8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

Triceratops Ballet · 01-05-2018 01:18PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm all for voting yes but it boggles my mind that you can claim this isn't about abortion. It seems to me that's a diversion tactic like you said yourself. I genuinely thought you were pro-life when I read the beginning of that post.

Am I mistaken in thinking this is opening the door to termination of pregnancy up until 12 weeks?

You're not mistaken, but it isn't as simple as a yes vote meaning abortion will be available.

If there is a yes vote and the legislation as proposed passes both houses of the oireachtas, then there will be abortion available up to 12 weeks. If the former happens but the latter does not abortion will remain illegal except for the circumstances that it's currently permitted.

If the former happens and the legislation doesn't pass it's likely different legislation will be proposed, we have no indication of what this revised legislation could be, but chances are it would be more restrictive than what's currently on the table.

This is why I say to people they can lobby their local politicians on the issue, your TD has to vote to pass the legislation, if one is really not happy with the legislation, your TD has the opportunity to object to it and have it changed.
The 12 week proposal is in no way set in stone and it is not guaranteed to pass. The people don't get to vote on it, only our elected representatives do.

Zubeneschamali · 01-05-2018 01:20PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Am I mistaken in thinking this is opening the door to termination of pregnancy up until 12 weeks?

It is allowing the Dail to legislate, so technically we are not voting for abortion.

But we all understand that the legislation on the table will be for the Citizens Assembly recommendation of 12 weeks unrestricted access plus woman's health and FFA after 12 weeks.

I think it would be a brave politician who would bring down the Government to prevent it after this referendum, considering 80%+ of people surveyed have understood the 12 week proposal. The referendum will be a mandate for those proposals which the politicians will use for cover.

gctest50 · 01-05-2018 01:28PM

seamus wrote: »

Anti-choicers standing outside maternity hospitals over the last couple of days holding up big banners with pictures of foetuses and talking about killing babies.

While women are attending these hospitals knowing their unborn child is dying or even giving birth to stillborn or terminally ill children.

The love both campaign are just pure animals. No compassion, no love. Just scumbags.

This is as bad as the time they put an anti-abortion ad outside the rape crisis centre.

That's probably because some of them are mad to bring in hospices :

Their motivation would be clear enough,

- vhi etc will pay for 100 days for mental health

they'll just make out the woman involved might commit suicide or if she terminates the pregnancy it might affect her

longer version :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXTEt3KSrYw

ELM327 · 01-05-2018 01:32PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm all for voting yes but it boggles my mind that you can claim this isn't about abortion. It seems to me that's a diversion tactic like you said yourself. I genuinely thought you were pro-life when I read the beginning of that post.

Am I mistaken in thinking this is opening the door to termination of pregnancy up until 12 weeks?

This is only to remove the 8th amendment. Nothing more nothing less.
It will put us back to how it was in 1983. Abortions were still illegal then.

Wrongway1985 · 01-05-2018 01:33PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Am I mistaken in thinking this is opening the door to termination of pregnancy up until 12 weeks?

80+% of abortions are sought in the first trimester. After that one may be required due to multiple complications that might occur however posters in the no campaign have a one year old or whatever wanting people to believe it will become common practice that 5 months down the line or whatever women with healthy pregnancies will say actually you know what feck this I'm not having this kid!..because that makes perfect sense.

joe40 · 01-05-2018 01:37PM

I know strictly speaking we are voting to repeal the 8th amendment. Legislation has been proposed in the event of a yes vote but this is far from guaranteed to pass especially if Fianna fail and Fine gale TDs are allowed a free vote.
A repeal of the 8th amendment also enables future legislation from future governments - which is how democracies are supposed to work.
You could conceivably get government legislation to ban abortion in the future.
However the 8th amendment was introduced in 1983 with the express purpose of preventing abortion in Ireland and prevent any legislation to introduce any form of abortion. So indirectly this vote is about abortion
It was a blunt tool, and unworkable since it required 3 further referendums to amend it. it should go

01-05-2018 01:50PM

ELM327 wrote: »

This is only to remove the 8th amendment. Nothing more nothing less.
It will put us back to how it was in 1983. Abortions were still illegal then.

To say this is only about removing an amendment is a gross simplification of the issue imo. This thread is constantly calling out the No argument (and rightly so) but to claim this vote isn't related to abortion is a flagrant misrepresentation. Sure if that was the case, what have we all been arguing about for the past few years.

joe40 · 01-05-2018 01:58PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Am I mistaken in thinking this is opening the door to termination of pregnancy up until 12 weeks?

It is allowing the Dail to legislate, so technically we are not voting for abortion.

But we all understand that the legislation on the table will be for the Citizens Assembly recommendation of 12 weeks unrestricted access plus woman's health and FFA after 12 weeks.

