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Is Islam right for Ireland?

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  • #92
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    This is the thing that I don't understand. It tends to be those on the left who are all for immigration, and have no qualms about Islamic immigration. The very same people who during the Same-sex Marriage referendum would label anyone who was against the referendum as "homophobic".

    Yet gay rights are essentially non-existent in the Muslim world, and even in Britain the majority of muslims polled believe that homosexuality should be illegal altogether, never mind not allowing gay people to marry.

    The reason I dislike Muslim immigration is because I am a social liberal, and Islam is not a socially liberal religion. I wonder how many Muslims would vote to Repeal the 8th.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

    But nobody is asking you to become a Muslim or to practice their beliefs or to change the law to be more in line with Muslims values. If a Muslim comes here they will have to abide by the law here which prevents discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation. So what is your fear of exactly?


  • #93
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,399 ✭✭✭eeguy


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    The Catholic Church is a spent force in Ireland. Ireland grew up and shrugged off its autocratic rule.

    We're far from there yet.

    The church still has plenty of influence on education and healthcare. Just look at church influence on the marriage referendum and the abortion referendum.

    There's still plenty of money and plenty of sway from the Catholic church in this country.


  • #94
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,227 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    bubblypop wrote: »
    kosovo.
    albania also

    Funny you should mention Kosovo.
    It has gone from a secular state to probably Europe's Jihadist stronghold.

    All thanks to huge Saudi investment in spreading Salafist attitude.

    Bosnia also has gone backwards ever since the foreign islamist fighters of the 90s and also Saudi investment.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • #95
    garbo speaks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 300 ✭✭garbo speaks


    eeguy wrote: »
    Christianity is dangerous. Particularly Catholicism in Ireland.

    We and our previous generations are no different from those in other parts of the world.

    You can't honestly compare Christianity to Islam.


  • #96
    conorhal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Islam isn't right for the Middle East, let alone Ireland.


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  • #97
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,867 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    eeguy wrote: »
    We're far from there yet.

    The church still has plenty of influence on education and healthcare. Just look at church influence on the marriage referendum and the abortion referendum.

    There's still plenty of money and plenty of sway from the Catholic church in this country.

    yep. When the church owns something like 90% of the schools in the country you can't really say they have no influence.


    Just referring back to the OP. The problem with talking about islam is that people tend to point out the worst adherents and use them as models for the entire religion. It's the equivalent of me picking the Lords Resistance Army and using them to say christian are violent and nasty.
    They'll also pick a few phrases from the Koran and say that is representative of the whole book and indeed the entire religion. Once again it's the same as me picking a few choice piece from the new testament and saying it's representative of the bible and all christians.

    At the end of the day every muslim ends up being part of a huge monolithic culture that is only as good as it's worst member, rather than being an individual.


  • #98
    RobbieTheRobber
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,281 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    garbo speaks wrote: »
    You can't honestly compare Christianity to Islam.

    Why not?

    Most self proclaimed free speech absolutists are giant big whiny snowflakes!



  • #99
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Captain Obvious wrote: »
    But nobody is asking you to become a Muslim or to practice their beliefs or to change the law to be more in line with Muslims values. If a Muslim comes here they will have to abide by the law here which prevents discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation. So what is your fear of exactly?

    Did you read post 56?

    My fear is the attitude these people have towards certain minorities and women. I am aware not all Muslims have these negative attitudes, but does it not worry you that, for example, 52% of British Muslims believe homosexuality should be illegal compared to "just" 5% of non-British Muslims?

    And no they're not asking...yet.


  • #100
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Summer In the City wrote: »
    Do you have any examples of this?

    Well, we have the Sharia councils in the UK.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/02/the-guardian-view-on-sharia-councils-shedding-some-light

    Then, we could consider something like this:

    https://www.cspii.org/en/blog/sharia-law-in-europe

    "The Law Society published guidelines for drawing up documents according to Islamic rules, which would exclude non-Muslims and encroach on women’s rights. Using these guidelines, High Street Solicitors will be able to write Islamic wills which will have the power to exclude non-Muslims completely and deny women an equal share of an inheritance [24]"

    "The principle of Sharia law has also been used in Germany. Even though Sharia law is not included directly in the German legal code, it is officially used in court to decide ‘Muslim’ cases. Elements of Sharia were used in cases involving family and inheritance disputes [26–27]. The interior minister of the state of Rhineland-Palatinate supported the use of Sharia law in 2012 [28]. The court in Hamm announced in April 2013 that Sharia law will be applied in German courts for those who marry under Sharia law in a Muslim country and decide to seek divorce in Germany [29]."

    Am I suggesting Sharia law is widespread in Europe? Nope. I'm not. I still prefer that we examine these things rather than ignore it.


