Safer cycling, we can make a difference /MPDL thread

AndrewJRenko · 07-05-2018 06:25PM

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Absolutely nothing done about it - the Garda I was corresponding with, although sympathetic, pretty much admitted there was little they could do - they could show up and ticket people, but being opposite a school it would have caused issues.

Absolutely nothing they could do for sure - except possibly to enforce the law, like they're supposed to do. But interesting to note they say that they "are duty bound to acknowledge and respond to concerns raised by members of the public" so I presume if I ring them to report parents blocking the bike lane on St Stephen's Green, they'll send out four Gardai pronto to investigate.

Cookie_Monster · 07-05-2018 09:43PM

Pinch Flat wrote: »

the Garda I was corresponding with, although sympathetic, pretty much admitted there was little they could do - they could show up and ticket people, but being opposite a school it would have caused issues.

is it not even more important to enforce traffic safety around schools? I guess, not...

Rechuchote · 08-05-2018 09:15AM

Eight cyclists have died this year - the latest two not from car crashes (a mountain biker whose body was found by Dublin Wicklow Mountain Rescue after a huge search, and a man who became ill while on a charity cycle in Mayo).

But funding for cycling infrastructure - the UN says 'active travel' infra funding should be 20% of all transport spending - has been ruthlessly slashed by the current Minister for Finance, Paschal Donohoe, whose constituency is Dublin Central, an inner-city constituency spreading north and south of the Liffey.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/spend-on-cycling-infrastructure-falls-sharply-in-past-three-years-1.3485992

Figures provided by the Department of Transport show

almost €19 million was allocated to cycling infrastructure in 2015.
This almost halved to €10.5 million in 2016,
and fell further to €7 million in 2017.
Some €8 million is earmarked for cycling infrastructure in 2018, according to Minister for Transport Shane Ross (constituency: Dublin Rathdown, which includes areas from Dun Laoghaire through Clonskeagh and out to Churchtown and Stepaside.

magicbastarder · 08-05-2018 09:24AM

and good ould paschal is expected today to announce there's less money in the kitty (in general).

Pinch Flat · 08-05-2018 09:28AM

Quick numbers check - ireland is circa 85,000 km2 in area. That €8m adds up to just shy of €95 per square kilometre. Laughable.

Edit - further down in the article:

“A spokesman for the Department of Transport said more than €110 million in capital funding would go towards cycling and walking infrastructure in Dublin, Galway, Limerick, Cork and Waterford over the coming three years. Another €55 million is to be spent on Greenways outside the five cities.“

So sounds like a bit more funding, no?

Macy0161 · 08-05-2018 09:32AM

Shane Ross was hi fiving the riders off at the Orwell Randonee, but he didn't respond to "when is the law coming into place" from one of the lads... Garda dragging their heels on the equipment needed to enforce - must be waiting on an action cam from Ali...

buffalo · 08-05-2018 11:13AM

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Not sure if this is the right thread..

I see that 4 Gardai responded to a call from a motorist for the iBike guys cycle lane protection hour in Rathmines...

The language used that 'Gardaí are duty bound to acknowledge and respond to concerns raised by members of the public' leaves them open to a lot of criticism. There are many examples of people ringing the Gardaí to report all sorts of offences and crimes and them not attending the scene.

I'd love to get this Garda's number on speed-dial so they could respond to my concerns as a member of the public.

magicbastarder · 14-05-2018 05:31PM

Dublin’s South East area councillors have voted against holding public consultation on the South Dublin Quietway at a local area meeting in the last few minutes.
http://irishcycle.com/2018/05/14/councillors-vote-against-south-dublin-quietway/

Grassey · 14-05-2018 05:35PM

Jesus. Says it all when some object to a cycle route discussion because there is no public consultation...then use their vote to vote against having a public consultation.

14-05-2018 06:14PM

Wow Mannix Flynn voted against it, I'm shocked :rolleyes:

Kaisr Sose · 14-05-2018 08:43PM

Grassey wrote: »

Jesus. Says it all when some object to a cycle route discussion because there is no public consultation...then use their vote to vote against having a public consultation.

If you are beginning to think you understand how these things work, you are actually totally confused....

