Laura Whitmore: 'A man put his hand up my skirt in a nightclub and laughed'

monkeybutter · 16-04-2018 06:20PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I was sexually assaulted in Tipp Town in 2009.

Tough looking common bint took a shine and started feeling up me arse at the bar .

Later on in the night our groups were sitting together and she started fiddling up my leg trying to get at my equipment.

All my friends burst their holes laughing at it.

In reality it upset me but I didn't say anything.

It had no lasting impact me , I got over it , just a creepy 40 plus rough wan
This kinda sh1t will happen to every one in their lifetimes.

You poor lad, no one should ever have to go to Tipp Town

16-04-2018 06:23PM

cloudatlas wrote: »

Just because in western society there isn't overt cases of men telling women they can't leave the house unaccompanied doesn't mean there aren't subtle ways in which women are systematically put down.

However, in western countries, women have legal rights which protect them from such influence should they wish to avail of it. It comes down to whether the woman wants to accept such influences or stand up against them. There's very little that society or the law can do further if women are not willing to say enough of such behavior, and call the men out for doing so.

I've been assaulted in public spaces and sneered at,this is a common experience. #notallmen does nothing to minimise the fact that these things have happened to me and my friends, women and are not the problem they should be able to inhabit public spaces without being violated.

#Notallmen doesn't seek to minimize the fact of such harassment. It seeks to point out that many men do not engage in such behavior, and have no intention of ever doing so.

Women are not the problem, but they are the solution. Stand up and report the behavior of any man who is behaving this way. Officially Reporting the men allows for real statistics to be collected and can be used to support the argument that the behavior is more common than most men believe. Reporting the men also allows the protections that society has created in the law to come into effect, and to give women a means of removing or punishing the men who do behave in this fashion.

Simply saying that women are not the problem and that men are the problem, does nothing except to create discord. As has been shown in the last few years, as this topic is brought up again and again. Have the streets or public spaces improved in the time since all these media/online accusations started? No.

Many things need to be looked at like changing sex education in school for example porn ideation is a problem among young men.

I rarely watch porn, but it's a silly argument to make. Porn is intentionally unrealistic, and frankly, you see worse sexual practices in many mainstream movies like Fifty Shades. Then, there's mainstream TV shows which often go out of their way to show sex in rather unrealistic, or the opposite hyper realistic but often brutal tastes.

Porn isn't a problem among young men any more than it's a problem among young women. Most teens have access to the internet, and have seen multiple documentaries on how sex occurs. There should be better sex-education in the home and imparting of values by parents rather than passing the responsibility on to external sources.

Frankly, I feel that we would have more success in preparing young boys and girls for life, if we put more emphasis on parenting than passing off responsibility to other things. Perhaps, devise parenting classes so that adults can learn to teach their children better?

monkeybutter · 16-04-2018 06:23PM

kittensmittens wrote: »

Thing is though, how many times has a "rough aul bint" grabbed your tackle?
From your post it would seem this happened once to you. And it upset you.
Which is TOTALLY UNDERSTANDABLE! She should never have put her hands on a stranger in that manner, bang out of order.

But I think what an awful lot of men especially dont get when it comes to this sort of thing that for a lot of women, this ISNT just a once off thing in their lifetime!!! For some women this goes on EVERY SINGLE night they go out.
Its really not that uncommon tbh and believe me it ends up becoming a real issue for the women involved. It can be very easy to mitigate it but try dealing with it on an ongoing basis and it can be very troubling.
As for someone saying report it to the guards? :D
90% of the time the bouncers etc dont even want to know never mind the guards

Bull**** it does

There aren't enough out there to account for it going on all the time like you say

I've had my chap grabbed about 4 times and I'm not oil painting. Did it bother me, of course not

If they didn't happen to be furiously drunk young wans i'd have decked them, but I was a bit sexist there I suppose

cloudatlas · 16-04-2018 06:40PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

cloudatlas wrote: »

Many things need to be looked at like changing sex education in school for example porn ideation is a problem among young men.

Society has lots of problems with men, from armed robbery, to violent assaults etc. What is it about sexual assaults exactly that make you think that they can be prevented by education (in this case: sex ed classes?). You think men that sexually assault women believe they have consent? Are in some way confused about that? It's nonsense. These arseholes aren't confused about what consent is and isn't. They're just arseholes.

All that can really be done is the same thing society is trying to do for all crimes and that is make them more detectable, improve investigative procedures and educate the public on the best prevention measures that they can take to reduce their risk factors. Course when it comes to sexual assault that's a big No-No as it's immediately seen as victim blaming. So on one hand we hear this constant din of something needs to be done, something needs to be done, but yet when the powers that be do try and do something they get castigated.

They're just arseholes is insufficient. young men learning about sex through watching porn is a problem as it doesn't realistically reflect what happens in the bedroom. Consent classes are not just about the law it's about making both men and women able to be safe and have fun and feel comfortable. Resignation is the worst attitude to these behaviours.

16-04-2018 06:54PM

cloudatlas wrote: »

They're just arseholes is insufficient. young men learning about sex through watching porn is a problem as it doesn't realistically reflect what happens in the bedroom.

