8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

Ozymandius2011 · 06-05-2018 08:01PM

The best way to reduce abortions is not the eighth amendment, but rather to make contraception more available - something the Religious Right has historically opposed.

spookwoman · 06-05-2018 08:03PM

Using the words murder and kill, really shows how desperate the no side are. Women have died because of the 8th do we call pro life people murderers and killers?

mohawk · 06-05-2018 08:04PM

joe swanson wrote: »

I have three and also have personal experience of miscarriage. I also have had to attend early pregnancy scans and even at 7/8 have been able to see a human life with a beating human heart. It's a living human being and if not wanting to murder children because their an inconvenience leaves me open to abuse from the vocal politically correct mob then so be it.

Did you want your children? Did you consider how you would provide for those children before they were born? Did you consider if you would be a good parent?
These are not questions I expect you to answer of course. These are questions some of us have asked ourselves when that pregnancy test is positive. When instead of being excited you are upset and terrified.
When faced with an unplanned pregnancy you have to consider if you can or even should become a parent. Not everyone should be parents. It is a tough job. A child should be wanted and loved.

It is not about "inconvenience"

Ken. · 06-05-2018 08:08PM

Mod-Less of that please.

FingerDeKat wrote: »

the whole family are c**ts

mohawk · 06-05-2018 08:09PM

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

The best way to reduce abortions is not the eighth amendment, but rather to make contraception more available - something the Religious Right has historically opposed.

Could you imagine if a government tried to bring in free contraception and mandatory fact/science based sex education in schools. The religious right would have a sh1t attack.

January · 06-05-2018 08:10PM

mohawk wrote: »

Could you imagine if a government tried to bring in free contraception and mandatory fact/science based sex education in schools. The religious right would have a sh1t attack.

They're trying to do just that in the near future.

spookwoman · 06-05-2018 08:11PM

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

The best way to reduce abortions is not the eighth amendment, but rather to make contraception more available - something the Religious Right has historically opposed.

No contraception is 100% effective, not all women can take the pill, some people are allergic to latex. There will always be unwanted pregnancies

Dude89 · 06-05-2018 08:15PM

spookwoman wrote: »

No contraception is 100% effective, not all women can take the pill, some people are allergic to latex. There will always be unwanted pregnancies

There's more than two types of contraception

spookwoman · 06-05-2018 08:18PM

Dude89 wrote: »

There's more than two types of contraception

Even with 2 they can fail.

joe swanson · 06-05-2018 08:18PM

Free contraception and more availability to same along with proper sex education should be government policy rather than introducing abortion on demand

PlaneSpeeking · 06-05-2018 08:19PM

joe swanson wrote: »

Free contraception and more availability to same along with proper sex education should be government policy rather than introducing abortion on demand

Any sign of the answer to my question from earlier Joe?

fritzelly · 06-05-2018 08:23PM

Wouldn't surprise me if there wasn't still a fairly significant cohort of people out there who are still berating the day contraception stopped being illegal in Ireland - my feelings for the stalwart objection to it was the bigger families to keep the church going numbers going up (don't see families of 10+ any more really), call me pessimistic but I also have a feeling this is part of the reasoning behind the pro-life attitude of the catholic church and it is mostly if not almost entirely a Catholic led objection to pro-choice because I can think of no reason to force a woman to dice with death other than religious indoctrination

January · 06-05-2018 08:24PM

joe swanson wrote: »

Free contraception and more availability to same along with proper sex education should be government policy rather than introducing abortion on demand

Nobody demands an abortion. Free contraception and proper sex education needs to be introduced but so does safe legal access to abortion (preferably free also).

mohawk · 06-05-2018 08:31PM

January wrote: »

They're trying to do just that in the near future.

The cynic in me feels the schools rights to preserve their ethos would pose a problem.

January · 06-05-2018 08:32PM

mohawk wrote: »

The cynic in me feels the schools rights to preserve their ethos would pose a problem.

