8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

iguana · 06-05-2018 12:46PM

joe swanson wrote: »

I will be voting no as I don't agree with unrestricted abortion up till 12 weeks. I agree with it if it is a necessary procedure ie fatal faetal abnormality etc . However the proposed followup legislation has convinced me to vote no.

It costs €80 to purchase the abortion pill securely. We already have unrestricted abortion in the first trimester. You are willing to put pretending that we don't ahead of ensuring that bereaved women are able to get necessary medical treatment. You've decided that your desire to pretend something that is blatant nonsense is worth putting the lives of women at risk? I'm not seeing anyone being shouted down and abused, just having the reality of their actions being pointed out to them. And they don't like it because to be very honest, that reality is disgusting and horrific.

Ozymandius2011 · 06-05-2018 12:47PM

I will not be voting against. So I will probably vote yes or abstain. Reasons for possible abstention are that I am uncomfortable with the maximalist solution the government is advocating. Reasons I may vote yes are that the status quo will potentially lead to more Ann Lovetts and Savita Hallapanavars. But I won't vote no as I suspect our politicians will then revert to the status-quo-ante of kicking the can down the road for the next generation to deal with.

Also I have no real objection to the text of the proposed amendment, which merely enables the Oireachtas to regulate abortion. I have reservations about their planned legislation afterwards with respect to the 12 weeks and in some cases 24 weeks. I recently saw a story about a 24 week old who had been born in the UK and seemed like a normal baby to me except you could see its blood vessels.

mohawk · 06-05-2018 12:47PM

spookwoman wrote: »

Seeing people bring up the unrestricted 12 weeks abortion excuse. So what if someone has an abortion for their own person reason within those weeks.
We don't know the reasons behind it, it could be no money, is it right to force someone to have a child they cannot afford and bring that child up in poverty?
Is it right to force someone to have a child because when they don't have the support? We don't know if its a failed relationship, no family etc. We cannot expect family to be there all the time to look after someone else kids, they have their own lives.
Is it right to force someone who is not ready and does not want to have a child? How many people out there would want to be forced into raising a child against their will?
Is it right to force someone to have a child against their will full stop! No contraception is 100%, it's next to impossible to get your tubes tied.
You can talk about adoption but that woman is still forced to carry and deliver against their will. Pregnancy changes people, it changes their bodies it can change their health and it can endanger it.
I and no one else can know what that person is going through and the only person who can make the decision to have an abortion is the woman herself. It should be her choice and no ones elses.

Wish I could thank this again.

My mother became a single parent to me at 21. She couldn't afford me and we were always broke. She hated being a mother and resented me. Most people wouldn't blame the child but those who felt trapped into parenthood might. Believe me it's pretty ****ty being brought up by someone who doesn't want or love you.

No one wants abortion. The ideal number is zero but we don't live in an ideal world.

BabysCoffee · 06-05-2018 12:48PM

joe swanson wrote: »

I find the ongoing "debate" quite saddening in that if you don't agree with the politically correct viewpoint then you get shouted down and abused.

I will be voting no as I don't agree with unrestricted abortion up till 12 weeks. I agree with it if it is a necessary procedure ie fatal faetal abnormality etc . However the proposed followup legislation has convinced me to vote no.

As a relatively young man (and not religious either )this is not a fashionable viewpoint so I will and do get shouted down and abused for expressing this. I think the vote will be closer than people expect as many people are reluctant to express their views due to being shouted down .

Of course it is your perogative to vote as you choose.

Unfortunately for pro-choicers by voting no you remove the right to choose from women in many different positions. Luckily however, they can still travel to England if they have the resources.

But I believe the above is not good enough. Irish Women deserve bodily autonomy and should not have to live by your beliefs.

Oh and another thing, a few other anti-choicers have claimed to be shouted down when others disagreed with their position. Please don't insult our intelligence by continuing with this malarkey.

kylith · 06-05-2018 12:49PM

joe swanson wrote: »

No but killing a child just because you want to up until 12 weeks which is what will be legislated for is what will happen. A correctly worded referendum with guarantees of limited followup legislation which could not be liberalised without another referendum is the only way I would vote yes

I don’t believe that it is a child. I don’t believe that abortion is morally wrong.

Why should your opinion trump mine?

Guy:Incognito · 06-05-2018 12:50PM

AnneFrank wrote: »

There was a mod warning on quoting from different threads, as it was a 'dickish' thing to do.

And it might expose hypocrisy...............

Guy:Incognito · 06-05-2018 12:52PM

Andrew Beef wrote: »

The Rape Committee concept is novel and extreme some might say, but what’s people’s alternative?

Let people decide what they want with their own medical issues.