Rechuchote · 15-05-2018 09:33AM

Grassey wrote: »

Jesus. Says it all when some object to a cycle route discussion because there is no public consultation...then use their vote to vote against having a public consultation.

Apparently the NIMBYs were packed into the public gallery, breathing down the necks of saaairtain councillors…

Watch it and weep:

https://dublincity.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/348496#

tomasrojo · 15-05-2018 10:54AM

Dermot Lacey on Twitter last night kept emphasising the negative effect of the quietway on the residents of Marlborough Road. Those residents can't even get their cars out of their driveways and onto the road in the morning because of through-traffic. And when they do, they have to queue for multiple light cycles, and only a handful of cars can exit the road at the Donnybrook end with every green light.

check_six · 16-05-2018 01:11PM

tomasrojo wrote: »

Dermot Lacey on Twitter last night kept emphasising the negative effect of the quietway on the residents of Marlborough Road. Those residents can't even get their cars out of their driveways and onto the road in the morning because of through-traffic. And when they do, they have to queue for multiple light cycles, and only a handful of cars can exit the road at the Donnybrook end with every green light.

Sounds like something out of Mad Max, but with bicycles. I'm surprised that the clicking of freewheels roaring past at all hours wasn't mentioned as well.

magicbastarder · 28-07-2018 10:03AM

some setbacks for the MPDL; posted by stayin' alive at 1.5 to facebook yesterday:

In a nutshell, the best legal advice in the country (who by the way is also a cyclist) is telling us that the proposed MPDL wouldn’t survive a test in the court.
There were both constitutional rights issues and practical court issues which are advised as not to be able to be overcome, due to Irish Common law constraints.
DTTAS say that MPDL is unlikely to happen in current format proposals.
DTTAS stated their keenness to resolve this issue of close passing of cyclists. In light of above difficulty with MPDL they now propose a New Specific Dangerous Overtaking of Cyclists Law, with a specific fixed charge notice.

Rechuchote · 28-07-2018 10:44AM

The constitutional right to pass someone dangerously close? Which section of the Constitution is that in?

AndrewJRenko · 28-07-2018 11:22AM

Rechuchote wrote: »

The constitutional right to pass someone dangerously close? Which section of the Constitution is that in?

Seems like a strange conclusion, for sure - though the idea of a New Specific Dangerous Overtaking of Cyclists Law isn't a bad alternative.

Success will depend on Gardai attitudes, which at present aren't great. I reported a driver to Gardai a few months with video footage showing the driving handling/using the phone at four different occasions over the course of a few minutes in traffic. I saw closely enough to identify the style of phone - a Blackberry style phone with a physical keyboard, unusual enough these days. Gardai declined to prosecute, as it could have been 'any device' he had in his hands, apparently. I asked the Gardai what other kinds of devices he had in mind, and he told me that he didn't have to answer to me.

magicbastarder · 28-07-2018 11:49AM

Rechuchote wrote: »

The constitutional right to pass someone dangerously close? Which section of the Constitution is that in?

pure speculation here, as i'm no legal eagle, but i wouldn't be suprised if it was because the law would be based on a specific measurement, and no way to verify that in evidence. the 1 or 1.5m gap would be down to the judgement of a garda, which could have implications on the right to a fair trial.

Rechuchote · 28-07-2018 02:23PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Seems like a strange conclusion, for sure - though the idea of a New Specific Dangerous Overtaking of Cyclists Law isn't a bad alternative.

Success will depend on Gardai attitudes, which at present aren't great. I reported a driver to Gardai a few months with video footage showing the driving handling/using the phone at four different occasions over the course of a few minutes in traffic. I saw closely enough to identify the style of phone - a Blackberry style phone with a physical keyboard, unusual enough these days. Gardai declined to prosecute, as it could have been 'any device' he had in his hands, apparently. I asked the Gardai what other kinds of devices he had in mind, and he told me that he didn't have to answer to me.

Did you report this to GSOC?

AndrewJRenko · 28-07-2018 02:25PM

Rechuchote wrote: »

Did you report this to GSOC?

I hope to report it to the local Supt, but it's a real PITA to have to find time for this stuff.