I think it would be a brave politician who would bring down the Government to prevent it after this referendum, considering 80%+ of people surveyed have understood the 12 week proposal. The referendum will be a mandate for those proposals which the politicians will use for cover.

In our political system a politician is only answerable to their own constituency on election day. So a politician from a rural constituency with a large "No" vote would have no problem voting against the legislation even if is against the majority wishes of the country overall.
Every politician is primarily answerable to their constituents only. It is a major flaw with our system

Bredabe · 01-05-2018 01:59PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm all for voting yes but it boggles my mind that you can claim this isn't about abortion. It seems to me that's a diversion tactic like you said yourself. I genuinely thought you were pro-life when I read the beginning of that post.

Am I mistaken in thinking this is opening the door to termination of pregnancy up until 12 weeks?

It's not just about potential abortion legislation,
8th impacts on how women of fertile age are treated or not in medical situations.

I've already spoken of how I was told I could not get the proper painkillers for a shoulder condition, in case I got pregnant(no chance of that) during the treatment. My sibling had the same condition and recovered much faster because he was prescribed ponstan, as there was no chance of him becoming pregnant. I was offered panadol and anti-inflammatories.

It affects the availability of some types of contraception and when/if some kind of diagnostic tools can be used or when these treatments are dependant on when a patients last menstrual period was, so far both dip tests(a method most women use to establish pregnancy) and bloods, have been rejected as a workaround for women with cycle issues.

Each institution has its own interpretation of what the legislation means in any situation. It's a mess as it stands.

gmisk · 01-05-2018 02:50PM

http://www.thejournal.ie/icbr-graphic-imagery-3988089-May2018/
Graphic Posters Outside Maternity Hospital
It seems even John Mc Guirk is attempting to distance himself from this......absolutely disgraceful behaviour

Dyr · 01-05-2018 02:56PM

gmisk wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/icbr-graphic-imagery-3988089-May2018/
Graphic Posters Outside Maternity Hospital
It seems even John Mc Guirk is attempting to distance himself from this......absolutely disgraceful behaviour

I was just wondering if gardai were asking for names and addresses off these boyos and it turns out that they're yanks could they be pulled for putting false information on visas?

High time we stopped external religious organisations and foreign nutters pumping time and money into campaigns here.

B0jangles · 01-05-2018 02:58PM

gmisk wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/icbr-graphic-imagery-3988089-May2018/
Graphic Posters Outside Maternity Hospital
It seems even John Mc Guirk is attempting to distance himself from this......absolutely disgraceful behaviour

Jean-Simonis Engela, from the ICBR, said that the group plans further demonstrations outside the three maternity hospitals later this week.

He told TheJournal.ie that criticism of his group’s actions was “disingenuous virtue signalling” and that the public “has a right to see” what an aborted foetus looks like.

Anyone who uses this phrase unironically is 100% guaranteed to be an assh*le. This guy is an exceptionally obnoxious one.

Bredabe · 01-05-2018 03:01PM

gmisk wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/icbr-graphic-imagery-3988089-May2018/
Graphic Posters Outside Maternity Hospital
It seems even John Mc Guirk is attempting to distance himself from this......absolutely disgraceful behaviour

Even my misogynic and very very catholic boysibs think these types are cray cray. That says something.

Zubeneschamali · 01-05-2018 03:03PM

B0jangles wrote: »

Jean-Simonis Engela

Is he one of the Banagher Engelas?

_Dara_ · 01-05-2018 03:12PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I’m all for voting yes but it boggles my mind that you can claim this isn't about abortion. It seems to me that's a diversion tactic like you said yourself. I genuinely thought you were pro-life when I read the beginning of that post.

Am I mistaken in thinking this is opening the door to termination of pregnancy up until 12 weeks?

It’s not just about abortion. If I was pregnant by choice tomorrow, I would be nervous being pregnant in Ireland. Why? Because when a woman becomes pregnant in Ireland, for those 40 weeks, her life isn’t protected. What part of that is to do with abortion, pray tell?

Anne1982h · 01-05-2018 03:32PM

NuMarvel wrote: »

I'm a gay man too, and I'm voting Yes. Because we know what it's like to have the State interfere in our fundamental rights. We know what it's like to be regarded as criminals even if we'll never actually go to jail. The 8th is a relic of that kind of Ireland; in the same year the 8th was passed, David Norris lost his Supreme Court challenge and the killers of Declan Flynn walked free. That's the kind of Ireland that needs to be left in the past.

And like I said to straight people during the marriage equality referendum, it may not affect you directly, but it does affect someone you know. A sister, a niece, an aunt, friend, co-worker; someone you know will need an abortion and the decision you make will determine the kind of care and treatment they receive when they make that decision.

