8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

RobertKK · 04-05-2018 2:14pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Nothing to do with the referendum, Robert.
Back to the divide and deflect are we?

Really?

They do a lot of stuff that people never voted for. Simon Harris at the last election told his voters to vote for him as he is pro-life and will defend the lives of the unborn, but then Leo did too...Is this how one builds trust?

PlaneSpeeking · 04-05-2018 2:14pm

Thirdfox wrote: »

So would you wish to retract your original statement that the Act carries a 14 year sentence? What sort of judge/case would result in a court opting to use its discretion to impose a maximum term penalty of 14 years? I would have to guess it would be some sort of grotesque "illegal abortions for fun/blackmail etc." that pro-choice proponents would rightly castigate as being fanciful enough to be out of touch with reality - the bogey/strawman case of a spiteful woman doing her 10th abortion because she just couldn't be bothered to take the pill instead (and actually - even in that case I couldn't see a judge imposing a 14 year term - maybe this strawman ogre needs to be doing all her abortions in the 9th month for fun or something).

Equally the proposal to change the potential penalty to a fine of 1 euro logically fails as it is no deterrence at all to illegal abortions and to when more serious cases of illegal abortions (though again not to the hyperbolic out of this world scenario I painted above) occurs.

I thought you said you were lawyer ?

There is a VAST difference between what is on the statute books as a maximum sentence and what a judge "will" give.

Otherwise we wouldn't have killers out in six years would we ?

PlaneSpeeking · 04-05-2018 2:16pm

RobertKK wrote: »

Really?

People's views mature and change.

In my teens and 20s I'd be a Labour voter (living in UK at the time). A decade or so of Sinn Fein.

Now I'm a Fine Gael voter in my late 40s.

PlaneSpeeking · 04-05-2018 2:17pm

Also Leo Varadkar once said he did not support equal marriage.

Clearly that wasn't what he really felt.

RobertKK · 04-05-2018 2:17pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Robert

We trust politicians from the moment we are born until the day we die to legislate for every single aspect of our lives so tell me what's so different about this?

This referendum is on the piece of law that provides protection for unborn lives, there are laws to protect all other lives.
That is why this is different a Yes vote will remove the only protection in Irish law for unborn lives - as stated by the Supreme Court recently.

ELM327 · 04-05-2018 2:17pm

RobertKK wrote: »

Really?

With one line buried in irrelevant drivel it's difficult to keep up.
People can change their mind.
Since you love tangential posts:

3 months before the SSM referendum I was very much a No voter and proud of it. Because, you know, ewww the gays and all that.
But then I realised who I was agreeing with (bible bashers, the old, and the iona institute) and who I was arguing with (people who wanted the same rights as everyone else) and I realised, regardless of my feelings towards gay people, what business is their bedroom or relationship, to me!

And its the same group of bible bashers, the old, and Iona institute that are hardline no here too.

Ireland 10 years ago is very different to the Ireland nowadays.

Sofiztikated · 04-05-2018 2:20pm

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Also Leo Varadkar once said he did not support equal marriage.

Clearly that wasn't what he really felt.

Or that someone is open to listening to an argument.

I'm still waiting on someone to tell me how keeping the 8th is of benefit.

PlaneSpeeking · 04-05-2018 2:20pm

ELM327 wrote: »

With one line buried in irrelevant drivel it's difficult to keep up.
People can change their mind.
Since you love tangential posts:

3 months before the SSM referendum I was very much a No voter and proud of it. Because, you know, ewww the gays and all that.
But then I realised who I was agreeing with (bible bashers, the old, and the iona institute) and who I was arguing with (people who wanted the same rights as everyone else) and I realised, regardless of my feelings towards gay people, what business is their bedroom or relationship, to me!

And its the same group of bible bashers, the old, and Iona institute that are hardline no here too.

Ireland 10 years ago is very different to the Ireland nowadays.

Slightly away from the point - but my dad (77 at time of equal marriage ref) would be no fan of gay scenes on TV, would switch them off.

He voted Yes from day one, in his words "What business is it of mine what other people do that doesn't affect me ?"

Wise words for some on the No side I feel.

