different opinions and that is life.

In fairness, with both this and the marriage referendum. You've said the sky is falling. So it does call into question your credibility, particularly when you point blank refuse to address plenty of points or just outright misrepresent realities. Eg medical treatments that pregnant women are not allowed to receive.

Ally Dick wrote: »

Why is adoption virtually non existent? It's a much better option to a horrendous abortion

It fascinates me how the most vehemently pro life people suddenly get concerned about issues such as adoption when there's a sign of the status quo changing. I've heard all manner of proposed solution with everything pregnancy related from pro lifers. But the reality is they've made absolutely no effort to resolve anything since 1983. They're only concerned now and in many cases, they're incredibly judgmental of women.

ricero wrote: »

I saw a statistic that the NHS pay for up to 95% of abortions in UK clinics.

On demand is a woman having up to 3 or 4 abortions in her lifetime. I think this legislation has been rushed in without proper planning

The state covers much of my medication costs. The state covers plenty of people's medication costs to some degree. Want to drop that too?

conorhal · 12-05-2018 05:43PM

BarleySweets wrote: »

My god that’s hilarious!

Go on then, tell us what women should do to earn your trust? And, if you can quantify, how much trust does a woman need I order to be able to decide if she needs an abortion or not? What other decisions about their own body must women earn *your* trust for as well? Do you trust a woman when she says “No” to you?

Well, not a dead baby is a good start! I can 'trust' you not to kill my kids is sorta kinda a basic level of trust, we can work from there..

BabysCoffee · 12-05-2018 05:47PM

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

I can't honestly say I'm 'in favour' of it either, but it's not about me. Abortion is happening in this country, whether you or I like it or not. The pragmatic answer is to ensure that it can happen safely and legally, rather than sticking your head in the sand.

Exactly. Women should be considering their choices in their doctors surgery with the support of their family and friends.

Trust and value women.
Don't judge women.

Sofiztikated · 12-05-2018 05:48PM

pitifulgod wrote: »

It fascinates me how the most vehemently pro life people suddenly get concerned about issues such as adoption when there's a sign of the status quo changing. I've heard all manner of proposed solution with everything pregnancy related from pro lifers. But the reality is they've made absolutely no effort to resolve anything since 1983. They're only concerned now and in many cases, they're incredibly judgmental of women.

I seem to remember children being adopted by married, gay, adults being a serious source of consternation as well.

conorhal · 12-05-2018 05:50PM

BabysCoffee wrote: »

Exactly. Women should be considering their choices in their doctors surgery with the support of their family and friends.

Trust and value women.
Don't judge women.

Trust is earned not granted and everybody judges everybody, I'm pretty sure you're going to judge me. (By your own standards) How very dare you!

BarleySweets · 12-05-2018 05:50PM

conorhal wrote: »

Well, not a dead baby is a good start! I can 'trust' you not to kill my kids is sorta kinda a basic level of trust, we can work from there..

Ok, that smart arse reply didn’t answer any of the questions I asked. But you inspired an extra question on top of the ones I asked you: Would you ever forgive or trust a woman after she has an abortion? Or are they untrustworthy and unforgivable for the rest of their existence?

(And lol at the cut of your line there. If you knock up a woman who doesn’t want to have your baby you’ve got no say whatsoever in her decision if she chooses to hop on a plane to England. Legally or morally. Who are you kidding with your idea of what you are and are not entitled to?)

Sofiztikated · 12-05-2018 05:50PM

conorhal wrote: »

Well, not a dead baby is a good start! I can 'trust' you not to kill my kids is sorta kinda a basic level of trust, we can work from there..

Jesus Christ, noone advocating killing anyone's kids.

splinter65 · 12-05-2018 05:50PM

spookwoman wrote: »

Look at the papers and the news and you will have seen reports of abuse etc in care homes.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/survey-reports-levels-of-abuse-in-nursing-and-care-homes-1.3075342
http://www.thejournal.ie/nursing-home-abuse-2705501-Apr2016/

Yes. The cases are so infrequent that they are news items. You are stating that there can’t be mother and baby facilities because all care homes are rife with abuse.
That’s absolute nonsense and an insult to social care staff all over the country and offensive to the patients and their families.

smartz · 12-05-2018 05:51PM

Of the last 50 posts on this thread 46 have been pro-repeal 4 have been anti-repeal. Just important to let people know this is a bit of an echo chamber, in case their getting their opinion of how the two campaigns are going by the conversation here.

