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8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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  • #2372
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Of course and some women are pressured into abortion due to their careers.



    https://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/10/09/1034061257016.html

    You've linked one woman.

    I asked you have you got any statistical evidence to back up your claim that a majority of the 97% of women who abort on medical grounds are doing so due to lifestyle choices and career pressures/moves.

    Have you provided any evidence to back your claim up? Any statistics to show that 49% of these women abort for the reasons you suggest?


  • #2373
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    You've linked one woman.

    I asked you have you got any statistical evidence to back up your claim that a majority of the 97% of women who abort on medical grounds are doing so due to lifestyle choices and career pressures/moves.

    Have you provided any evidence to back your claim up? Any statistics to show that 49% of these women abort for the reasons you suggest?

    Nice gloss over...
    Most abortions related to unwanted or unplanned pregnancy will usually be carried out on grounds C or, rarely, grounds D (for example, if the woman has other children who she feels she wouldn't be able to care for adequately if she had another).
    As the report demonstrated, in 2013 97% of abortions (180,680) were carried out on grounds C.

    https://www.nhs.uk/news/pregnancy-and-child/are-career-girl-lifestyle-abortions-on-the-rise/

    So the NHS says they were done under the mental health part of the legislation...but then goes onto the reason for the abortions: "Overall, the report only provides us with facts, not explanations."
    So the NHS doesn't believe they were for mental health as the grounds for the abortion - mental health was not the explanation for the abortions...


  • #2374
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    No, RobertKK, I'm not.

    I was referring to enforced pregnancies to pay pensions, and never mentioned sharia law.

    I can go and find it, if you want.


    This one or would there be others ?


    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106465405&postcount=7


  • #2375
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    fritzelly wrote: »
    Oooh surprise - a website run by an anti abortion supporter

    How can one educate themselves if they only want to read what Yes people say, I mean yes people as in people who agree with one's own opinion.


  • #2376
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Bruce Arnold did an article on the referendum, he said the government rushed the legislation and didn't take into account the Supreme court ruling that the 8th amendment is the only legal right to life the unborn have.
    He goes into how this rushed referendum is full of flaws.

    He also brought up the effect of abortion on populations.
    https://www.frontpage.org/ie/different-voice/the-devil-in-the-small-print/

    Also unborn human life to have less protections than some animal and bird life. which includes the unborn lives of some protected wildlife.

    This would be Bruce Arnold, whose field of expertise is literary and art criticisms?

    Why in the name of jaysis should anyone take that spiel, where he uses a lot of words, but manages to say sweet **** all, about what might, might, might happen, over the word of women and men that are telling how the 8th impacts them right now?


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  • #2377
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    gctest50 wrote: »
    This one or would there be others ?


    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106465405&postcount=7

    No mention of Sharia law.
    You proved my point, thank you.


  • #2378
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Nice gloss over...



    https://www.nhs.uk/news/pregnancy-and-child/are-career-girl-lifestyle-abortions-on-the-rise/

    So the NHS says they were done under the mental health part of the legislation...but then goes onto the reason for the abortions: "Overall, the report only provides us with facts, not explanations."
    So the NHS doesn't believe they were for mental health as the grounds for the abortion - mental health was not the explanation for the abortions...

    Nice gloss over...
    The Department of Health report provides us with facts only, not explanations. It does not discuss the possibilities for the changes in trends seen, and all media reports of "career girl" or "lifestyle" abortions suggesting abortion is sometimes used as a method of contraception are pure speculation only, with no foundation in this report.

    Did you even read what you linked, honestly?


  • #2379
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Nice gloss over...



    https://www.nhs.uk/news/pregnancy-and-child/are-career-girl-lifestyle-abortions-on-the-rise/

    So the NHS says they were done under the mental health part of the legislation...but then goes onto the reason for the abortions: "Overall, the report only provides us with facts, not explanations."
    So the NHS doesn't believe they were for mental health as the grounds for the abortion - mental health was not the explanation for the abortions...



    You forgot to put in this part :

    While the total number of abortions in England and Wales has increased, the rate of abortions has actually decreased.



  • #2380
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    RobertKK wrote: »
    robarmstrong wrote: »
    You've linked one woman.

    I asked you have you got any statistical evidence to back up your claim that a majority of the 97% of women who abort on medical grounds are doing so due to lifestyle choices and career pressures/moves.

    Have you provided any evidence to back your claim up? Any statistics to show that 49% of these women abort for the reasons you suggest?