RobertKK · 04-05-2018 2:21pm

ELM327 wrote: »

With one line buried in irrelevant drivel it's difficult to keep up.
People can change their mind.
Since you love tangential posts:

3 months before the SSM referendum I was very much a No voter and proud of it. Because, you know, ewww the gays and all that.
But then I realised who I was agreeing with (bible bashers, the old, and the iona institute) and who I was arguing with (people who wanted the same rights as everyone else) and I realised, regardless of my feelings towards gay people, what business is their bedroom or relationship, to me!

And its the same group of bible bashers, the old, and Iona institute that are hardline no here too.

Ireland 10 years ago is very different to the Ireland nowadays.

Still to say nothing to do with the referendum was wrong to claim.

People said these people represent them, but how can one say someone represents them when they were elected on one side of the argument and with no mandate from the people who elected them they do the opposite.

PlaneSpeeking · 04-05-2018 2:22pm

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Or that someone is open to listening to an argument.

I'm still waiting on someone to tell me how keeping the 8th is of benefit.

Sorry, I meant that - I know a few gay couples who were very opposed to marriage, yet one couple were married last year, people evolve.

Can't help you with keeping the 8th, it has no benefit that I can see.

Zubeneschamali · 04-05-2018 2:23pm

Thirdfox wrote: »

Equally the proposal to change the potential penalty to a fine of 1 euro logically fails as it is no deterrence at all to illegal abortions and to when more serious cases of illegal abortions (though again not to the hyperbolic out of this world scenario I painted above) occurs.

So you are saying that the State has a duty to protect the right to life of the unborn with some sort of sentence along the lines of the one in the POLDPA?

Yes, that is correct.

You were wrong when you said that it is like the old laws on suicide, in that we cannot decriminalize it while the 8th is on the books, and if you don't want teens using abortion pills facing jail time, you need to vote Yes.

Thirdfox · 04-05-2018 2:25pm

bubblypop wrote: »

Quick question, why don't you support Irish women to have terminations in their own country?
We know Irish women are having abortions in other countries. & they are constitutionally protected in doing so.
So, why, stop them having them here?

Quick answer - I do - I support the current, and a limited expansion of the current legal abortion regime in Ireland.

If you are asking why we don't adopt other countries laws as our own then I have laid out my reasons numerous times already.

It is whataboutery in my eyes to raise the fact that something is legal elsewhere to be solely the determination of if something is to be legal in Ireland - I have said time and again I cannot (well technically Irish citizens do get some extra voting rights in the UK but presumably it is residency based) change the laws of other countries (or when they hold referendums I need not apply) but for my own country I can.

If we take a principle of "if Irish people can get it elsewhere that is solely a good reason to allow it here" then should we allow prostitution (yes, and tax it too I say) , cannabis use (I actually think we should but that's beside the point), euthanasia or any multitude of laws where other countries' laws differe to our own.

An Irish person can use a legal brothel in Germany so why don't we support it here in Ireland?

An Irish person can go to a Dutch coffee shop (though that is being increasingly restricted from what little I know of drug laws in Amsterdam) so why can't we have Irish coffee shops?

An Irish person can hop on a plane to Switzerland to visit dignitas so we should just change our laws on assisted suicide then (again I think we should, but not due to the sole reason of it being easily accessible elsewhere).

Something being available elsewhere is not a reason (by itself) for it to be available here. Examine everything on its own merits.

PlaneSpeeking · 04-05-2018 2:27pm

Thirdfox wrote: »

Quick answer - I do - I support the current, and a limited expansion of the current legal abortion regime in Ireland.

If you are asking why we don't adopt other countries laws as our own then I have laid out my reasons numerous times already.

It is whataboutery in my eyes to raise the fact that something is legal elsewhere to be solely the determination of if something is to be legal in Ireland - I have said time and again I cannot (well technically Irish citizens do get some extra voting rights in the UK but presumably it is residency based) change the laws of other countries (or when they hold referendums I need not apply) but for my own country I can.

If we take a principle of "if Irish people can get it elsewhere that is solely a good reason to allow it here" then should we allow prostitution (yes, and tax it too I say) , cannabis use (I actually think we should but that's beside the point), euthanasia or any multitude of laws where other countries' laws differe to our own.

An Irish person can use a legal brothel in Germany so why don't we support it here in Ireland?

