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8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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Comments

  • #5162
    spookwoman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,059 ✭✭✭✭spookwoman


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Your alleging that you have witnessed or have other evidence that people are being physically sexually and mentally abused in state run care homes? Have you reported this to the Gardai?
    In response to your other point I am in favor of a benefits cap for the better welfare of born children.
    It’s improving living conditions for children in other countries,
    What is the point you are trying to make?

    Look at the papers and the news and you will have seen reports of abuse etc in care homes.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/survey-reports-levels-of-abuse-in-nursing-and-care-homes-1.3075342
    http://www.thejournal.ie/nursing-home-abuse-2705501-Apr2016/


  • #5163
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    BarleySweets wrote: »
    What a heartless thing to say to someone who you know nothing about.

    You really are living up to your name here, Ally!

    How dare you come on here preaching “compassion” and then mock someone in this manner!

    Meh, if it shows them up for the unpleasant person they are, let them go on ahead.


  • #5164
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    ricero wrote: »
    Still not decided on what to vote for.

    My biggest fear for repealing the 8th would be an abortion on demand scenario and then abortions being paid for by the medical card within a decade.

    When you first posted, back in January, you said the wording would be key.

    We've had the wording for a while now, so what are your thoughts?


  • #5165
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Physical, sexual and mental abuse. Happens our foster care system and retirement homes due to lack of resources.

    If your ok with your taxes being spent on mother and baby homes why are you against them being used for children’s allowance for the third and subsequent child people have?

    I work in a residential unit. Adult and child residents. No one on staff is abusive that I know of but lack of resources, red tape and ridiculous regulations mean we can't always do our jobs the way we'd like and as a result we can't always meet the needs of our residents. It's abuse by the state as opposed to individuals as would have happened in the homes of old but its still abuse.


  • #5166
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    ricero wrote: »
    I saw a statistic that the NHS pay for up to 95% of abortions in UK clinics.

    On demand is a woman having up to 3 or 4 abortions in her lifetime. I think this legislation has been rushed in without proper planning

    No legislation has been rushed in, because there is no legislation yet.

    There's an outline of the proposed legislation, but that won't, and can't, be debated by the Dáil and Seanad until after the referendum.

    The referendum is about deciding one thing: should abortion be in the constitution or in legislation. If we say it's the latter, the current law stays in place until the Dáil debates and passes any proposed changes.


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  • #5167
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    ricero wrote: »
    I saw a statistic that the NHS pay for up to 95% of abortions in UK clinics.

    On demand is a woman having up to 3 or 4 abortions in her lifetime. I think this legislation has been rushed in without proper planning

    The NHS pay for a lot of things. Or if it's the cost issue thats bothering you, which do you think is more, 2 trips to a doctor, with a couple of pills, or the cost of doctors visits, giving birth, child benefit, FIS, and whatever, up til they're 18.

    It's been 35 years. That's hardly a rush. ****, I'm 35, I'm a grown ass adult.


  • #5168
    spookwoman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,059 ✭✭✭✭spookwoman


    This just posted on Twitter disgusting behavior by the No side

    https://twitter.com/tonyismyname/status/995320012637462528


  • #5169
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Do you think women would go to the Gardai and say I was raped, they do whatever they do for evidence and ask if they knew the rapist or if they could give a description. Your post says we can't trust women, I don't think that is what you wanted to say with that post, given the Yes campaign use the trust women slogo, but that is what it says.
    Members of the government said the main reason some of them backed 12 weeks unrestricted was not due to rape but due to abortion pills.
    My post says that a woman who does not want to be pregnant will do what is necessary to not be pregnant. In the past women sought out back-street abortions using drugs or rupturing membranes, and many died because of this.

    If a woman will do something she knows could kill her in order to not remain pregnant do you think she would shirk at fibbing to the Gardaí?

    Yes, trust women. Not to be some mythical perfect being who will accept a fate they don’t want because _you_ think they should have to, but trust them to know what _they_ need, and what is best for them and their families.


  • #5170
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    ricero wrote: »
    Still not decided on what to vote for.

    My biggest fear for repealing the 8th would be an abortion on demand scenario and then abortions being paid for by the medical card within a decade.

    Why would the medical card cover that?

    Also, it would save the state to cover it in the long run if the family couldn't afford to bring up another child


  • #5171
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,213 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Ally Dick wrote: »
    We'll all be back here in a couple of years time about euthanasia, and the same people will be calling for it on "compassionate" grounds

    That won't require a referendum.

    So not only do you want to force pregnant women to suffer, risking their health and even lives against their will, you want to force terminally ill people to live on in great suffering against their will too.

    Is there any end to your desire to interfere in the private decisions of other adults?

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



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  • #5172
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,213 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Have you any clue about how offensive that would be to millions of adoptive parents and adoptees all over the world?

