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8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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  • #2672
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    Have a read of these statistics, its depressing.

    DOMESTIC INFANT ADOPTIONS
    2016 - 5 infants
    2015 - 7 infants
    2014 - 6 infants
    2013 - 10 infants
    2012 - 3 infants

    Even the other stats in that link are just sad. Demonstrably, there is no shortage of orphaned children to adopt, there is a shortage of all of these “poor infertile families just lining up to adopt” that you hear about from the Pro-Birth side.


  • #2673
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,106 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Adoption is not an alternative to a termination and I wish people would realise that you cannot enforce 9 months of a pregnancy on a woman.

    You cannot do this now, in accordance with the 12th and 13th amendment.
    And when the 8th is repealed you cannot do it on Irish soil either.


  • #2674
    Crea
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Crea


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    Have a read of these statistics, its depressing.

    DOMESTIC INFANT ADOPTIONS
    2016 - 5 infants
    2015 - 7 infants
    2014 - 6 infants
    2013 - 10 infants
    2012 - 3 infants

    Yet 3000 kids on care.


  • #2675
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,914 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Overheal wrote: »
    Even the other stats in that link are just sad. Demonstrably, there is no shortage of orphaned children to adopt, there is a shortage of all of these “poor infertile families just lining up to adopt” that you hear about from the Pro-Birth side.

    there are more than enough people willing to adopt. Up until last year the legal obstacles made it nearly impossible. It is why out of country adoptions are so popular here. Even for these it is a long and tortuous road but there are many willing to take it.


  • #2676
    iguana
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    threescompany wrote: »
    Regarding the Downs Syndrome abortions....... please watch “a world without Downs Syndrome “
    It’s been on channel 4 a few times so I’m sure it’s on repeat somewhere. We all want to be informed so please just watch this. The statistics are more than 90% in many European countries. Just watch the TV programme and come to your own conclusions. Aborting Downs babies is the absolute norm over there. Please don’t argue that. It’s a fact. It’s extremely insulting to try and argue it when it’s a fact so please continue with your repeal debate but accept that almost all Downs babies are aborted in UK, France, Belgium, Germany , Iceland ..... oh yeh, their choice, I forgot!!

    And what do you think is going to happen in the coming decades when genome editing means that Trisomy conditions are alterable in utero? There have been huge advances in this field of research in the last 5 years, so the likelihood of this being the reality during our lifetimes is high. Do you think anyone will choose to have a baby with Down's Syndrome (or the FFAs Eduard's and Patau's) when the extra chromosome can be switched off? And will it be a tragedy then?


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  • #2677
    The Legend Of Kira
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 726 ✭✭✭The Legend Of Kira


    iguana wrote: »
    OMFG. Has anyone seen what some of the No side have been up to in Simon Harris' constituency, particularly around his constituency office? This is an appalling new low. I feel sick about it. Harris election posters with the image of a miscarried foetus/stillborn baby behind him.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/simon-harris-criticises-disgusting-abortion-posters-using-his-image-1.3487839

    (Warning, the images are graphic, so don't scroll too far down the link if you aren't prepared to see them.)
    1/ I don,t agree with personalised attacks on anyone on either side of the argument such as this poster is doing.  2/ I hear quite a few of these posters have being placed around primary schools something I totally disagree with kids shouldn,t be faced with these kind of poster outside their schools.  3/ Schools + hospitals should be off limits for any sort of graphic posters/banners.


  • #2678
    ASISEEIT
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 155 ✭✭ASISEEIT


    Dressing gown wrote: »
    It would definitely increase the numbers. At the moment it is only those with means that can travel. There are no voters that are squeamish about it but comfort themselves that going to England is an option instead anyway. But I was having a look at abortion stats in Scotland, and the majority of women having abortions are those from deprived backgrounds. So, yes I believe the figures will go up, but those women from deprived backgrounds deserve to have a choice as well and at the moment they don’t and that is wrong.

    Confusing point. Have you any real evidence that women from deprived backgrounds are being denied an abortion. Irish women?


  • #2679
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,106 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    ASISEEIT wrote: »
    Confusing point. Have you any real evidence that women from deprived backgrounds are being denied an abortion. Irish women?
    Considering the cost of last minute fligths, hotel stay, consultation and procedure and flights home could easily top 1500-2000, I would say that's evidence aplenty


  • #2680
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    Hey all, sorry if this has already been mentioned but saw this on RTÉ just now. Good stuff.