DanDublin1982 · 28-07-2018 03:06PM

So let it be challenged ffs.

Having it out there publicised and taught as a rule that people can be told and potentially learn and be aware of is of no harm whatsoever.

magicbastarder · 28-07-2018 03:21PM

DanDublin1982 wrote: »

So let it be challenged ffs.

that'd be idiotic. bring in a law which (it's now a matter of public record) the AG thinks is problematic, and have it shot down in court? you can be guaranteed the first person able to afford the legal representation to challenge this will make hay with the fact the AG was unsure of it.
also, at what cost to the taxpayer, or the political will to actually get this done, on the assumption the law could be shot down?

Rechuchote · 28-07-2018 09:33PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

that'd be idiotic. bring in a law which (it's now a matter of public record) the AG thinks is problematic, and have it shot down in court? you can be guaranteed the first person able to afford the legal representation to challenge this will make hay with the fact the AG was unsure of it.
also, at what cost to the taxpayer, or the political will to actually get this done, on the assumption the law could be shot down?

As a taxpayer, I'd like my taxes to keep people safe.

TheChizler · 28-07-2018 09:38PM

I don't get this, convictions happen on the basis of Garda unmeasured opinion all the time, speeding, dangerous driving, drunk and disorderly etc.

magicbastarder · 28-07-2018 09:57PM

dangerous driving, or drunk and disorderly don't require specific measurements, AFAIK.
if you're basing a conviction on an actual measurement - a passing distance of 1m or 1.5m - this implies you can or should actually measure it.

our drink driving laws actually require level of intoxication to be measured. you can't get done for drink driving because the garda 'reckons' you were drunk, your alcohol level is measured, because the law states a specific threshold. if you're going to base an MPDL on a specific passing distance, it's a bit of a shortcoming in the enforcement of that law if you can't *prove* that distance was breached.

TheChizler · 28-07-2018 10:06PM

How about the case of speeding then? P u rely anecdotal but over the years on boards I've come to the understanding that a Garda doesn't necessarily have to measure speed and their opinion can be counted as evidence, or is this incorrect?

It is possible to measure with video anyway, to the same level as two-picture speed cameras. You pick a point of reference and calculate from there.

DanDublin1982 · 28-07-2018 10:08PM

The law exists in other countries right? Why would it be more difficult to implement here. The opinion that it would be difficult to implement is nothing more than an opinion. I don't claim to know better than those giving that opinion but I say let the actual courts deal with this, not just some peoples opinions. The advice shouldn't be out in the public domain anyway!!

magicbastarder · 28-07-2018 10:21PM

DanDublin1982 wrote: »

I don't claim to know better than those giving that opinion but I say let the actual courts deal with this, not just some peoples opinions.

well, one of the opinions in play is the AGs, and he has cited possible constitutional issues. i don't know what they are, but our constitution is different from other countries, which could lead to those differences.
also, i've seen videos of operations in other countries where police do actually have equipment to measure passing distance; perhaps there is an inertia/procedural/legal issue with that here. but i don't know whether in those countries, the law is only enforceable by police with that specific equipment - would be genuinely interested to learn if this is the case.

i.e. if we're able to point out that the law is enforceable in other countries, it'd be good to know if it's only enforceable in specific contexts. in those countries, is it a case that it's only enforced in proactive operations by police?

Beasty · 28-07-2018 10:28PM

Can't say I'm particularly surprised. I pointed out in an earlier thread that on some Irish roads it's not physically possible to provide that much clearance when overtaking. Often, where it is possible, solid white lines turn make into an illegal action. Whether there are any legal challenges though is another matter.

DanDublin1982 · 28-07-2018 10:47PM

Change the AG and you possibly get a changed opinion. It's not facts being stated. I would hope his opinion will be countered by some of the stuff you're talking about too. And if there are constitutional issues then we have the mechanisms to change those too, no matter how ridiculous that might sound.

The idea that something MIGHT not be constitutional is not reason enough to not legislate. That is something the courts should decide.

Especially so in a case like this where the potential benefits of the introduction of this law are pretty clear and clearly outweigh the idea that some ball bag with more money than sense would challenge it on those grounds.

Safer cycling, we can make a difference /MPDL thread

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