    My wife was adopted, she is canvassing for Yes.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • #5173
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Your alleging that you have witnessed or have other evidence that people are being physically sexually and mentally abused in state run care homes? Have you reported this to the Gardai?
    In response to your other point I am in favor of a benefits cap for the better welfare of born children.
    It’s improving living conditions for children in other countries,
    What is the point you are trying to make?

    I’m saying it happens and it’s been reported look at the Keith Burke case as an example, but good deflection attempt, particularly as you ask originally what I would see as potential abuses and not if I had witnessed them.

    So you don’t want your taxes to be spent on social welfare in the form of children’s allowance etc, but would b happy to see them spent in mother and baby homes?
    so what’s your solution to people whose contraception fails and should in your opinion not receive state benefits for their third child and need this money?


  • #5174
    spookwoman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,059 ✭✭✭✭spookwoman


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    I’m saying it happens and it’s been reported look at the Keith Burke case as an example, but good deflection attempt.

    So you don’t want your taxes to be spent on social welfare in the form of children’s allowance etc, but would b happy to see them spent in mother and baby homes?
    so what’s your solution to people whose contraception fails and should in your opinion not receive state benefits for their third child and need this money?
    He seems to be in favour of prostitution as well I wonder what would he do if he got one knocked up, would he offer to adopt it and if she arrived at his doorstep looking for maintenance what would he do. I don't know if married but I recon the wife would no be too happy.


  • #5175
    BarleySweets
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 198 ✭✭BarleySweets


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Tell me what kind of abuse your afraid of going on in a mother and baby home in 2018.
    Just give me 3 examples of potential abuse that would concern you.
    Also, yes of course I have no problem with my “taxes” paying for the running of such a home. My “taxes” are necessary for providing healthcare across the entire country.
    We don’t get to specify who benefits from our “taxes” and who doesn’t and rightly so, do I don’t know what relevance your question has.
    In the meantime I’m interested in your 3 abused you fear will be perpetrated in the 2018 mother and baby home.

    So have you been living under a rock or what?

    Aras Attracta, for one recent example of abuse in a HSE-run institution.

    Or how about the more recent examples discovered in the foster home in Galway?
    https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2018/0424/956780-foster-home-galway/

    Or this plea from CARI a few years ago: https://www.thejournal.ie/hse-child-sex-abuse-866962-Apr2013/

    Or this, totally different, foster home that recorded abuses from the 80’s right up to 2009: http://www.thejournal.ie/abuse-foster-care-hse-2573716-Jan2016/

    Add in the fact that a 2018 mother & baby home would likely house only adult women, and that a large percentage of the population seem to think women in this situation are shameful sluts who get what they deserve. How can you guarantee that these 2018 mother& baby home staff will be respectful, supportive and non-abusive 100% of the time when the HSE can’t even provide that for kids and disabled people (who nobody in their right mind would regard as being shameful or deserving of their situation).

    I’m not saying everyone involved in the above institutions are out to make life awful for their residents, nor would staff in a 2018-version of a mother & baby home. But why risk it? It’s clear that unless the HSE is actively on top of the staff in these institutions, the few who are up to no good can find ways to abuse their patients.

    What good would come from forcing expectant mothers into a mother & baby home, in your opinion? And how much risk are you prepared to tolerate? Would you send your own female relations to one? If not, why not?


  • #5176
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    I’m saying it happens and it’s been reported look at the Keith Burke case as an example, but good deflection attempt, particularly as you ask originally what I would see as potential abuses and not if I had witnessed them.

    So you don’t want your taxes to be spent on social welfare in the form of children’s allowance etc, but would b happy to see them spent in mother and baby homes?
    so what’s your solution to people whose contraception fails and should in your opinion not receive state benefits for their third child and need this money?

    Methinks they don't see a link.


  • #5177
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I work in a residential unit. Adult and child residents. No one on staff is abusive that I know of but lack of resources, red tape and ridiculous regulations mean we can't always do our jobs the way we'd like and as a result we can't always meet the needs of our residents. It's abuse by the state as opposed to individuals as would have happened in the homes of old but its still abuse.

    Plenty of excellent foster parents too evil twin, but as you know there has been reported cases of abuse in nursing homes by some staff.


  • #5178
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    Methinks they don't see a link.

    LoveBoth blinkers?


  • #5179
    BabysCoffee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,713 ✭✭✭BabysCoffee


    ricero wrote: »
    I saw a statistic that the NHS pay for up to 95% of abortions in UK clinics.

    On demand is a woman having up to 3 or 4 abortions in her lifetime. I think this legislation has been rushed in without proper planning


    What type of women do you know that would want 3 or 4 abortions?

    Think of your mother, your daughter, your sisters, your cousins, your friends. Would you trust them to not choose 3 or 4 abortions in their lifetime?