Nah next hurdle is to remove the schools from the Catholic Church completely.

Bredabe · 06-05-2018 08:34PM

Dude89 wrote: »

There's more than two types of contraception

Yes, but most for women are hormone-based, they may not tolerated well or at all.

The alternatives are few, condoms, latex or otherwise, allergy aside, wreck the mood and don't take into account pre and post-ejaculate (rare, but a few recorded cases), femidomes are hard to get here and not easy to work with, coils for women, invasive and can make aggravate menstrual issues(assuming its not a coil with hormones, as I'm discounting them for women here), most clinics will only give these to mature women. Old fashioned diaphragm has a lower success rate and takes a while to use properly and some women have problems with the spermicide.

I have mixed feelings about the "pill" for men-based on the lack of consequences for them if they "forget" and the high possibility of men "forgetting", tubal ligation is hard to get in Ireland, and depends on clinic interpretation of the 8th, and has long-term health consequences for the woman I'm told, vasectomy is easier to get and after a short period is 100%, but its a man decision and can take a while for the man/couple do decide on. Withdrawal has an understandably low success rate and anal isn't recommended for contraception at all.

There are quite a few women who have issues with the limited offering available here, esp if there are likely to have an allergenic reaction to hormones. At best the success rates go from 80-99% in ideal conditions. Assuming there isn't any form of hormone neutralising issue in play.

* Forgot about the billings method, also used to monitor conception and is dependent on agreement and restraint. Many of my friends have been born because of this method.

Dressing gown · 06-05-2018 08:37PM

I’m so cross about the whole thing. There shouldn’t even need to be this endless discussion. There is a massive hangover of shame and desire to be morally superior in this country. I’ve been ignoring my kids trying to help let people understand what is going on here. But it’s not fair on my kids. I’m signing out of this now. If it is not repealed I will be urging my daughters to stay the hell away from this country when they plan on having kids (or even for university if we have the means). It’s like a country frozen in time. Please do the right thing and vote repeal and mind yourselves

Triceratops Ballet · 06-05-2018 08:43PM

joe swanson wrote:

Free contraception and more availability to same along with proper sex education should be government policy rather than introducing abortion on demand

And what about the other implications of the 8th amendment?

crustybla · 06-05-2018 08:49PM

Flying Fox wrote: »

Well I've had No campaigners shout out of a car window at me for wearing a Yes badge, so you can get off your high horse.

If that original quote is aimed at my dad, forgive me for not seeing it. I have the crap filtered out.

Overheal · 06-05-2018 08:53PM

Dude89 wrote: »

There's more than two types of contraception

The United States Center for Disease Control (CDC), the agency of government responsible for finding out empirical, clinical data that relates to healthcare, publishes the following infograph, which is cited from a much more vast array of studies they maintain and update.

https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/unintendedpregnancy/pdf/contraceptive_methods_508.pdf

As everyone can see no one method is either very effective, or cheap, and while you will certainly get better odds with both male and female contraceptive methods you are still at chance of conceiving.

While contraceptive education and promotion should be duly considered it is by no means a straight alternative for the provision of abortion services.

Moiratat · 06-05-2018 09:13PM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Ditto.

The free for all the government are pushing crossed a line for me.

I was ok with adding provisos like; rape/incest & FFA to the existing allowance for a risk to the wellbeing of the mother.

I was ok with that, most of the country is.
However, the free for all being offered does not sit well with me.

I'll be voting 'No'.
So will my wife, as will all my family, as are most people I know.
Outside the metro-Dublin bubble, I can see a silent ground swell against the reason-less killing of the unborn.

Despite the polling, I think the referendum will be narrowly defeated.

Did I reasonlessly kill my child? Would you have brought a child, a baby into my situation?

PlaneSpeeking · 06-05-2018 09:19PM

Moiratat wrote: »

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Ditto.

The free for all the government are pushing crossed a line for me.

I was ok with adding provisos like; rape/incest & FFA to the existing allowance for a risk to the wellbeing of the mother.