    A8_B24_C5_D-_A698-477_A-_A28_A-_A28_B90718_D62.jpg


  • #2681
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,949 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Here's  a question someone brought up in work ,One that iv never heard discussed
    If the YES goes through which it likely will ,
    If a pregnant women is assaulted in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy , Will it be considered an assaults now 
    I believe before there have been cases where it was assault and attempted murder ,


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  • #2682
    Calina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    iguana wrote: »
    threescompany wrote: »
    Regarding the Downs Syndrome abortions....... please watch “a world without Downs Syndrome “
    It’s been on channel 4 a few times so I’m sure it’s on repeat somewhere. We all want to be informed so please just watch this. The statistics are more than 90% in many European countries. Just watch the TV programme and come to your own conclusions. Aborting Downs babies is the absolute norm over there. Please don’t argue that. It’s a fact. It’s extremely insulting to try and argue it when it’s a fact so please continue with your repeal debate but accept that almost all Downs babies are aborted in UK, France, Belgium, Germany , Iceland ..... oh yeh, their choice, I forgot!!

    And what do you think is going to happen in the coming decades when genome editing means that Trisomy conditions are alterable in utero? There have been huge advances in this field of research in the last 5 years, so the likelihood of this being the reality during our lifetimes is high. Do you think anyone will choose to have a baby with Down's Syndrome (or the FFAs Eduard's and Patau's) when the extra chromosome can be switched off? And will it be a tragedy then?

    The same army who are morally not in favour of IVF will be morally against it. Given the overlap with those who are morally against abortion...


  • #2683
    spookwoman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,059 ✭✭✭✭spookwoman


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    Can we now extradite that South African (I think) pox from the Bioethics crowd ???

    Dreadful person he is so!

    I don't think he can vote unless he became an irish citizen


  • #2684
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    iguana wrote: »
    And what do you think is going to happen in the coming decades when genome editing means that Trisomy conditions are alterable in utero? There have been huge advances in this field of research in the last 5 years, so the likelihood of this being the reality during our lifetimes is high. Do you think anyone will choose to have a baby with Down's Syndrome (or the FFAs Eduard's and Patau's) when the extra chromosome can be switched off? And will it be a tragedy then?

    As someone with a brother with a disability, its a grand thing for them to be forcing women into having these children when they aren't the ones to have to raise them.

    Nothing p*sses me off more than when I see people on about people with DS, and other disabilities, saying aren't they lovely happy people always smiling.

    NO. They're just like other people.
    Yes they are happy but they can also be sulky and cranky and whingy and timid and angry, and every other emotion in between.

    Its so offensive for people to firstly, categorise them all under one big umbrella ("Ah sure they're all such happy smiley people"), and secondly, to undermine and dismiss the level of care and attention they need.
    Its nothing to be sneezing at.
    Its not a minor inconvenience. With a lot of disabilities, DS included, they need lifelong 24 hour care and will never be fully independent.

    This can be a huge burden on a family, especially on the other children.
    There is nothing wrong or shameful about deciding to abort because they cannot offer that level of care to a child, especially if its at the expense of their other children's needs.

    Its very easy to be on the outside judging women and families when they aren't the ones signing up for a lifetime of caring for a person with additional needs.
    It truly is a vocation, and shouldn't be taken on lightly.


  • #2685
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Here's  a question someone brought up in work ,One that iv never heard discussed
    If the YES goes through which it likely will ,
    If a pregnant women is assaulted in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy , Will it be considered an assaults now 
    I believe before there have been cases where it was assault and attempted murder ,

    of course it will, the proposed legislation doesn't mention anything about assault. If a woman has been assaulted, it counts as assault, why would you think it wouldn't?


  • #2686
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #2687
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    of course it will, the proposed legislation doesn't mention anything about assault. If a woman has been assaulted, it counts as assault, why would you think it wouldn't?

    I think a lot of No voters fear that after a Yes vote and a repeal every pregnant woman will be off down the old Marie Stopes clinic to get rid - so they can go back to enjoying their "career gal lifestyle".