    Trust women


  • #5180
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Plenty of excellent foster parents too evil twin, but as you know there has been reported cases of abuse in nursing homes by some staff.

    I'm agreeing with you 100%, I know some of our residents have been in the system for years and have experience of verbal abuse, sexual misconduct etc. The stories that make the news are the most extreme but low level abuse is rampant.

    I can't believe any home for pregnant women wouldn't be the same.


  • #5181
    Wrongway1985
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Wrongway1985


    RobertKK wrote: »
    I have not changed my opinion from what I read or heard, it doesn’t change what is being proposed if Yes wins. I just can’t vote for something when it is something I disagree with. Some argue ‘it won’t affect you’, but it does, I never vote against my conscience as it is something I have to live with it, so I will vote with my conscience and whatever the outcome I will know my conscience is clear, because there would be no point in me voting yes and then acting ignorant as if I didn’t know what Yes would lead to in this case

    Bob we all know a No vote will lead to absolutely nothing changing, we've had years and years of stories over various forms of media and people pleading for the government have the help available here. How many people over the years have pleaded on the same platforms to restrict pregnant women from travelling? as I don't recall any.

    If a No vote goes through how long do you think it is before a No voter is on those very platforms saying I voted No but...I never thought I'd end up in this position...I felt my country turned it's back....etc.??

    Your conscience would appear to be holding you back, you have not had any strings pulled by what you have seen or read after all this time on these threads really? Too busy looking at some apparent government agenda notions or slamming people dressing up as angels and whatnot there's prob not time for compassion to creep in I suppose. No wonder the trust women slogan irritates you so much your conscience rightly tells you to not have distain for women however you can't trust women only those who line up with your morals must be a blow to the auld ego alright.


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  • #5182
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I'm agreeing with you 100%, I know some of our residents have been in the system for years and have experience of verbal abuse, sexual misconduct etc. The stories that make the news are the most extreme but low level abuse is rampant.

    I can't believe any home for pregnant women wouldn't be the same.

    Last job I worked we used to set up IT systems for the healthcare sector, which included both public and private nursing homes.

    Plenty of dedicated staff, but I hope that I never end up in one be it public or private.


  • #5183
    Wrongway1985
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Wrongway1985


    ricero wrote: »
    On demand is a woman having up to 3 or 4 abortions in her lifetime. I think this legislation has been rushed in without proper planning

    That's the newest interpretation of this on demand business I've heard tbh.


  • #5184
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    spookwoman wrote: »
    He seems to be in favour of prostitution as well I wonder what would he do if he got one knocked up, would he offer to adopt it and if she arrived at his doorstep looking for maintenance what would he do. I don't know if married but I recon the wife would no be too happy.

    The poster is female I believe from reading their other posts in relation to this and other topics.


  • #5185
    spookwoman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,059 ✭✭✭✭spookwoman


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    The poster is female I believe from reading their other posts in relation to this and other topics.
    No problem so I wonder would she be ok if her boyfriend, partner, husband knocked up a prostitute would she adopt etc. :)


  • #5186
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Wrongway1985 wrote: »
    That's the newest interpretation of this on demand business I've heard tbh.

    Not really Robertkk brought it up earlier, if my memory serves me correctly


  • #5187
    bootpaws
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74 ✭✭bootpaws


    spookwoman wrote: »
    This just posted on Twitter disgusting behavior by the No side

    https://twitter.com/tonyismyname/status/995320012637462528

    The absolute irony of the no voters telling pro-repealers that they should've been aborted. It must be nice to hold a view you've thought so little about that you can just...say things like that with no further thought on how f**king stupid you sound.


  • #5188
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    spookwoman wrote: »
    This just posted on Twitter disgusting behavior by the No side

    https://twitter.com/tonyismyname/status/995320012637462528

    Removing as Bootpaws already posted basically the same.


  • #5189
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Hmmm people stating that people campaigning to repealing the 8th should have aborted by their mothers, irony?

    I assume they're going for the kill one to save the many kind of idea.


  • #5190
    Wrongway1985
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Wrongway1985


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Not really Robertkk brought it up earlier, if my memory serves me correctly

    Missed that, other no voters seemed to think it was no limits just the woman's request.

    Of course it's implied women with wanted pregnancies shall be availing of the procedure too ya know just coz :rolleyes:


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  • #5191
    erica74
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭erica74


    ricero wrote: »
    I saw a statistic that the NHS pay for up to 95% of abortions in UK clinics.

    On demand is a woman having up to 3 or 4 abortions in her lifetime. I think this legislation has been rushed in without proper planning

    What legislation has been rushed in? We haven't even voted yet.

    Would you prefer to pay for all the costs associated with a child or the costs of an abortion? I'm saying this obviously not knowing what way the cost of the process will work out.

    What are the stats on women travelling from Ireland for 3 or 4 abortions?


This discussion has been closed.
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