An Irish person can go to a Dutch coffee shop (though that is being increasingly restricted from what little I know of drug laws in Amsterdam) so why can't we have Irish coffee shops?

An Irish person can hop on a plane to Switzerland to visit dignitas so we should just change our laws on assisted suicide then (again I think we should, but not due to the sole reason of it being easily accessible elsewhere).

Something being available elsewhere is not a reason (by itself) for it to be available here. Examine everything on its own merits.

Can I ask how you feel about the fact that the 8th currently means I cannot continue with life changing medication if I become pregnant and consign me to months of pain.

Is that not against my human rights ?

Zubeneschamali · 04-05-2018 2:27pm

RobertKK wrote: »

That is why this is different a Yes vote will remove the only protection in Irish law for unborn lives - as stated by the Supreme Court recently.

Wrong again.

It will remove the only right the unborn have in the Constitution. It will not delete or even change the existing law, the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act.

We expect the Government to replace that act, and they have outlined what they will replace it with, and guess what? It includes some protection (in Irish law!) for the unborn.

04-05-2018 2:28pm

RobertKK wrote: »

This referendum is on the piece of law that provides protection for unborn lives, there are laws to protect all other lives.
That is why this is different a Yes vote will remove the only protection in Irish law for unborn lives - as stated by the Supreme Court recently.

Ah but the same constitution defends the rights of women to information about abortion, & gives them the right to travel & have abortions.
So, really what protection is there?

Zubeneschamali · 04-05-2018 2:29pm

Thirdfox wrote: »

Quick answer - I do - I support the current, and a limited expansion of the current legal abortion regime in Ireland.

Good to have you on the Yes train.

Triceratops Ballet · 04-05-2018 2:31pm

Thirdfox wrote: »

Again - I must correct you in saying abortion is not illegal in Ireland. In fact the FAQs at the start of this thread point out a number of abortions take place legally in Ireland every year.

So your initial premise is already flawed - I support the current legal abortion regime in Ireland - and on thinking believe an extension should be possible for certain FFA cases (which again ties into my stance on life and its meaning). However the current referendum is not asking if FFA cases should be included into the 8th, but rather the repeal in its entirety and the proposed legislation will bring in abortion on demand which I do not support - I can only vote on what is presented to me and if the choice is between a flawed 8th or nothing at all I will choose to retain.

If the question changed to extending abortion to specific FFA cases then I would most likely be happy to vote yes on the matter.

then I'll correct my statement, though you know full well what I mean, abortion in Ireland is illegal for women who are not dying, or suicidal.

All this twaddle and yet no comment at all on the fact that I don't give a sh1t about the legislation. For me the repeal of the 8th amendment is a rights issue, specifically rights I don't have as a woman that you do as a man. If you think that's fair and just then fine, but at least come out and say it, I want to know what you think about the 8th amendment, denying women the right to informed consent re treatment and medical procedures during pregnancy, I want to know why you think it's ok that pregnant women are excluded from the HSE policy on consent. That is a consequence of the 8th amendment and you're ignoring it. You can dial back the condescension while you're at it

Martina1991 · 04-05-2018 2:32pm

Thirdfox wrote: »

1. I'm sure most wouldn't unless they feel like they have no other option - who wants to order destructive drugs over the internet?)
I feel the 8th provides for these cases that women who are in such tragic/desperate situations where they are contemplating self-harm are given legal abortions in Ireland.

2. I feel that the 8th is a good/adequate compromise between the life of the unborn, the mother, her bodily autonomy and the father.

3. If we take away the right to life (or from someone else's perspective ascribe the right to life) to a human being - there must be a good reason for doing so.

1. No woman grows up planning to have an abortion. It is the last resort. Ireland has had 35 years to put support in place for women in crisis and they haven't done it, financial or otherwise.

What about the women who do not want to be pregnant? You can't force pregnancy and childbirth on someone against their will. You cant throw money at someone as some sort of incentive or bribe.

The 8th provides nothing but a block to adequate care. It is an obstacle. Women's hands are tied and must go abroad or buy illegal pills in secrecy and shame.

2. The 8th is not a compromise for anyone.
Pro-choice people put the woman first and the (undeveloped potential child) second. I think the living woman should have the final say over what happens to her body and her life.

