Safer cycling, we can make a difference /MPDL thread

Macy0161 · 04-05-2018 10:00AM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Why are all the cyclist in the 1.5m pics dressed like idiots? I despair re the RSA, I'm surprised they didn't make Ross put a high vis on just to stand on the road

It's normalising it for motorists, and more worringly our judicial system (and a lot of cyclists too). Drives me nuts that this is the hidden message the RSA send out continually.

DavyD_83 · 04-05-2018 10:07AM

Surely the last thing we need is another law that is impractical and virtually impossible to enforce?
It's a good guideline, and drivers should try to implement where possible, but making it law just seems silly to me.
Why can't we just try and bring in sensible laws that people see the sense in and therefore follow.
And for God's same can somebody with authority and a basic understanding of cycling review the existing cycle tracks for usability and safety. Either make them safe and useful or get rid of them and stop pretending you care while cashing those EU road cheques.

tomasrojo · 04-05-2018 10:10AM

Macy0161 wrote: »

Drives me nuts that this is the hidden message the RSA send out continually.

Not so hidden. They're paying for Google Ads that follow me around when I use a browser with no ad-blocking, and the ads are "always wear a helmet when cycling" and "always wear luminous clothing when cycling".

Chips Lovell · 04-05-2018 10:11AM

I'd almost be tempted to buy pisstake ads....

loyatemu · 04-05-2018 10:45AM

DavyD_83 wrote: »

Surely the last thing we need is another law that is impractical and virtually impossible to enforce?
It's a good guideline, and drivers should try to implement where possible, but making it law just seems silly to me.

it's obviously not going to be enforced 100% of the time, but neither are speed limits and no-one thinks we should scrap those. It puts *legal* responsibility on the motorist. If you do clip a cyclist in your car you can't argue "oh he swerved, or wobbled" - you shouldn't have been so close in the first place.

Macy0161 · 04-05-2018 11:00AM

DavyD_83 wrote: »

Surely the last thing we need is another law that is impractical and virtually impossible to enforce?

As loyatemu, it will be enforceable where it causes accidents.

Some motorists might also get a shock as to how many cyclists (and regrettably feel the need for) have bike cameras!

DavyD_83 · 04-05-2018 02:53PM

loyatemu wrote: »

it's obviously not going to be enforced 100% of the time, but neither are speed limits and no-one thinks we should scrap those. It puts *legal* responsibility on the motorist. If you do clip a cyclist in your car you can't argue "oh he swerved, or wobbled" - you shouldn't have been so close in the first place.

I do tend to have simplified views on these things, but to me that is not how laws should work at all. If it only matters in cases where accidents occur is pretty irrelevant, in the vast majority of cases the motorist will already have done something either forbidden or frowned upon according to rules of the road.

To me, this will only increase the number of cyclists with cameras going around shouting that the are in the right.
I give it a week after implementation before the first videos appear on YouTube of enraged cyclists being passed (perfectly safely) at less than the min distance on roads that make it impossible to co-exist legally.

I'm a cyclist but the way, in case I sound like a bike - bashing driver.

Oh, and speed limits I believe should be modified in line with reality, so that they can be obeyed at all times.

magicbastarder · 04-05-2018 03:14PM

DavyD_83 wrote: »

Oh, and speed limits I believe should be modified in line with reality, so that they can be obeyed at all times.

what's stopping them being obeyed at all times currently?

DavyD_83 · 04-05-2018 03:58PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

what's stopping them being obeyed at all times currently?

Not looking to deal into a speed limits thread; there are a number of speed limits around the country which are just impractical, and of have been based on genuine safety advice I think this is something that should be readily available. If for example a certain number of speed tickets are issued at a certain location over a period of time, there is clearly an issue and that area and limits should be reviewed.
Is it is a genuine risk, to something to prevent the speedding (slalom, bumps, etc), or (shock, horror) increase the limit to stop criminalising ever driver using the road and let the gards get on with keeping ppl safe elsewhere.

But anyway, it's already illegal to hit a cyclist a far so an aware, so bases are covered if the only reason is to be able to charge ppl.
W need laws that actually stop criminal behaviour, not one's that let you punish ppl your don't like when it suits you.

Make separate and applicable rules for cyclists and/or put in place infrastructure to support these rules and rights.

Like I said, I know my views are seen as over - simple or outright ignorant by some.

eclipsechaser · 04-05-2018 04:44PM

silverharp wrote: »

Does anyone know the cause of the accident that killed a cyclist on the N11 recently?, the junction at Greenfield road is one I know well from cycling so hit a little close to home.

mod note - please, no discussion on the cause of the accident. if you've concrete information on the cause, tell the gardai, not boards.