12-05-2018 05:51PM

conorhal wrote: »

Well, not a dead baby is a good start! I can 'trust' you not to kill my kids is sorta kinda a basic level of trust, we can work from there..

Well for the poster to kill your kids they would need to know where they live and then commit murder, which is illegal and still will be if the 8th is repealed. So how has the 8th prevented the poster you quoted from murdering your kids so far?

Not that I believe the poster in question wants to murder your kids.

BarleySweets · 12-05-2018 05:53PM

conorhal wrote: »

Trust is earned not granted and everybody judges everybody, I'm pretty sure you're going to judge me. (By your own standards) How very dare you!

So who’s trust did you earn in order to make decisions about your own body? I’d love to meet that person because I’d tell them that their trust in your decision-making abilities appears to be misplaced.

bootpaws · 12-05-2018 05:54PM

conorhal wrote: »

But I am being asked to trust women over all on the issue. This is no if's and's or but's abortion and I'm not in favour of abortion outside of cases of FFA and a medial threat to the life of the mother. It's blank cheque abortion.

conorhal wrote: »

Well, not a dead baby is a good start! I can 'trust' you not to kill my kids is sorta kinda a basic level of trust, we can work from there..

But, see, the thing is, and you'll have to bear with me here because I understand that on some level, you really do think Voting No is probably the right thing.

You cannot force a child on somebody. You cannot force 9 months of sickness, discomfort, pain, missed work, missed college, and a painful labour and birthing process, and eventually, a child who she will need to be responsible for forever. You just can't do that, Conorhal. You just can't force that on somebody.

If the condom broke, if the birth control failed, if the woman was raped, if the baby is wanted but slowly dying inside the womb, and on and on and on...abortion will be necessary. And it will happen.

We are not being asked "do you think abortion is a wonderful procedure?" Because none of us do.

We are being asked "Will we as a country step up to the plate and provide these services for the women who need them? The women who access them anyway, be it via traveling to England or via dangerous methods at home, or via abortion pills bought online?"

If you think the idea of a woman taking two pills and having what, for all intents and purposes, just looks like a heavy period, is an unfortunate mental image, imagine for a moment the results of a woman forcing a coat hanger inside herself.

Imagine a woman taking a bath so hot it's turning her skin red, imagine a woman drinking alone to the point of blacking out. A woman throwing herself down the stairs, drinking bleach, pouring chemicals inside herself in every act of desperation in the book.

The reality is it's happening. It's always happened.

A man walking up to another man and stabbing him in the heart is murder. Provoked or not, he could have walked away and ignored that other man. He could have called the police if he felt threatened, he could have gotten a restraining order, he could've distanced himself physically.

Pregnant women have no such freedom when they don't want to be pregnant. It's there, it's inside them, the size of a grain of rice, and by virtue of the 8th amendment, they've just lost every right they ever had to choose what becomes of them. Under the 8th amendment it's just not their body anymore.

A termination at 12 weeks isn't murder. It's a decision that affects only the woman who has decided to do it. If she doesn't want to be pregnant she doesn't have another option. She can't just walk away. She can't call the guards. She can't physically distance herself.

She knows what's right for her, and be it with two pills prescribed by her doctor or by forcing objects or chemicals inside of herself at risk to her own life, she will end that pregnancy.

Of those two options, what would you rather she do?

Sofiztikated · 12-05-2018 05:54PM

smartz wrote: »

Of the last 50 posts on this thread 46 have been pro-repeal 4 have been anti-repeal. Just important to let people know this is a bit of an echo chamber, in case their getting their opinion of how the two campaigns are going by the conversation here.

True, but there's very few willing to debate the issue.

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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