    :mad::mad::mad:


  • #2688
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,949 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Here's  a question someone brought up in work ,One that iv never heard discussed
    If the YES goes through which it likely will ,
    If a pregnant women is assaulted in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy , Will it be considered an assaults now 
    I believe before there have been cases where it was assault and attempted murder ,

    of course it will, the proposed legislation doesn't mention anything about assault. If a woman has been assaulted, it counts as assault, why would you think it wouldn't?
    Your not getting me, the assault is always there but there has been also the attempted murder charge for the infant they are pregnant with


  • #2689
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,949 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    It has never been assault and attempted murder in Ireland as we do not recognise a fetus as a person in law.

    They do have a destruction of an unborn child in some other countries but it would be highly unlikely to apply in the first 12 weeks of a pregnancy. And they dont have "attempted destruction of an unborn child".

    Up to 20% of pregnancies end in miscarriage in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy spontaneously anyway so you could argue that theres no way of knowing what caused it.[/quote]
    I see
    I'm not arguing either way, I'm simply asking the question as I didn't know the answer


  • #2690
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    As someone with a brother with a disability, its a grand thing for them to be forcing women into having these children when they aren't the ones to have to raise them.

    Nothing p*sses me off more than when I see people on about people with DS, and other disabilities, saying aren't they lovely happy people always smiling.

    NO. They're just like other people.
    Yes they are happy but they can also be sulky and cranky and whingy and timid and angry, and every other emotion in between.

    Its so offensive for people to firstly, categorise them all under one big umbrella ("Ah sure they're all such happy smiley people"), and secondly, to undermine and dismiss the level of care and attention they need.
    Its nothing to be sneezing at.
    Its not a minor inconvenience. With a lot of disabilities, DS included, they need lifelong 24 hour care and will never be fully independent.

    This can be a huge burden on a family, especially on the other children.
    There is nothing wrong or shameful about deciding to abort because they cannot offer that level of care to a child, especially if its at the expense of their other children's needs.

    Its very easy to be on the outside judging women and families when they aren't the ones signing up for a lifetime of caring for a person with additional needs.
    It truly is a vocation, and shouldn't be taken on lightly.

    Exactly what I said not long back, I have a nephew with autism.

    I love him dearly but what his mum goes through I could not cope with.

    Some people should take a step in other's shoes before commenting.

    You're a good sister.


  • #2691
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    ASISEEIT wrote: »
    Confusing point. Have you any real evidence that women from deprived backgrounds are being denied an abortion. Irish women?

    I couldn't afford to travel so I had to self-administer abortion pills that I had bought from the internet at home, unsafely and without proper medical advice (a medical survey on a website is all it took). I was terrified of going to the hospital if something were to go wrong.


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  • #2692
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,914 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Your not getting me, the assault is always there but there has been also the attempted murder charge for the infant they are pregnant with


    really? what are you basing this on? Considering even having an illegal abortion now is not considered murder of the unborn on what basis would a charge of attempted murder apply?


  • #2693
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Your not getting me, the assault is always there but there has been also the attempted murder charge for the infant they are pregnant with

    Not in Ireland. Never has been, good question to ask though.


  • #2694
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,949 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Your not getting me, the assault is always there but there has been also the attempted murder charge for the infant they are pregnant with


    really? what are you basing this on?  Considering even having an illegal abortion now is not considered murder of the unborn on what basis would a charge of attempted murder apply?
    Put your nickers on there , I'm only asking the question , this tread is full of people ready to pounce on anyone with a different view, I'm only asking a question so chill .,


  • #2695
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,949 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Your not getting me, the assault is always there but there has been also the attempted murder charge for the infant they are pregnant with

    Not in Ireland.  Never has been, good question to ask though.
    Thanks for the valid response, Its gas the amount of people that jump on you in this tread for asking a valid question


  • #2696
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,914 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Put your nickers on there , I'm only asking the question , this tread is full of people ready to pounce on anyone with a different view, I'm only asking a question so chill .,

    you didnt ask a question. you made a statement. this one.
    the assault is always there but there has been also the attempted murder charge for the infant they are pregnant with


    Can i presume you just made that up and hoped nobody would call you out on it?


  • #2697
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Your not getting me, the assault is always there but there has been also the attempted murder charge for the infant they are pregnant with

    I don't think that's the case, and I can't think of any instances in this jurisdiction where that happened. There was one instance after the Omagh bombing, but that was in a different jurisdiction.

    The reason most people don't tell anyone they're pregnant until they're 8-12 weeks is because miscarriages happen so frequently up to this point, I imagine it could be very difficult to prove beyond reasonable doubt an attack was the cause of the miscarriage as opposed to a naturally occurring miscarriage.