    Nice gloss over...
    Most abortions related to unwanted or unplanned pregnancy will usually be carried out on grounds C or, rarely, grounds D (for example, if the woman has other children who she feels she wouldn't be able to care for adequately if she had another).
    As the report demonstrated, in 2013 97% of abortions (180,680) were carried out on grounds C.

    https://www.nhs.uk/news/pregnancy-and-child/are-career-girl-lifestyle-abortions-on-the-rise/

    So the NHS says they were done under the mental health part of the legislation...but then goes onto the reason for the abortions: "Overall, the report only provides us with facts, not explanations."
    So the NHS doesn't believe they were for mental health as the grounds for the abortion - mental health was not the explanation for the abortions...

    "Career girl"???

    I just vomited in my mouth at that


  • #2381
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    This would be Bruce Arnold, whose field of expertise is literary and art criticisms?

    Why in the name of jaysis should anyone take that spiel, where he uses a lot of words, but manages to say sweet **** all, about what might, might, might happen, over the word of women and men that are telling how the 8th impacts them right now?

    Do you disagree that the Supreme Court ruled that the 8th amendment was the only protection in Irish law for the unborn and their right to life?


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  • #2382
    fritzelly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,114 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly


    RobertKK wrote: »
    How can one educate themselves if they only want to read what Yes people say, I mean yes people as in people who agree with one's own opinion.

    You only have to listen to the man talk for a few minutes to realise his views are not in line with the majority of the world


  • #2383
    bootpaws
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74 ✭✭bootpaws


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    Do you think the alternative, which would be forcing them to go through with a pregnancy and impending motherhood that they do not want, to be better?

    Would you say putting a woman into a corner like that is in the best interests of either herself or an innocent baby?

    You are over simplifying it with your whole notion of being ‘perturbed by the idea of giving birth’. These women aren’t seeking abortions because they’re afraid of the labor and birthing process.

    I agree with you in principle but I would just like to point out to that poster you quoted (and maybe others) that some women (hi!) actually ARE quite afraid of the labour and birthing process. It’s a named phobia and everything.

    As I try to emphasise time and again to those who would force pregnancy on the unwilling, it is not a walk in the park.

    Pregnancy comes with so so many strange, frightening, uncomfortable, painful, and frankly quite gross side effects. Then throw in the idea of labour and the actual birth and it’s...shudder worthy for me.

    It frightens me to no end and I could never do it. If I were to become pregnant the idea of 9 months of such trauma would truly be too much to bear, and I would seek an abortion because of that. There would be other reasons (I can barely support myself financially right now, I don’t own a home, I suffer with anxiety and depression) but that would be a significant one and I’m not going to hide it.

    This idea that women by our very nature ought to suck up the idea of 9 months of body transformation, discomfort and pain, then a potentially traumatic labour and birth (especially if you’re living with the 8th looming over you) is so harmful and strange.

    Again this isn’t aimed at you in particular, and we are very much on the same side! It’s just a major gripe I have with anti-choice folks in general. As if it’s not a big ask to put us through all of that for an end result baby we may not even want.


  • #2384
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    gctest50 wrote: »
    You forgot to put in this part :

    A decrease from a very high level to still a very high level.


  • #2385
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    gctest50 wrote: »
    You forgot to put in this part :

    and this part
    The Department of Health report provides us with facts only, not explanations. It does not discuss the possibilities for the changes in trends seen, and all media reports of "career girl" or "lifestyle" abortions suggesting abortion is sometimes used as a method of contraception are pure speculation only, with no foundation in this report.

    "all media reports of career girl or lifestyle abortions suggesting abortion is sometimes used as a method of contraception are pure speculation only, with no foundation in this report" - conveniently glossed over by good aul Bob.


  • #2386
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    This would be Bruce Arnold, whose field of expertise is literary and art criticisms?

    Why in the name of jaysis should anyone take that spiel, where he uses a lot of words, but manages to say sweet **** all, about what might, might, might happen, over the word of women and men that are telling how the 8th impacts them right now?

    Do you disagree that the Supreme Court ruled that the 8th amendment was the only protection in Irish law for the unborn and their right to life?

    And quite right too that hopefully it is soon to be removed.


  • #2387
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    Nice gloss over...



    Did you even read what you linked, honestly?

    Imitation, one knows what they say about that even if unintended...

    My point still stands, they had abortions under the mental health section, but strangely the NHS implies it is not mental health as the reason as it is not viewed as the explanation.


  • #2388
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    And quite right too that hopefully it is soon to be removed.

    Is it right that the unborn of some wildlife would have more protections in law than the unborn of humans?


  • #2389
    The_Brood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 838 ✭✭✭The_Brood


    bootpaws wrote: »
    You seem to be answering a question nobody asked. At 12 weeks, it is not a baby, and that is a fact.

    In your own words, if left uninterrupted it will, over the course of 9 months, develop into one. That’s never been the discussion.

    If a woman, within a certain timeframe before the foetus has a brain or developed nervous system, decides to interrupt that development because she needs to, then that is her decision and her business.

    What is your point?