PlaneSpeeking · 06-05-2018 12:53PM

And not to become a nuisance and repeat myself- the referendum isn't just about abortion.

It's about denial of access to healthcare.

Triceratops Ballet · 06-05-2018 12:53PM

joe swanson wrote:

I will be voting no as I don't agree with unrestricted abortion up till 12 weeks. I agree with it if it is a necessary procedure ie fatal faetal abnormality etc . However the proposed followup legislation has convinced me to vote no.

Outside of the context of abortion do you understand the implications of the 8th amendment for women's healthcare in Ireland?

joe swanson wrote:

As a relatively young man (and not religious either )this is not a fashionable viewpoint so I will and do get shouted down and abused for expressing this. I think the vote will be closer than people expect as many people are reluctant to express their views due to being shouted down .

I think everyone know how close this will be, I don't believe anyone is under the illusion that this is an easy fight. If it fails I will honestly be devastated I won't be hanging up my repeal gear though I won't accept a no vote, the march for choice and other protests will continue.

joe40 · 06-05-2018 12:54PM

joe swanson wrote: »

Shadowstrife wrote: »

I will not shout you down sir, but answer this. If you, as you said, agree with the below:

'I agree with it if it is a necessary procedure ie fatal faetal abnormality etc .'

Then how will change happen? By magic?

Removing the 8th is to remove the barrier to change. The only way we can support women in these troubled pregnancies is to vote Yes.

Change CANNOT happen otherwise.

No but killing a child just because you want to up until 12 weeks which is what will be legislated for is what will happen. A correctly worded referendum with guarantees of limited followup legislation which could not be liberalised without another referendum is the only way I would vote yes

The only laws which cannot be changed without a referendum are the laws in the constitution.
The 8th amendment was introduced in 1983. The 12th,13th and 14th amendments were added to make it practical.
You are now suggesting yet another amendment to this article. That is the only way you can have constitutionally binding laws.
Seriously another amendment to flawed legislation.
It just needs to be scrapped, and we can stop been a laughing stock in the developed world.
Just do a quick search of countries where abortion is banned just to see the sort of esteemed company we are keeping.

Sofiztikated · 06-05-2018 12:54PM

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

I will not be voting against. So I will probably vote yes or abstain. Reasons for possible abstention are that I am uncomfortable with the maximalist solution the government is advocating. Reasons I may vote yes are that the status quo will potentially lead to more Ann Lovetts and Savita Hallapanavars. But I won't vote no as I suspect our politicians will then revert to the status-quo-ante of kicking the can down the road for the next generation to deal with.

Also I have no real objection to the text of the proposed amendment, which merely enables the Oireachtas to regulate abortion. I have reservations about their planned legislation afterwards with respect to the 12 weeks and in some cases 24 weeks. I recently saw a story about a 24 week old who had been born in the UK and seemed like a normal baby to me except you could see its blood vessels.

Should repeal win, these miracle babies will still happen, noone is advocating mandatory abortions.

Guy:Incognito · 06-05-2018 12:56PM

Andrew Beef wrote: »

.

My position is pretty mainstream.

Among peop,e who don't have to deal with certain hardships in life.

Much like the (I'm sure not isolated case) politician in America who was vehemently pro life I public but tried to send his mistress to an abortion clinic on the qt.

Easy to have a superior attitude when you don't have to deal with the flip side.

Triceratops Ballet · 06-05-2018 01:00PM

joe swanson wrote:

No but killing a child just because you want to up until 12 weeks which is what will be legislated for is what will happen. A correctly worded referendum with guarantees of limited followup legislation which could not be liberalised without another referendum is the only way I would vote yes

What would you propose for a woman who found herself pregnant and didn't want to be? Keeping in mind that domestic adoption in Ireland is almost non existent

Ave Sodalis · 06-05-2018 01:00PM

Ozymandius2011 wrote:

Also I have no real objection to the text of the proposed amendment, which merely enables the Oireachtas to regulate abortion. I have reservations about their planned legislation afterwards with respect to the 12 weeks and in some cases 24 weeks. I recently saw a story about a 24 week old who had been born in the UK and seemed like a normal baby to me except you could see its blood vessels.

I'm not sure if this helps with your objection or not, but the 24 weeks will be very rare, going by stats in countries with similar cultures. With FFA, it's clear why there should be an option for abortion. With regard mental health, we already allow for abortion (with no defined time limit) on the ground of suicidal intention. The referendum will make this more restricted, but otherwise change very little.

PhoenixParker · 06-05-2018 01:01PM

joe swanson wrote: »

No but killing a child just because you want to up until 12 weeks which is what will be legislated for is what will happen. A correctly worded referendum with guarantees of limited followup legislation which could not be liberalised without another referendum is the only way I would vote yes

Genuine question?