  • #101
    Pepefrogok
    Site Banned Posts: 406 ✭✭Pepefrogok


    Captain Obvious wrote: »
    But nobody is asking you to become a Muslim or to practice their beliefs or to change the law to be more in line with Muslims values. If a Muslim comes here they will have to abide by the law here which prevents discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation. So what is your fear of exactly?

    Do you believe laws to be static? Or do you understand that if enough people agitate for change then change will come? Gay marriage and the future 8th repeal are examples, liberals always assume that the hardened attitudes of immigrants will soften as they adapt to our ways when the evidence points towards them keeping their beliefs and looking for society to bend to their wants.its a sort of bigotry within the liberal mind set, they assume the immigrants will want to be a part of our culture and forget their own, the same way they have the bigotry of low expectations for certain minority groups.


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  • #102
    Summer In the City
    Closed Accounts Posts: 249 ✭✭Summer In the City


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Well, we have the Sharia councils in the UK.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/02/the-guardian-view-on-sharia-councils-shedding-some-light

    Then, we could consider something like this:

    https://www.cspii.org/en/blog/sharia-law-in-europe

    "The Law Society published guidelines for drawing up documents according to Islamic rules, which would exclude non-Muslims and encroach on women’s rights. Using these guidelines, High Street Solicitors will be able to write Islamic wills which will have the power to exclude non-Muslims completely and deny women an equal share of an inheritance [24]"

    "The principle of Sharia law has also been used in Germany. Even though Sharia law is not included directly in the German legal code, it is officially used in court to decide ‘Muslim’ cases. Elements of Sharia were used in cases involving family and inheritance disputes [26–27]. The interior minister of the state of Rhineland-Palatinate supported the use of Sharia law in 2012 [28]. The court in Hamm announced in April 2013 that Sharia law will be applied in German courts for those who marry under Sharia law in a Muslim country and decide to seek divorce in Germany [29]."

    Am I suggesting Sharia law is widespread in Europe? Nope. I'm not. I still prefer that we examine these things rather than ignore it.

    Both them cases are to do with inheritance. We have lots of problems with that ourselves.

    I don't agree with the Sharia Councils if they are encroaching on the law of the land either.


  • #103
    topper75
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    Witchie wrote: »
    The more anti-muslim rhethoric, the more you encourage fundamentalism.


    Hilarious BS this one.

    A first cousin of the time-honoured Christian BS:

    "Jesus can save you"

    Oh yeah from what?

    "From what he will do to you if you don't let him save you".

    Less of both in Ireland please.


  • #104
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Summer In the City wrote: »
    Both them cases are to do with inheritance. We have lots of problems with that ourselves.

    THATS your response!!!!!!!


  • #105
    Summer In the City
    Closed Accounts Posts: 249 ✭✭Summer In the City


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    THATS your response!!!!!!!

    Yeah, what's the problem? The piece is suggesting they used tradition as part of an argument in a German court to sort out an inheritance dispute. That happens here as well.

    The court didn't adopt Sharia Law to settle the case like.


  • #106
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Summer In the City wrote: »
    Yeah, what's the problem? The piece is suggesting they used tradition in a German court to sort out an inheritance dispute. That happens here as well.

    So you think it's ok to exclude people from wills based on their gender?


  • #107
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    Did you read post 56?

    My fear is the attitude these people have towards certain minorities and women. I am aware not all Muslims have these negative attitudes, but does it not worry you that, for example, 52% of British Muslims believe homosexuality should be illegal compared to "just" 5% of non-British Muslims?

    And no they're not asking...yet.

    And it's an attitude that shouldn't be accepted. That's why we have legal protections against discrimination.
    Pepefrogok wrote: »
    Do you believe laws to be static? Or do you understand that if enough people agitate for change then change will come? Gay marriage and the future 8th repeal are examples, liberals always assume that the hardened attitudes of immigrants will soften as they adapt to our ways when the evidence points towards them keeping their beliefs and looking for society to bend to their wants.its a sort of bigotry within the liberal mind set, they assume the immigrants will want to be a part of our culture and forget their own, the same way they have the bigotry of low expectations for certain minority groups.

    Gay marriage, divorce and abortion are all examples of this country successfully defying religious interference and tradition. Why do you think we'll suddenly stop doing that because of some Muslims moving to the country?


  • #108
    Summer In the City
    Closed Accounts Posts: 249 ✭✭Summer In the City


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    So you think it's ok to exclude people from wills based on their gender?

    In Ireland you can exclude anyone from your will based on any reason you like, no?


  • #109
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Captain Obvious wrote: »
    And it's an attitude that shouldn't be accepted. That's why we have legal protections against discrimination.



    Gay marriage, divorce and abortion are all examples of this country successfully defying religious interference and tradition. Why do you think we'll suddenly stop doing that because of some Muslims moving to the country?

    It shouldn't be but in these communities it is. Thats the point...