CramCycle · 04-05-2018 04:52PM

DavyD_83 wrote: »

Not looking to deal into a speed limits thread; there are a number of speed limits around the country which are just impractical, and of have been based on genuine safety advice I think this is something that should be readily available. If for example a certain number of speed tickets are issued at a certain location over a period of time, there is clearly an issue and that area and limits should be reviewed.
Is it is a genuine risk, to something to prevent the speedding (slalom, bumps, etc), or (shock, horror) increase the limit to stop criminalising ever driver using the road and let the gards get on with keeping ppl safe elsewhere.

I would disagree immensely, just because many people feel they are competent enough to break the speed limit in a certain location, it does not mean the speed limit should be increased. In fact, all it shows is that this subset of people can't obey very basic instructions and to be honest, if they can't do that, then maybe they shouldn't be in charge of a machine capable of causing huge tragedy.

magicbastarder · 04-05-2018 06:10PM

DavyD_83 wrote: »

If for example a certain number of speed tickets are issued at a certain location over a period of time, there is clearly an issue and that area and limits should be reviewed.

or else you could argue that the issue in that area is that there are too many people speeding.
limits should not be reviewed based on how many people break the law. they should be reviewed based on common sense.

maybe that *would* be one way to stop speeding in ireland. raise *all* limits to 120km/h, and watch as the number of illegally speeding motorists simply evaporates.

Moflojo · 04-05-2018 06:18PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

what's stopping them being obeyed at all times currently?

Why were you speeding?

Because the speed limit was wrong, your honour.

CASE DISMISSED!!!

dr.fuzzenstein · 04-05-2018 07:04PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

or else you could argue that the issue in that area is that there are too many people speeding.
limits should not be reviewed based on how many people break the law. they should be reviewed based on common sense.

maybe that *would* be one way to stop speeding in ireland. raise *all* limits to 120km/h, and watch as the number of illegally speeding motorists simply evaporates.

Thank you, I needed a good laugh.

Grassey · 04-05-2018 07:48PM

I'm in France for the last week or so, every village/toen/city around me has a 30km zone through the centre and most surrounding streets, 50km towards the fringes, 70 or 90km on main road, 110 on motorway. I've yet to see any motorist whether local or foreign breaking any of those limits. Why is that???

The majority of cycle paths are shared use, and I've yet to see any conflict, people yield, slow down, make space, smile and say hello to other people. I've seen elderly couples and kids using the footpath to cycle and nobody bat's an eyelid. Plenty of contra flow roads for cyclists, and motorists seem to negotiate this without conflict.

Either I'm in some idyllic dream bubble or the attitude prevalent in Ireland is deeply wrong.

dr.fuzzenstein · 04-05-2018 10:49PM

^^^^
The difference is the basic attitude towards rules and regulations.
If a new rule or law is implemented in Germany, the first thing people think is "how will this affect me?". In Ireland it's "how will I get around it".
On continental Europe rules are viewed as a guide that helps people get along. So that everyone knows what they can and cannot do. In general something that makes life more pleasant for everyone.
In Ireland any rule is viewed as a hindrance, an inconvenience and an obstacle that has to be undermined, subverted, ignored or disregarded.
Just look at parking. People deliberately park in Parent and Child spaces because they don't agree with them. People disregard parking regulations on private property and when clamped just cut the thing off.
Parking on double yellows is OK if you're just nipping in for a minute for fags and a lotto ticket and yellow boxes must be blocked, because if you're not moving, that other cnut certainly shouldn't be.
I guess it's a hangover from British occupation, when it was a form of protest to deliberately misunderstand, "forget" or deliberately follow rules in an obstinate fashion.
Difference is, the Brits are gone so the people are just nasty to each other out of force of habit.

magicbastarder · 04-05-2018 10:54PM

it's the 'well, where else am i supposed to park' attitude. as if the answer to the riddle is the responsibility of the person who has cause to complain about the ****ty parking. 'this wasn't a problem until *you* complained'.

guanciale · 05-05-2018 08:02AM

Through my employment I engage somewhat with policy makers across EU jurisdictions. The comments above re laws in say Germany echo my own observations.
My Germans, Dutch and Belgians i meet simply dont see how our common law system makes sense. In those jurisdictions law (in my area) is more prescriptive and better understood.
Maybe common law systems have grown around law being challenged and amended through case law - what if this informa the 'get around the law mentality' that seems prevalent in Ireland.
Slighty OT so apologies.

beauf · 05-05-2018 08:17AM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

^^....I guess it's a hangover from British occupation, when it was a form of protest to deliberately misunderstand, "forget" or deliberately follow rules in an obstinate fashion.
....

We had the Vikings and the Normans before that. I think it goes deeper.

Breaking rules is like breathing in Ireland.

Rechuchote · 05-05-2018 10:28AM

beauf wrote: »

We had the Vikings and the Normans before that. I think it goes deeper.