I was ok with that, most of the country is.
However, the free for all being offered does not sit well with me.

I'll be voting 'No'.
So will my wife, as will all my family, as are most people I know.
Outside the metro-Dublin bubble, I can see a silent ground swell against the reason-less killing of the unborn.

Despite the polling, I think the referendum will be narrowly defeated.

Did I reasonlessly kill my child? Would you have brought a child, a baby into my situation?

I love his confident "... and so will my wife " really ????

Overheal · 06-05-2018 09:19PM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Ditto.

The free for all the government are pushing crossed a line for me.

I was ok with adding provisos like; rape/incest & FFA to the existing allowance for a risk to the wellbeing of the mother.

I was ok with that, most of the country is.
However, the free for all being offered does not sit well with me.

I'll be voting 'No'.
So will my wife, as will all my family, as are most people I know.
Outside the metro-Dublin bubble, I can see a silent ground swell against the reason-less killing of the unborn.

Despite the polling, I think the referendum will be narrowly defeated.

Is my understanding correct and that 'unrestricted' period would only be 12 weeks? I don't see what is wrong with that. The average length of time is 6 weeks for a woman to even confirm that she is indeed pregnant. Then you have some time to consider your choices, consult experts, and schedule procedures.

That said, I'm reminded that the US Constitution passed without a Bill of Rights, and the Founders knew this was an issue (it's in the federalist papers) but the deal to get the Constitution ratified was to get that done first, then deliberate the Bill of Rights. You can repeal the 8th, and then revisit the period of alleviated restrictions later, should this become some sort of tangible issue.

amcalester · 06-05-2018 09:22PM

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

I love his confident "... and so will my wife " really ????

It sounds a bit “If she knows what’s good for her.”

06-05-2018 09:23PM

January wrote: »

Yeah there's been a few people on the pro-choice side banned, it's not one sided.

This story on In Her Shoes is heartbreaking. This is why we need 12 weeks without reason. It's not unrestricted. It's unrestricted as to reason. This is why we need it. For these women, yes they are the minority but there is no other way. We cannot have Rape Committees.

Honestly I can't understand how people can read that story and still vote no. I'm actually starting to get really angry with no voters.

Usually I'm like "everyone has their opinion" but after reading so many heartbreaking accounts of how people have been affected by the 8th amendment "pro life" people are really starting to fill me with rage.

pleas advice · 06-05-2018 09:24PM

amcalester wrote: »

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

I love his confident "... and so will my wife " really ????

It sounds a bit “If she knows what’s good for her.”

do you think there are no pro-life women, or if there are they are brainwashed or voting that way under threath of violence from their husbands?
really?

Overheal · 06-05-2018 09:25PM

pleas advice wrote: »

do you think there are no pro-life women, or if there are they are brainwashed or voting that way under threath of violence from their husbands?
really?

It's more that the husband was speaking for the wife. Of course there are many Pro-Birth women out there, I've spoken with plenty.

PlaneSpeeking · 06-05-2018 09:27PM

pleas advice wrote: »

amcalester wrote: »

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

I love his confident "... and so will my wife " really ????

It sounds a bit “If she knows what’s good for her.”

do you think there are no pro-life women, or if there are they are brainwashed or voting that way under threath of violence from their husbands?
really?

No I think there are a fair few men who think they decide how the family will vote.

Spoiler Alert- the ballot is secret.

Mrsmum · 06-05-2018 09:28PM

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

I love his confident "... and so will my wife " really ????

Met a neighbour at a bbq today. He said he tells all the Yes crowd he's voting yes and all the No crowd he's voting no but what he'll do in the ballot booth is his own business. I'd say he's not the only one doing that.

pleas advice · 06-05-2018 09:28PM

It's more that the husband was speaking for the wife.

i've seen similar from plenty of the pro-choice side, 'I'm voting this way, and so is my husband/ mother / grandad/ ...'

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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