  • #110
    defrule
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 190 ✭✭defrule


    If Muslim population were to become large, you would expect that political representation will come with it, which would be very reasonable.

    But what if they push for Islam in the education system?

    What if they push to make same sex marriage illegal?

    Granted this would all be democracy at work.


  • #111
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,810 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Before I decide if Islam is the right choice for me - can anyone clarify it's stance on 3 of my favourite activities please

    1: Debauchery
    2: Drunkenness
    3: Drunken Debauchery

    Also just to be safe - does anyone know if it says anything about sausage sambos?


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  • #112
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,299 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    defrule wrote:
    Granted this would all be democracy at work.


    Would this democracy be better than our current democracy?


  • #113
    Odhinn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,521 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Summer In the City wrote: »
    Both them cases are to do with inheritance. We have lots of problems with that ourselves.

    I don't agree with the Sharia Councils if they are encroaching on the law of the land either.

    They exist because Jews were given similar councils over 100 years ago. I'm suprised there are no hindu equivalents. All in all it was a bad idea.


  • #114
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    It shouldn't be but in these communities it is. Thats the point...

    If that's how someone wants to live their lives then let them at it. If someone wants to leave that life they are legally protected in doing so.


  • #115
    corks finest
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,880 ✭✭✭corks finest


    No,and Vic versa


  • #116
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Summer In the City wrote: »
    In Ireland you can exclude anyone from your will based on any reason you like, no?

    If a Muslim man against the wishes of his family marries a Muslim woman, and then dies, the mans family could go to a Sharia law court to deny her her right to his inheritance or to lessen the share she would receive in normal circumstances.

    Likewise with families and inheritence. The men automatically receive double what the female receives.


  • #117
    corks finest
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,880 ✭✭✭corks finest


    TheManTheMyth wrote: »
    There have been countless stories of Muslim immigrants degrading women and gay people all across Europe and generally not integrating into the countries that they have moved to, personally i was very pro migrant about a year (maybe a year and a half) ago but have completely 180'd on the topic and now have a serious feeling of discomfort when i think about Islam spreading to Ireland. Am i the only person who feels like we have enough problems without adding this new religion into the mix? the idea that governments want to change the views of their own people rather than address the source of the issue (in my eyes Islam and the less liberal nations from which these groups originate)scares me because it sends us back to the times of keeping everything silent, it will only lead to another catholic church situation where eventually their atrocities all come to light at once.
    Agree 100 percent,they don't integrate,mix,socialise with Irish ppl,and want to demean and weaken our Christian heritage


  • #118
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,227 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Pepefrogok wrote: »
    Do you believe laws to be static? Or do you understand that if enough people agitate for change then change will come? Gay marriage and the future 8th repeal are examples, liberals always assume that the hardened attitudes of immigrants will soften as they adapt to our ways when the evidence points towards them keeping their beliefs and looking for society to bend to their wants.its a sort of bigotry within the liberal mind set, they assume the immigrants will want to be a part of our culture and forget their own, the same way they have the bigotry of low expectations for certain minority groups.

    It is a superiority complex and an arrogance that they can change them.

    Watching feminists and gays welcoming so called refugees in Europe reminded me of the scene in Independence Day of the eejits on the roof of the skyscraper welcoming the aliens.
    They will be the first casualties.

    And then as in cases in Europe when those with the liberal mindset are are attacked they worry about the perpetrators because otherwise they will see it as an admission of their own failure.
    They don't want to be seen as racist.

    One rape victim did not want their rapist deported because they might be subject to torture when they go back to their home country.
    Yes lets keep a rapist so that some more people can be their victims.

    Hell one victim in Ireland did not even want the rapist's name revealed because it would ruin his life.

    FFS.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • #119
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Captain Obvious wrote: »
    If that's how someone wants to live their lives then let them at it. If someone wants to leave that life they are legally protected in doing so.

    Why should we allow people into our country who has those beliefs though, considering the long struggle undertaken in this country to make those beliefs a minority ?


  • #120
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    If a Muslim man against the wishes of his family marries a Muslim woman, and then dies, the mans family could go to a Sharia law court to deny her her right to his inheritance or to lessen the share she would receive in normal circumstances.

    Likewise with families and inheritence. The men automatically receive double what the female receives.

    But, in Ireland and the UK, the other party would have to voluntarily submit to being judged based on the rules of Sharia law.


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  • #121
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,867 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    http://markhumphrys.com/polls.islam.html

    Should read up on this ...

    You should fact check it. You'll need a few hours.I started reading some of the articles that were linked.

    One of them stated that people believed that suicide bombings by palestinians fighting against israelis were a justified tactic. He rephrased it as it's valid for muslims to suicide bomb jews.

    The guy takes surveys, misrepresents the findings and fails to put them in context.
    He's effectively lying to try and justify his own beliefs to others.

    Anyone who used his site, or him, as a source of knowledge, is going to be deliberately misled.


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