It started with those goddamned Milesians. The only crowd ever to keep the rules were Tuatha De Danaan.

Pinch Flat · 05-05-2018 10:58AM

Personal responsibly also lacking In Ireland. Everything is everyone else’s fault. People here also focus on the person rather than the wider society. It’s a me me me centric attitude.

The hysteria around the MPDL is interesting to read. Road tax (sic), helmets hi vis and insurance seem to the panacea for road safety in a lot of commenters eyes. Slowing down, driving responsibly, respecting others - not so much.

AndrewJRenko · 06-05-2018 12:38PM

DavyD_83 wrote: »

To me, this will only increase the number of cyclists with cameras going around shouting that the are in the right.
I give it a week after implementation before the first videos appear on YouTube of enraged cyclists being passed (perfectly safely) at less than the min distance on roads that make it impossible to co-exist legally.

There is no road in Ireland that makes it impossible for cyclists and motorists to co-exist legally. There are many roads and parts of roads in Ireland that make it impossible for a motorist to overtake a cyclist safely, but that's a different matter. Usually it involves waiting behind a cyclist for a short period - is that too difficult for you?

Cookie_Monster · 07-05-2018 04:30AM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

There is no road in Ireland that makes it impossible for cyclists and motorists to co-exist legally.

there are plenty, all the motorways for a start, and a lot of tunnels.

Pinch Flat · 07-05-2018 06:57AM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

there are plenty, all the motorways for a start, and a lot of tunnels.

Cyclists can use motorways now? A lot of tunnels are out of bounds as well - Dublin port and lee tunnels spring to mind.

Chiparus · 07-05-2018 09:23AM

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Cyclists can use motorways now? A lot of tunnels are out of bounds as well - Dublin port and lee tunnels spring to mind.

Perhaps you should read the question he was answering again.

tomasrojo · 07-05-2018 12:59PM

The "co-exist legally" claim was in the context of minimum passing distances: all the roads where motorists come across a cyclist and "have to" overtake them with less than 1.5m to spare. So motorways don't come into it because cyclists aren't allowed on them anyway.

(If they were allowed on them, 1.5m passing distance is actually feasible on a lot of them.)

Tenzor07 · 07-05-2018 03:11PM

Not sure if this is the right thread..

I see that 4 Gardai responded to a call from a motorist for the iBike guys cycle lane protection hour in Rathmines...

4...Gards... Jeesus you'd be lucky to see one ticketing cars for parking in cycle lanes..never mind 4!

http://irishcycle.com/2018/05/07/four-garda-attending-protest-keeping-cycle-lane-clear-unnecessary-and-rather-perplexing-says-group/

P_1 · 07-05-2018 04:04PM

Also unsure if the right thread. Sad news from Wicklow this weekend. RIP

https://www.facebook.com/DWMRT/photos/a.397907875589.205518.184831150589/10156085186985590/?type=3

Corca Baiscinn · 07-05-2018 05:24PM

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Not sure if this is the right thread..

I see that 4 Gardai responded to a call from a motorist for the iBike guys cycle lane protection hour in Rathmines...

4...Gards... Jeesus you'd be lucky to see one ticketing cars for parking in cycle lanes..never mind 4!

http://irishcycle.com/2018/05/07/four-garda-attending-protest-keeping-cycle-lane-clear-unnecessary-and-rather-perplexing-says-group/

Sure that sets a great standard re what to expect from Garda Traffic. From now on I Bike or indeed any cyclist who phones the Gardaí to complain that cars in cycle lane are obstructing traffic can expect a minimum of 4 Gardai to zoom up to investigate

Pinch Flat · 07-05-2018 05:37PM

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Not sure if this is the right thread..

I see that 4 Gardai responded to a call from a motorist for the iBike guys cycle lane protection hour in Rathmines...

4...Gards... Jeesus you'd be lucky to see one ticketing cars for parking in cycle lanes..never mind 4!

http://irishcycle.com/2018/05/07/four-garda-attending-protest-keeping-cycle-lane-clear-unnecessary-and-rather-perplexing-says-group/

About 12 - 18 months ago I witnessed a cyclist being struck while overtaking cars parked on the cycle lane opposite Loretto in central Dublin. Cyclist was uninjued if startled and cycled on her way. I took a few pictures and sent these to AGS, recounting what had happened. Followed this up on further days - there was frequently triple parking going (car parking space, cycle lane and the traffic lane outside this). Absolutely nothing done about it - the Garda I was corresponding with, although sympathetic, pretty much admitted there was little they could do - they could show up and ticket people, but being opposite a school it would have caused issues.

Interesting to see then their reaction to a legal protest trying to prevent motorists doing something illegal in the first place.

Safer cycling, we can make a difference /MPDL thread

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