Why do you think of a <12 week pregnancy as a child?
What's your personal experience of pregnancy & children that brings you to that conclusion?

If you haven't already, (or for those reading along) try talking to the women in your life about it.

If you talked to me, I'd tell you that I have one child and I had a miscarriage at 11 weeks.

The miscarriage was deeply upsetting. It was a planned pregnancy, a wanted baby. . . I cried, I grieved, it took me months to recover.

Months, not years, not decades.
I know people who've lost children, they never recover.
Decades later it still affects them daily.

An 11 week foetus is not a child.

Guy:Incognito · 06-05-2018 01:02PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

. Any child has potential to be President of Ireland, .

And also, much more statistically likely, a rapist, murderer or other criminal. Seeing as we are playing what it's.

FunLover18 · 06-05-2018 01:03PM

joe swanson wrote: »

Shadowstrife wrote: »

No but killing a child just because you want to up until 12 weeks which is what will be legislated for is what will happen. A correctly worded referendum with guarantees of limited followup legislation which could not be liberalised without another referendum is the only way I would vote yes

You can't put guarantees re legislation into a referendum. Referendums are for changing the constitution only, they do not deal with legislation. Legislation is dealt with by the Daily, it would be an absolute nightmare if we had to have a national vote for every piece of legislation.

Sofiztikated · 06-05-2018 01:27PM

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Genuine question?

Why do you think of a <12 week pregnancy as a child?
What's your personal experience of pregnancy & children that brings you to that conclusion?

If you haven't already, (or for those reading along) try talking to the women in your life about it.

If you talked to me, I'd tell you that I have one child and I had a miscarriage at 11 weeks.

The miscarriage was deeply upsetting. It was a planned pregnancy, a wanted baby. . . I cried, I grieved, it took me months to recover.

Months, not years, not decades.
I know people who've lost children, they never recover.
Decades later it still affects them daily.

An 11 week foetus is not a child.

My wife lost a pregnancy at 12 weeks.

We're definitely not parents. I was going to be a father, but wasn't defacto a Daddy immediately.

But if it meant harm to my wife, the decision to abort should be that, our decision.

threescompany · 06-05-2018 01:28PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

This is getting ridiculous.

I'm not saying anything about the moderation of this thread, but rather the arguments being made.

I've asked time and time again, could a retain proponent give me 1, just 1, reasonable argument for retaining the 8th.

No committee suggestions.
No hysterectomies.

If I vote to retain it, how do we, as a nation and a people, benefit?

I feel ireland willbenefit because we won’t have unrestricted abortion . I think unrestricted abortion is wrong and by getting rid of the 8th, we are letting down our country.
That is my humble opinion. Of course, FFA, rape , incest & occasional circumstances require abortion but absolutely not on demand. I would repeal the 8th if there was no unrestricted abortion but I won’t now. Look at other countries in Europe.....
Are the Uk benefiting from 1 out 5 pregnancies resulting in abortion?
Look at other reasons for abortion , irresponsible decision making on contraception, diagnoses of Down’s syndrome, cleft lip etc. if this is what abortion on demand represents then I’m out.

SusieBlue · 06-05-2018 01:38PM

threescompany wrote: »

I feel ireland willbenefit because we won’t have unrestricted abortion . I think unrestricted abortion is wrong and by getting rid of the 8th, we are letting down our country.
That is my humble opinion. Of course, FFA, rape , incest & occasional circumstances require abortion but absolutely not on demand. I would repeal the 8th if there was no unrestricted abortion but I won’t now. Look at other countries in Europe.....
Are the Uk benefiting from 1 out 5 pregnancies resulting in abortion?
Look at other reasons for abortion , irresponsible decision making on contraception, diagnoses of Down’s syndrome, cleft lip etc. if this is what abortion on demand represents then I’m out.

Unrestricted abortion has always happened in Ireland. It will continue to happen if the 8th is retained. It will just remain unregulated and unsupervised, putting the women who procure them in dangerous situations.
We have moved on from the days of coat hangers and scalding baths, now we order pills online and take them in secret at home, praying nothing will go wrong.

The 1 in 5 statistic has been debunked several times over.

Down’s syndrome cannot be diagnosed at 12 weeks and isn’t considered a FFA so those abortions won’t happen, unless they go to the UK for a termination as they can now.

I’ve also genuinely never heard of anyone aborting for something as minor and trivial as a cleft lip - are you worried because you are close to women who you feel might abort for such a ridiculous reason?

