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8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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  • #1982
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ave Sodalis wrote: »
    You haven't seen this be debunked and the list of things wrong with that "stat"? Despite it being gone over and over through out the thread? I'm really struggling to believe that considering you're dipping in and out continuously.

    Mental reservation on their behalf perhaps?


  • #1983
    pleas advice
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭pleas advice


    in Britain 1 in 6 known pregnancies end in miscarriage, 1 in the remaining five end in abortion. they're the stats


  • #1984
    AllForIt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,687 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Meh. We're really only talking a minority of extremists such as Paddy Manning and a few of his friends. Most lgbt people I know are yes voters. Particularly trans people who are also deeply affected by the issue.

    Just out of curiosity, how are trans people deeply affected by this issue more than anyone else?


  • #1985
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    pleas advice wrote: »
    in Britain 1 in 6 known pregnancies end in miscarriage, 1 in the remaining five end in abortion. they're the stats

    Unproven as has been pointed out to you many times

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/fact-check-does-one-in-every-five-pregnancies-in-england-end-in-abortion-1.3480584

    http://www.thejournal.ie/save-the-8th-poster-statistic-abortion-3951738-Apr2018/


  • #1986
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    pleas advice wrote: »
    in Britain 1 in 6 known pregnancies end in miscarriage, 1 in the remaining five end in abortion. they're the stats

    The rate fell in Switzerland when they passed 12weeks :

    Swiss law changed in 2002 to allow abortion on request in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy


    Since then, the abortion rate has gradually fallen and stabilised and Swiss abortion statistics are published every year with little fanfare.



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  • #1987
    pleas advice
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭pleas advice


    correlation is not causation, thats more to do with education and availability of contraception
    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Unproven as has been pointed out to you many times

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/fact-check-does-one-in-every-five-pregnancies-in-england-end-in-abortion-1.3480584
    your first link pretty much backs up exactly what i was saying...


  • #1988
    fritzelly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,113 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly


    Why do the pro-lifers not use Spain as an example of the percentage of abortions - similar proposed laws?
    Of course the UK is easy when it suits you (even politicians use it when it suits)


  • #1989
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    pleas advice wrote: »

    correlation is not causation,


    ah - the mating call of the first year student

    pleas advice wrote: »

    thats more to do with education and availability of contraception


    Any proof of this ?


    You just need them all, without the fanfare


  • #1990
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    gctest50 wrote: »
    ah - the mating call of the first year student





    Any proof of this ?


    You just need them all, without the fanfare

    Can only find this, but nothing to do with one specific country, it's a world wide study which finds developing countries having issues as described.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/health-36266873


  • #1991
    fritzelly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,113 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Can only find this, but nothing to do with one specific country, it's a world wide study which finds developing countries having issues as described.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/health-36266873

    And imagine if the catholic church had their way - 20 billion people on the planet, no food, people in abject poverty etc etc


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  • #1992
    pleas advice
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭pleas advice


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_reservation

    read what i said again, then read your link again,
    (or if you're not referring to me specifically, thats grand)


  • #1993
    fritzelly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,113 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly


    pleas advice wrote: »
    read what i said again, then read your link again,
    (or if you're not referring to me specifically, thats grand)

    You say correlation does not imply causation but spout this nonsense that contraception is a cure all - do you know the meaning of the phrase?


  • #1994
    pleas advice
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭pleas advice


    fritzelly wrote: »
    You say correlation does not imply causation but spout this nonsense that contraception is a cure all - do you know the meaning of the phrase?

    where did i say it was a cure all?
    it was implied that the loosening of restrictions on abortion led to a fall in abortion rates in Switzerland, I said it's not that simple...

    also, I thought Dub was still talking about the abortion stats in Britain when he gave me that wiki link


  • #1995
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    fritzelly wrote: »
    And imagine if the catholic church had their way - 20 billion people on the planet, no food, people in abject poverty etc etc

    I don't think worldwide it's a Catholic thing. While its certainly 100% against it, other sections of other religions are also just as against it.

    While in Ireland a lot of pro life people and I'm talking of those leading the groups would consider their religious beliefs to be a reasoning for their stance, which is something I find hilarious as some of their comments are anything but Christian.
    Going outside of the leadership of course some people will vote no on religious grounds as the rosary march today shows.

    Outside of religion some just have issues with women or anyone different from their norm, or what used to be the norm of society, which it could be argued was coloured by religious belief, but the norms of society change and will continue to do so, some people just can't accept that as was seen with contraception, divorce, SSM.


  • #1996
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    pleas advice wrote: »
    ...,.....

    it was implied that the loosening of restrictions on abortion led to a fall in abortion rates in Switzerland, I said it's not that simple...

    You missed this part :

    gctest50 wrote: »

    You just need them all, without the fanfare



    Abortion + education + contraception


  • #1997
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,142 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    fritzelly wrote: »
    Why do the pro-lifers not use Spain as an example of the percentage of abortions - similar proposed laws?
    Of course the UK is easy when it suits you (even politicians use it when it suits)

    Spain has never been a bogeyman in Irish politics, that's why.


  • #1998
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    pleas advice wrote: »
    in Britain 1 in 6 known pregnancies end in miscarriage, 1 in the remaining five end in abortion. they're the stats

    From the IT link that you said backs up 1 in 5, how does this back you up?

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/fact-check-does-one-in-every-five-pregnancies-in-england-end-in-abortion-1.3480584


    The figures above combined suggest there were 976,865 pregnancies in the United Kingdom. A total of 202,482 of those resulted in the termination of the pregnancy, which equates to 20.73 per cent, which is one in five.