The women of Ireland supported us three years when we needed them, now it's our turn and I'm not going to let them down.

Lovely post.

groovyg · 01-05-2018 03:47PM

gmisk wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/icbr-graphic-imagery-3988089-May2018/
Graphic Posters Outside Maternity Hospital
It seems even John Mc Guirk is attempting to distance himself from this......absolutely disgraceful behaviour

Well that's interesting - because the group behind ICBR have canvassed under Save the 8th banner. But then again has John ever told the truth
https://twitter.com/anitambyrne/status/991323632046665730

The Legend Of Kira · 01-05-2018 03:49PM

The Icbr protesting outside the hospital yesterday went too far,,there is a saying that " there is a time & a place for everything " having a protest outside the hospital was neither the time nor the place for their protest & they gained nothing from doing it only annoy people- even John Mc Guirk has openly disagreed with the Icbr protest.

01-05-2018 04:02PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

It’s not just about abortion. If I was pregnant by choice tomorrow, I would be nervous being pregnant in Ireland. Why? Because when a woman becomes pregnant in Ireland, for those 40 weeks, her life isn’t protected. What part of that is to do with abortion, pray tell?

Erm... that has got something to do with abortion. The life of the unborn is equal to that of the mother. We all know this. You've phrased it differently. Freely available abortions unblocked by the constitution would put the mother's life first.

I was debating those who said it wasn't about abortion. I never claimed it was just about abortion, but it was disingenuous to claim it isn't related.

Why am bothering to argue the semantics of all this ...

Bredabe · 01-05-2018 04:17PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Erm... that has got something to do with abortion. The life of the unborn is equal to that of the mother. We all know this. You've phrased it differently. Freely available abortions unblocked by the constitution would put the mother's life first.

I was debating those who said it wasn't about abortion. I never claimed it was just about abortion, but it was disingenuous to claim it isn't related.

Why am bothering to argue the semantics of all this ...

I for one, am well sick of being denied care in case "someone else" might do something that's not approved of. For instance, when I had a medical condition in my teens(a common condition that runs in my family), I was denied the hormones I needed, because the law said these were only available to married women. In case I was, like lots of ppl lying about my condition to get my hands on contraception.

While I agree the 8th is partially about potential abortion, it's not only about that, so why have I suffered horribly all my fertile like in case someone else might use the meds for some other reason or in case it might harm a non-existent entity?. Sadly because of the way the initial wording was, we are now faced with having to remove the whole thing to get the right balance. That is a political matter, and TD's are just gagging to hear peoples views on that.

01-05-2018 04:19PM

HonestKevin wrote: »

Trust women. No questions asked.

Why should we trust women? There are good, bad, and indifferent women in the World, just as there are good, bad and indifferent men.

Of all the arguments being used, that is one of the stupidest.

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

I know one poor woman who ended up needing 100 stitches because of an excessive episiotomy, she was having a difficult delivery, requested a section was ignored and in the end they just cut her right open, she went home literally unable to sit for weeks with a newborn, and she could do nothing about it because under our system what she wants doesn't matter an iota

That is totally disingenuous. Nothing to do with the 8th, only to do with the amount power doctors have over their patients, since it was, to use your own words "a difficult delivery" - not a question of abortion at all, more a question of the (lack of?) standard of care.

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

It's not though. Referenda are only held to amend the constitution. We are voting on repealing or retaining an existing article in the constitution.

The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

That is the text we are voting on. It is factually incorrect to say we are voting on abortion.

Following a yes vote in the referendum there is a proposal to introduce legislation to regulate abortion in Ireland. There is legislation that has been proposed for this, but it has not been passed. We are not voting on this legislation.

In the event of a victory for yes and if the legislation were to fail to pass through the houses of government, it would not be made law. If the government were to fall (it is a minority government and this is the kind of issue that could collapse a government) the incoming government would have no obligation to proceed with the proposed legislative changes.
In either of those instances abortion would still be illegal in Ireland save for the circumstances it is currently legal but womens rights during pregnancy would no longer be compromised.
The 8th amendment is about so much more than abortion, and reducing it to that is disingenuous.

No. We are not voting on abortion. We are, however, voting on the removal of protection of the unborn, with a view to allowing abortion legislation to be decided by Politicians.

joe40 wrote: »

In our political system a politician is only answerable to their own constituency on election day. So a politician from a rural constituency with a large "No" vote would have no problem voting against the legislation even if is against the majority wishes of the country overall.
Every politician is primarily answerable to their constituents only. It is a major flaw with our system

Hmm. Not quite true. I'm sure we're all aware of the party whip system, where TDs and Councillors can have the "choice" of following the party line, or being suspended/expelled from the party, should they disagree.