  • #2698
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    January wrote: »
    I couldn't afford to travel so I had to self-administer abortion pills that I had bought from the internet at home, unsafely and without proper medical advice (a medical survey on a website is all it took). I was terrified of going to the hospital if something were to go wrong.

    This! I have a bit of a moan about the 8th impacting my healthcare (it is) but I'm not really at risk of death - aside from occasionally the pain getting too much that you look at the pills and go, hmmm should I ?

    But there are people risking blood loss and death through fear of going to prison.

    The 8th has to be repealed. Bless you January, horrible thing for anyone to have to go through.


  • #2699
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Kimbot wrote: »
    I have not seen any of those posts, if you see them use the report function so that the mods are aware of it and they will be dealt with accordinly.

    That's because, across all three threads, covering 22,500 posts (and counting) over a period of more than a full year since the first one was made, there have been a grand total TWO posts that simply state "repeal the 8th" with nothing else.

    Both instances:
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106872377
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106525866

    If you don't believe me, here are the searches.
    This thread (3rd): https://www.boards.ie/search/submit/?thread=2057867317&query=%22repeal+the+8th%22&user=&date_from=&date_to=
    Second thread: https://www.boards.ie/search/submit/?thread=2057852825&sort=best&date_to=&date_from=&query=%22repeal+the+8th%22&page=1
    First thread: https://www.boards.ie/search/submit/?thread=2057732408&sort=best&date_to=&date_from=&query=%22repeal+the+8th%22&page=1

    AnneFrank by comparison has done this three times in just 22 days, the latest coming less than 24 hours where they were on about how they would have voted to repeal the 8th amendment if not for reasons they refused to expand on beyond a one worded "legislation". When other posters looked to engage that further (see the posts below it) they not only refused to go into any further detail, but instead a few pages on just went back on their agenda of point blank ad hominem, off topic personal attacks on the poster 'ELM327' as ELM mentioned that they votes yes for SSM despite not being very comfortable with homosexuality.
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106738386
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106751247
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106935234

    I get that mods don't appreciate when someone says on the thread that a poster is a very clear and obvious troll with no interest in the topic other than trying to offend others for the simple goal of generating some attention towards themselves, so I won't. I'll just end my post here.


  • #2700
    bootpaws
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74 ✭✭bootpaws


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    As someone with a brother with a disability, its a grand thing for them to be forcing women into having these children when they aren't the ones to have to raise them.

    Nothing p*sses me off more than when I see people on about people with DS, and other disabilities, saying aren't they lovely happy people always smiling.

    NO. They're just like other people.
    Yes they are happy but they can also be sulky and cranky and whingy and timid and angry, and every other emotion in between.

    Its so offensive for people to firstly, categorise them all under one big umbrella ("Ah sure they're all such happy smiley people"), and secondly, to undermine and dismiss the level of care and attention they need.
    Its nothing to be sneezing at.
    Its not a minor inconvenience. With a lot of disabilities, DS included, they need lifelong 24 hour care and will never be fully independent.

    This can be a huge burden on a family, especially on the other children.
    There is nothing wrong or shameful about deciding to abort because they cannot offer that level of care to a child, especially if its at the expense of their other children's needs.

    Its very easy to be on the outside judging women and families when they aren't the ones signing up for a lifetime of caring for a person with additional needs.
    It truly is a vocation, and shouldn't be taken on lightly.

    You've honestly taken the words out of my mouth. As someone with a cousin who had DS (she passed away in her early thirties) the reality of her care is not something I ever see addressed by people shallowly sharing pictures of DS babies with captions like "Like and share if you think she is beautiful" or "Like and share if you could never abort this."

    I try to understand this generally comes from a place of well meaning, but it is so condescending to people who know and have lived with the realities of it. None of the people sharing these things have given time or thought to the families raising children with disabilities right now.


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  • #2701
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,949 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Put your nickers on there , I'm only asking the question , this tread is full of people ready to pounce on anyone with a different view, I'm only asking a question so chill .,

    you didnt ask a question.  you made a statement.  this one.
    the assault is always there but there has been also the attempted murder charge for the infant they are pregnant with


    Can i presume you just made that up and hoped nobody would call you out on it?
    I asked a question ,
     I had goggled it and it came up. But as a nice person pointed out that isn't in Ireland ,
    Why would I presume and hoped nobody noticed ?  I wanted to know the answer myself


This discussion has been closed.
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