    Absolutely cannot understand then why it should be wrong for parents to let their 1 month old baby die? Why would it be anyone else's business what they do?


  • #2390
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Imitation, one knows what they say about that even if unintended...

    My point still stands, they had abortions under the mental health section, but strangely the NHS implies it is not mental health as the reason as it is not viewed as the explanation.

    You say imitation, I say mocking.

    No, they don't imply it at all, hence - The Department of Health report provides us with facts only, not explanations. It does not discuss the possibilities for the changes in trends seen, and all media reports of "career girl" or "lifestyle" abortions suggesting abortion is sometimes used as a method of contraception are pure speculation only, with no foundation in this report.

    What part of pure speculation only, with no foundation do you not understand?

    You have not yet given me anything to back up your wildly fantastical misogynistic claims.


  • #2391
    bootpaws
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74 ✭✭bootpaws


    The_Brood wrote: »
    Absolutely cannot understand then why it should be wrong for parents to let their 1 month old baby die? Why would it be anyone else's business what they do?

    Do you think a 12 week foetus and a 1 month old baby are the same thing?


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  • #2392
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    RobertKK wrote: »
    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    And quite right too that hopefully it is soon to be removed.

    Is it right that the unborn of some wildlife would have more protections in law than the unborn of humans?

    Is it right that mythical foetuses that don't exist are being used to deny women healthcare?


  • #2393
    The_Brood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 838 ✭✭✭The_Brood


    bootpaws wrote: »
    Do you think a 12 week foetus and a 1 month old baby are the same thing?

    Do you think that a 1 month old baby and a 30 year old woman are the same thing?

    No? Then why are they afforded the same rights to life?


  • #2394
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    The_Brood wrote: »
    Do you think that a 1 month old baby and a 30 year old woman are the same thing?

    No? Then why are they afforded the same rights to life?

    Because they are both born citizens.


  • #2395
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    The_Brood wrote: »
    bootpaws wrote: »
    Do you think a 12 week foetus and a 1 month old baby are the same thing?

    Do you think that a 1 month old baby and a 30 year old woman are the same thing?

    No? Then why are they afforded the same rights to life?

    Because the 8th amendment is a stain on the humanity of my country


  • #2396
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Imitation, one knows what they say about that even if unintended...

    My point still stands, they had abortions under the mental health section, but strangely the NHS implies it is not mental health as the reason as it is not viewed as the explanation.



    RobertKK wrote: »
    ..............

    but strangely the NHS implies it is not mental health as the reason as it is not viewed as the explanation.


    Point out where the NHS imply this ?


  • #2397
    bootpaws
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74 ✭✭bootpaws


    The_Brood wrote: »
    Do you think that a 1 month old baby and a 30 year old woman are the same thing?

    No? Then why are they afforded the same rights to life?

    Do you think a 12 week foetus and a 1 month old baby are the same thing? [x2]


  • #2398
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    You say imitation, I say mocking.

    No, they don't imply it at all, hence - The Department of Health report provides us with facts only, not explanations. It does not discuss the possibilities for the changes in trends seen, and all media reports of "career girl" or "lifestyle" abortions suggesting abortion is sometimes used as a method of contraception are pure speculation only, with no foundation in this report.

    What part of pure speculation only, with no foundation do you not understand?

    You have not yet given me anything to back up your wildly fantastical misogynistic claims.

    Go to sleep, you are calling women anti-women as many women will vote no, butt hey are misogynists in your warped view.

    To quote Oscar Wilde “Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness.”


  • #2399
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    RobertKK wrote: »
    robarmstrong wrote: »
    You say imitation, I say mocking.

    No, they don't imply it at all, hence - The Department of Health report provides us with facts only, not explanations. It does not discuss the possibilities for the changes in trends seen, and all media reports of "career girl" or "lifestyle" abortions suggesting abortion is sometimes used as a method of contraception are pure speculation only, with no foundation in this report.

    What part of pure speculation only, with no foundation do you not understand?

    You have not yet given me anything to back up your wildly fantastical misogynistic claims.

    Go to sleep, you are calling women anti-women as many women will bote no, butt hey are misogynists in your warped view.

    To quote Oscar Wilde “Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness.”

    You are so far away from Oscar Wilde it's scary.


  • #2400
    The_Brood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 838 ✭✭✭The_Brood


    bootpaws wrote: »
    Do you think a 12 week foetus and a 1 month old baby are the same thing? [x2]

    Do you think that a 1 month old baby and a 30 year old woman are the same thing? [x2]

    They are "the same thing" but at different stages of development and growth. One, unless it's life is lost, develops into the other. Very straight forward.


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  • #2401
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    gctest50 wrote: »
    Point out where the NHS imply this ?
    Overall, the report only provides us with facts, not explanations.

    The fact it was under mental health grounds, was not the explanation for the abortion...


This discussion has been closed.
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