    However, this figure cannot be relied upon as it does not include the number of pregnancies that end in miscarriage. The Office of National Statistics says it does not collate such figures but the NHS says one in six pregnancies in Britain ends in miscarriage.

    There is also the added complication that the number of terminations carried out in the UK in 2016 were in relation to women who had travelled there for an abortion, including 3,265 from Ireland.

    Therefore it is unclear if one in five pregnancies in England (or Britain) results in abortion.


  • #1999
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    pleas advice wrote: »
    read what i said again, then read your link again,
    (or if you're not referring to me specifically, thats grand)

    Wrong link posted earlier, answered above as meant to in my earlier post and have deleted the same as it did not make sense.


  • #2000
    fritzelly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,113 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Spain has never been a bogeyman in Irish politics, that's why.

    Politics? Ermm what has politics got to do with it or rather it doesn't suit to quote other countries stats


  • #2001
    Ozymandius2011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,175 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    Another major problem with the 8th is that it makes no reference to the impact of the pregnancy on the mothers health unless it threatens her or her baby's life. So if a pregnancy threatens her health but not her life, she can't get an abortion, even if the pregnancy has a detrimental affect on her health.


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  • #2002
    fritzelly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,113 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly


    This is what Ireland at the mó and the pro choice want to keep happening

    http://www.thejournal.ie/how-many-irish-travel-to-uk-for-abortions-3986043-May2018/

    Shameful really


  • #2003
    Sober Too
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37 ✭Sober Too


    The repeal with a backdating proviso , word is the latest D4 `chatter` :pac:


  • #2004
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Shadowstrife wrote: »
    Yesers, Yes Voters everywhere, get out there and canvass if you can. Go to your local stall/ events and do flyers/ leaflets.

    Keyboard warrior antics does not accomplish anything, only feeds the trolls.

    Yep. Canvass groups need your help all over the country

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #2005
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It wasnt me123 wrote: »
    You won't be surprised to find I don't agree with either RobertKKs poll results. I can't see that poll result he posted and I bet he won't post a link.

    There might be people not wanting to say which way they will vote on a poll, but don't assume they are all No voters.

    This horrible amendment will be repealed, Ireland will come of age and women will finally have body autonomy.

    Yes side CANNOT be complacent. This is most definitely not won yet.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #2006
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    danmci wrote: »
    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/majority-of-fianna-fail-tds-gather-to-call-on-voters-to-say-no-to-repeal-of-8th-840832.html

    If the yes vote wins does this mean there is no way fine gaels proposal of abortion up to 12 weeks will be passed since they won't have the votes? And if so could the whole amendment itself be blocked??

    No. The constitution will be amended. The proposed law may not go through.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #2007
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It wasnt me123 wrote: »
    I can't disagree with your figures as I can't get up the poll results from google (I'm not very techie).

    Just don't assume that all the undecideds and the rest are No voters. They could all vote yes and it will be 65 to 35. We won't know until the 26th. All we can do is put our opinions forward and see what happens.

    I think it will be Repeal all the way - body autonomy for all

    Your complacent yes thinking is really not helpful. Have you actually knocked on doors? I have. Hundreds. I am not convinced at all of your argment that this is a simple walk in the park and a repeal landslide.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #2008
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Andrew Beef wrote: »
    The argument that “abortion is happening in the UK anyway; make it safer by allowing it to happen here” is utterly ridiculous.

    I want to see the 8th repealed but will be voting No because I don’t want to see unrestricted access to abortion up to 12 weeks. Why? Because it is morally wrong. If perfectly healthy people want to end the lives of perfectly healthy unborn children, let them travel to a jurisdiction that allows it. Making things convenient for them is not our concern; discretionary abortion shouldn’t be easy and we are right to keep it from happening on our doorstep.

    Again this script about healthy babies is coming out.

    What about womens health in this deabte? Why are we ignoring that? Obstetricians have been telling us what that means: It means a pregnant woman with diabetes at risk of going blind. It means a woman with pregnancy induced high blood pressure nearly having a stroke. It means a pregnant woman with epilepsy having increased and recurrent fits. The 8th asks women to bear that risk. Surely women should be allowed to at least have a say when their health is at risk?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #2009
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Andrew Beef wrote: »
    That is a ridiculous argument!

    Just because some women are choosing to commit an illegal and immoral act either via the internet by ordering pills or via a trip to the UK, it is not justification for changing our country into one which readily accepts the unnecessary termination of a viable baby’s life.

    The 8th needs to go but we do not need unrestricted access to abortion up to 12 weeks.

    Do you agree with jailing women upto 14 years for importing abortion pills?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #2010
    gmisk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,383 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Killester1 wrote: »
    A couple of weeks ago, Leo announced that he was giving the YES campaign 50,000e to 100,000e depending how their campaign was going......tax payers money. My taxes. How is that fair and democratic?

    We are still waiting for the link....
    I have looked and can't find a single thing with regards this.

    Some people on the no side are really trying to drag this referendum into the gutter, using half truths and outright lies, disgusting.


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  • #2011
    circular flexing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭circular flexing


    pleas advice wrote: »
    "the amount of abortions is that high, one for every four live births"

    is that wrong?

    It's actually not (even if that figure is true, which it's not). If you look at the referendum through the lens of giving a woman a choice and supporting them no matter what that choice then all arguments about rates of abortion and reasons for abortion fall by the wayside.


This discussion has been closed.
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