_Dara_ wrote: »

It’s not just about abortion. If I was pregnant by choice tomorrow, I would be nervous being pregnant in Ireland. Why? Because when a woman becomes pregnant in Ireland, for those 40 weeks, her life isn’t protected. What part of that is to do with abortion, pray tell?

_Dara_ · 01-05-2018 04:31PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Erm... that has got something to do with abortion. The life of the unborn is equal to that of the mother. We all know this. You've phrased it differently. Freely available abortions unblocked by the constitution would put the mother's life first.

I was debating those who said it wasn't about abortion. I never claimed it was just about abortion, but it was disingenuous to claim it isn't related.

Why am bothering to argue the semantics of all this ...

Actually, in the event of the woman becoming seriously ill during pregnancy, the foetus enjoys greater rights. At that point, the survival of the foetus supersedes the survival of the woman. Greater rights for the foetus, not equal rights.

If I had been pregnant at the time of my cancer diagnosis, I wouldn’t have been allowed to have a CT scan to ascertain the extent of the spread. And I wouldn’t have been able to start treatment until the end of the pregnancy. Greater rights for the foetus. Wonderful.

Triceratops Ballet · 01-05-2018 04:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

That is totally disingenuous. Nothing to do with the 8th, only to do with the amount power doctors have over their patients, since it was, to use your own words "a difficult delivery" - not a question of abortion at all, more a question of the (lack of?) standard of care.

There's nothing disingenuous about it, the 8th amendment affects the standard of care women receive during pregnancy in this country regardless of if abortion is involved or not. Pregnant women are explicitly excluded from the HSE's policy on consent because of the 8th amendment, meaning they have no right to consent/even be informed about the medical interventions they are subject to during labour. Women have had to go to the high court to have their rights to not have a c-section against their wishes vindicated.

Deleted User wrote: »

No. We are not voting on abortion. We are, however, voting on the removal of protection of the unborn, with a view to allowing abortion legislation to be decided by Politicians.

I never said that wasn't the case, but we are not voting on abortion, that remains a fact.

Wrongway1985 · 01-05-2018 04:52PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why should we trust women? There are good, bad, and indifferent women in the World, just as there are good, bad and indifferent men.

Of all the arguments being used, that is one of the stupidest.

Honestly what's the reasoning here? ALL women should suffer as SOME can't be trusted?

We should trust women to know what's best for THEMSELVES in the result of pregnancy in their circumstances. YOUR personal opinion of them maybe being either kind or a snake is absolutely irrelevant.

One the stupidest posts I've read all day.

yourdeadwright · 01-05-2018 04:57PM

Iv decided I'm not voting, I can see good and bad points form both side and can't decide
So I feel I have right to decline to vote, sometime life is not black or white,
Of course people will say then don't complain about the outcome, don't worry I won't

yourdeadwright · 01-05-2018 04:58PM

Wrongway1985 wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Why should we trust women? There are good, bad, and indifferent women in the World, just as there are good, bad and indifferent men.

Of all the arguments being used, that is one of the stupidest.

Honestly what's the reasoning here? ALL women should suffer as SOME can't be trusted?

We should trust women to know what's best for THEMSELVES in the result of pregnancy in their circumstances. YOUR personal opinion of them maybe being either kind or a snake is absolutely irrelevant.

One the stupidest posts I've read all day.

Just to pull you up there his PERSONAL opinion is all that counts ,its his choice what he votes not your or anyone else,

robarmstrong · 01-05-2018 05:01PM

I respect your commitment to not voting, that's fair enough and you have absolutely every right to do so, and hopefully nobody should tell you otherwise.

However, it's "his choice" what he votes, and "his choice" means that women won't get a choice, that's what the aggro is about.

It wasnt me123 · 01-05-2018 05:05PM

yourdeadwright I respect your decision - its your vote to use or not. Life is not black or white but shades of grey and that's what I find is wrong with the 8th Amendment and I'm looking for Repeal. Life is not black and white and that amendment does not allow for shades of grey. You can complain about the outcome if you want, this is a democracy, it won't impact anyone on this thread.

Repeal all the way, body autonomy for all.

yourdeadwright · 01-05-2018 05:06PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

I respect your commitment to not voting, that's fair enough and you have absolutely every right to do so, and hopefully nobody should tell you otherwise.

However, it's "his choice" what he votes, and "his choice" means that women won't get a choice, that's what the aggro is about.

Shouldn't be any aggro, is such a personal thing worry about your own vote and let other people vote as they please
By the way you put it do you believe only women should be voting on this or should men only be allowed vote if they vote yes ?
Again i'm not on either side,

It wasnt me123 · 01-05-2018 05:07PM

All should vote, this amendment affects women's biology/body autonomy but these women are married to men, have sons, fathers, etc. It affects all people living in Ireland.

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

Comments