Anti-choice people only look at the uterus. They shout and scream for the foetus inside and couldn't give a damn what happens to it afterwards. Death, disabilty, put into care, born to unfit parents- who cares, it's the tax payers problem now.

3. You say for an abortion to occur there must be a good reason for it.
What do you think are good reasons?
Are your reasons based on your moral compass?
A good reason to me might not be an acceptable reason for you.
But who's reason matters? The pregnant woman.

Triceratops Ballet · 04-05-2018 2:32pm

bubblypop wrote: »

Quick question, why don't you support Irish women to have terminations in their own country?
We know Irish women are having abortions in other countries. & they are constitutionally protected in doing so.
So, why, stop them having them here?

Quick answer:
1)Power
2)Control

SusieBlue · 04-05-2018 2:33pm

People are very naive if they think that a winning No vote will stop unrestricted Irish abortions from happening.
They have always happened and they will continue to happen regardless of the outcome of the referendum.
They'll just happen at a later gestation, while women get the funds together to go abroad.

This isn't going to go away. We can deny it and restrict it but all it means is that unregulated and unsupervised abortions will continue to happen.
The 12 women each will still travel.

Some people seem to think they are some sort of noble protector of the unborn - they aren't. These abortions happen and will continue to happen. It will just cause more distress and suffering to the living breathing woman having the crisis.

JupiterKid · 04-05-2018 2:34pm

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Also Leo Varadkar once said he did not support equal marriage.

Clearly that wasn't what he really felt.

Leo Varadkar would say anything to garner support and votes. He only came out himself when he felt the tide was turning in favor of same-sex marriage, pretty late in the day. Better late than never I suppose but I can’t help but think it was a calculated political act and as a gay man myself I find his neo-Thatcherite neo-liberal economic laissez faire political views repugnant. For FG and FF, they see Ireland as an economy and not a society and that’s IMO at the root of a lot of the problems with this country, housing being the most urgent one at the moment.

Hell, I might even start a thread on this...

Always been a Labour voter myself and will remain so for the foreseeable future (although I do like the Social Democrats as well). FG and FF are two sides of the same coin.

On the abortion referendum, I think the 8th will be narrowly repealed. The urban areas and the youth vote (if hopefully enough have registered by now) will swing it.

Zubeneschamali · 04-05-2018 2:36pm

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

For me the repeal of the 8th amendment is a rights issue, specifically rights I don't have as a woman that you do as a man. If you think that's fair and just then fine, but at least come out and say it

In fairness to Thirdfox, he thinks he as a father has a right to prevent his partner getting an abortion, so he has been pretty upfront about his opinion of your rights as a woman to your body.

You don't have any - he owns it as it is incubating his child.

Zubeneschamali · 04-05-2018 2:39pm

SusieBlue wrote: »

It will just cause more distress and suffering to the living breathing woman having the crisis.

This is the whole idea. Punish the sluts, make them do the walk of shame to the Ryanair gate and limp back bleeding. Good enough for them.

04-05-2018 2:39pm

Thirdfox wrote: »

Quick answer - I do - I support the current, and a limited expansion of the current legal abortion regime in Ireland.

If you are asking why we don't adopt other countries laws as our own then I have laid out my reasons numerous times already.

It is whataboutery in my eyes to raise the fact that something is legal elsewhere to be solely the determination of if something is to be legal in Ireland - I have said time and again I cannot (well technically Irish citizens do get some extra voting rights in the UK but presumably it is residency based) change the laws of other countries (or when they hold referendums I need not apply) but for my own country I can.

If we take a principle of "if Irish people can get it elsewhere that is solely a good reason to allow it here" then should we allow prostitution (yes, and tax it too I say) , cannabis use (I actually think we should but that's beside the point), euthanasia or any multitude of laws where other countries' laws differe to our own.

An Irish person can use a legal brothel in Germany so why don't we support it here in Ireland?

An Irish person can go to a Dutch coffee shop (though that is being increasingly restricted from what little I know of drug laws in Amsterdam) so why can't we have Irish coffee shops?

An Irish person can hop on a plane to Switzerland to visit dignitas so we should just change our laws on assisted suicide then (again I think we should, but not due to the sole reason of it being easily accessible elsewhere).