As for ‘irresponsible decision making with contraception’ - contraception fails all the time. It isn’t fool proof.
And I don’t think weaponizing precious children into punishments for their parents who should have been more careful is the basis of a stable, loving childhood.
It is most certainly not in the child’s best interests to be born to an unwilling woman who does not want him, as some sort of warped punishment for not taking a pill on time.

If you can’t even trust her to take a pill, why are you trusting her with a child?

Unrestricted abortion is here already. It will continue to be, regardless of the outcome of the referendum.
The current situation puts further distress and suffering into vulnerable women. That is unacceptable. We are not looking after our citizens.

There is absolutely NO benefit to retaining the 8th. It only serves to cause dangerous situations. A situation a woman you love, be it a daughter, wife, or sister, might find herself in some day.

Guy:Incognito · 06-05-2018 01:39PM

threescompany wrote: »

Are the Uk benefiting from 1 out 5 pregnancies resulting in abortion?
ut.

What are the benefits to forcing people to have children they don't want?

pleas advice · 06-05-2018 01:40PM

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

With regard mental health, we already allow for abortion (with no defined time limit) on the ground of suicidal intention. The referendum will make this more restricted, but otherwise change very little.

we allow termination of pregnancy in cases where the mother is suicidal, this means abortion before viability, and delivery of the fetus/baby when it has reached viability.

the referendum will not make this more restricted, the proposed legislation will allow termination, up to viability, where there is a risk of serious harm to the mothers health, including mental health. No-one has clarified what might or would constitute 'serious harm to the mental health' of the woman, but whatever it is, it definitely won't be a restriction on what we have now

amcalester · 06-05-2018 01:40PM

threescompany wrote: »

I feel ireland willbenefit because we won’t have unrestricted abortion . I think unrestricted abortion is wrong and by getting rid of the 8th, we are letting down our country.
That is my humble opinion. Of course, FFA, rape , incest & occasional circumstances require abortion but absolutely not on demand. I would repeal the 8th if there was no unrestricted abortion but I won’t now. Look at other countries in Europe.....
Are the Uk benefiting from 1 out 5 pregnancies resulting in abortion?
Look at other reasons for abortion , irresponsible decision making on contraception, diagnoses of Down’s syndrome, cleft lip etc. if this is what abortion on demand represents then I’m out.

We’re already letting Ireland down by denying healthcare to a significant proportion of the population.

pleas advice · 06-05-2018 01:48PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

I’ve also genuinely never heard of anyone aborting for something as minor and trivial as a cleft lip - are you worried because you are close to women who you feel might abort for such a ridiculous reason?

her body her choice? trust women?

Triceratops Ballet · 06-05-2018 01:50PM

pleas advice wrote:

her body her choice? trust women?

Now you've got it!

BabysCoffee · 06-05-2018 01:52PM

threescompany wrote: »

I feel ireland willbenefit because we won’t have unrestricted abortion . I think unrestricted abortion is wrong and by getting rid of the 8th, we are letting down our country.
That is my humble opinion. Of course, FFA, rape , incest & occasional circumstances require abortion but absolutely not on demand. I would repeal the 8th if there was no unrestricted abortion but I won’t now. Look at other countries in Europe.....
Are the Uk benefiting from 1 out 5 pregnancies resulting in abortion?
Look at other reasons for abortion , irresponsible decision making on contraception, diagnoses of Down’s syndrome, cleft lip etc. if this is what abortion on demand represents then I’m out.

How do you think it benefits Ireland to force women to have abortions in the UK?

How does it benefit Ireland to force Irish women to buy abortion pills online and take them alone without the security of their doctor?

Tell Ann Lovetts parents and Savita Halapanavar's family what you said above. I don't think they'd see much compassion in your words.

Shame on Ireland if we do not repeal the 8th.

However those who wish to control women and not give us bodily autonomy will be satisfied - but don't think for one minute you are saving a single life. Anti-choicers will have blood on their hands. Shame on them.

SusieBlue · 06-05-2018 01:52PM

pleas advice wrote: »

her body her choice? trust women?

You’re finally getting it, well done!

pleas advice · 06-05-2018 01:52PM

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

Now you've got it!

even for ridiculous reasons?

Pherekydes · 06-05-2018 01:53PM

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

I will not be voting against. So I will probably vote yes or abstain.

Please do not abstain. An abstention is a de facto vote for the status quo.

BabysCoffee · 06-05-2018 01:54PM

pleas advice wrote: »

her body her choice? trust women?

Yes!

Think of all the women you know.

Would your mother, daughter, sister, friend have an abortion because a cleft lip/down syndrome diagnosis?

Trust women

Talk to the women in your life. Stop trying to control them.

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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