Something being available elsewhere is not a reason (by itself) for it to be available here. Examine everything on its own merits.

No, I am not suggesting because something is legal somewhere else it should be legal here.

None of your above examples are remotely close to abortion.
Women in this country have the constitutional right to information on abortion & the right to travel & have abortions.
Show me anywhere in the constitution that gives citizens the right to travel to do any of the illegal activity you mentioned above.

So, again, why would you refuse to allow women receive terminations in their own country when they have the constitutional right to avail of it overseas?

gmisk · 04-05-2018 2:39pm

ELM327 wrote: »

With one line buried in irrelevant drivel it's difficult to keep up.
People can change their mind.
Since you love tangential posts:

3 months before the SSM referendum I was very much a No voter and proud of it. Because, you know, ewww the gays and all that.
But then I realised who I was agreeing with (bible bashers, the old, and the iona institute) and who I was arguing with (people who wanted the same rights as everyone else) and I realised, regardless of my feelings towards gay people, what business is their bedroom or relationship, to me!

And its the same group of bible bashers, the old, and Iona institute that are hardline no here too.

Ireland 10 years ago is very different to the Ireland nowadays.

Ah come on! Thats not very nice! (gmisk sashays away)
I appreciate your change of opinion

Gay people are just people really, as couples we generally spend most weekends in B and Q arguing over tiles like everyone else.

I think sweeping this issue under the carpet isn't good enough any longer, we need to help women and couples in this country and stop forcing people to travel or getting pills by non regulated means, its as simple as that for me.

Thankfully the sway the catholic church has is on the wain when it comes to issues like this and when it came to gay people having equal rights.

nozzferrahhtoo · 04-05-2018 2:40pm

Thirdfox wrote: »

If we take away the right to life (or from someone else's perspective ascribe the right to life) to a human being - there must be a good reason for doing so.

So what is the "good reason" for ascribing the right to life to a 12/16 week old fetus that does not have the faculty of sentience, never has had it, and is a distinct period of time away from getting it?

Thirdfox wrote: »

Something being available elsewhere is not a reason (by itself) for it to be available here. Examine everything on its own merits.

It depends on the context that that argument is being presented in however. As you say IN ISOLATION the point "It is legal over there so why not here" is of little merit.

But a lot of people are under the impression the 8th, and voting to keep the 8th, will somehow prevent abortions from happening. And in THAT context the availability of it in the UK does become relevant, as does the point "If they can get it there why not here".

The law simply is not preventing those abortions from happening. Or at least the only ones it is preventing from happening are in the people who do not have the time money or resources to get to the UK to procure it.

So not only do I not see their agenda of preventing abortions with this law as being successful..... the abortions they are preventing are the ones that given the choice we would least likely want to prevent. That is to say if abortions have to happen somewhere across the economic continuum..... would we really solely want to prevent the ones in the poorest of the poor?

Zubeneschamali · 04-05-2018 2:42pm

Look at the time.

Incoming new fence-sitting posters who just want to ask questions!

Everyone on their best behaviour for the new posters!

kylith · 04-05-2018 2:46pm

RobertKK wrote: »

This referendum is on the piece of law that provides protection for unborn lives, there are laws to protect all other lives.
That is why this is different a Yes vote will remove the only protection in Irish law for unborn lives - as stated by the Supreme Court recently.

And removes protection from women because they are pregnant. Would you look a woman in your family in the face, Robert, and tell her that it is right for her health to suffer and her to be denied medication unless she is literally dying?

Triceratops Ballet · 04-05-2018 2:51pm

kylith wrote: »

And removes protection from women because they are pregnant. Would you look a woman in your family in the face, Robert, and tell her that it is right for her health to suffer and her to be denied medication unless she is literally dying?

The rights of those women get sacrificed on the alter of "moral superiority"

"we'd love women to have the right to bodily autonomy but if we give them that right they might do the wrong thing with it, so they can't be trusted" :rolleyes:

kylith · 04-05-2018 2:53pm

Thirdfox wrote: »

Quick answer - I do - I support the current, and a limited expansion of the current legal abortion regime in Ireland.

What’s your opinion on me having no power to consent to or refuse procedures, or having no right to informed consent, or having no right to medical treatment until there is a real and substantial risk to my life, as opposed to my health?

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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