Well... TBH the issue is more about how people get to the bedroom. Sex, in practical terms is nothing like porn, and virtually all boys are going to realise that once it happens to them. That's why porn is a fantasy. Most sex until you get into a decent relationship is awkward, frustrating and outright confusing. (Unless you're lucky enough to find someone more experienced than you, and subtle enough to guide the boy/man)

The issue is more about the perception about how people connect, become intimate and how consent is given/withdrawn. And Porn is not the sole factor for most of that. Modern movies and TV shows are just as guilty for presenting impractical or offensive methods but dressed up in normality. The promotion of casual sex in TV shows is probably worse than porn in many ways, because it suggests that it's so common.

Consent classes are not just about the law it's about making both men and women able to be safe and have fun and feel comfortable. Resignation is the worst attitude to these behaviours.

Consent classes would be for clearing the air (that all these debates and media articles have generated) and providing practical guidelines for both genders to follow.

cloudatlas · 16-04-2018 06:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

cloudatlas wrote: »

Just because in western society there isn't overt cases of men telling women they can't leave the house unaccompanied doesn't mean there aren't subtle ways in which women are systematically put down.

However, in western countries, women have legal rights which protect them from such influence should they wish to avail of it. It comes down to whether the woman wants to accept such influences or stand up against them. There's very little that society or the law can do further if women are not willing to say enough of such behavior, and call the men out for doing so.

I've been assaulted in public spaces and sneered at,this is a common experience. #notallmen does nothing to minimise the fact that these things have happened to me and my friends, women and are not the problem they should be able to inhabit public spaces without being violated.

#Notallmen doesn't seek to minimize the fact of such harassment. It seeks to point out that many men do not engage in such behavior, and have no intention of ever doing so.

Women are not the problem, but they are the solution. Stand up and report the behavior of any man who is behaving this way. Officially Reporting the men allows for real statistics to be collected and can be used to support the argument that the behavior is more common than most men believe. Reporting the men also allows the protections that society has created in the law to come into effect, and to give women a means of removing or punishing the men who do behave in this fashion.

Simply saying that women are not the problem and that men are the problem, does nothing except to create discord. As has been shown in the last few years, as this topic is brought up again and again. Have the streets or public spaces improved in the time since all these media/online accusations started? No.

Many things need to be looked at like changing sex education in school for example porn ideation is a problem among young men.

I rarely watch porn, but it's a silly argument to make. Porn is intentionally unrealistic, and frankly, you see worse sexual practices in many mainstream movies like Fifty Shades. Then, there's mainstream TV shows which often go out of their way to show sex in rather unrealistic, or the opposite hyper realistic but often brutal tastes.

Porn isn't a problem among young men any more than it's a problem among young women. Most teens have access to the internet, and have seen multiple documentaries on how sex occurs. There should be better sex-education in the home and imparting of values by parents rather than passing the responsibility on to external sources.

Frankly, I feel that we would have more success in preparing young boys and girls for life, if we put more emphasis on parenting than passing off responsibility to other things. Perhaps, devise parenting classes so that adults can learn to teach their children better?

Sex educator on recently off the ball, Irish man abroad etc who goes into school constantly in Ireland, says young boys getting sex education from porn. Porn largely focuses on male genitalia and male pleasure women are secondary objects. A teen with no reference point will not know the difference between real life and screen. What teen wants to talk to their folks extensively about sex?

Challenging behaviour on a case by case basis isn't working. Wider problem, privately challenging behaviours is only part of it.

Notallmen has been sneeringly tweeted at women tweeting about assault it is tantamount to 'shut up love'.

Women protest trump etc., they do stand up but then it's 'what do ya wan ta achieve feminazis?'

I

16-04-2018 07:12PM

^^^^^ I'm lost.

Outlaw Pete · 16-04-2018 07:35PM

cloudatlas wrote: »

They're just arseholes is insufficient. young men learning about sex through watching porn is a problem as it doesn't realistically reflect what happens in the bedroom.

Well, that would depend on which porn and which bedroom.

I've had many women ask me to be rough with them during sex (choke them, slap them etc) from when I first started having sex and the porn we were all watching back then was very much vanilla in nature (if we seen any at all) Same for my mates, they had lots of girls asking them to tie them up and be rough with them. Where'd we all get that? Quite frankly I think it's a myth that guys are someone looking to engage in sex that young women aren't also interested in. Men talk about it more is all and so therefore they're seen as instigating it and the poor girls have to put up with it.

Fair enough, there for sure some porn that they fake to look like real abuse but this is also a fantasy for many women. Watch any of the Kink Bound series (which has these scenarios) and you'll see the women interviewed before and after and mostly they will be the ones that have came up with whatever fantasy theme they are shooting and that is about to be played out. Not suggesting all young women are interested in such fantasies but nor are all men but yet it's always suggested that it's the guys that are only interested in rough sex, but that's just not the reality.

Consent classes are not just about the law it's about making both men and women able to be safe and have fun and feel comfortable. Resignation is the worst attitude to these behaviours.

You're missing the point. To keep suggesting that consent classes are needed in response to man putting his hand up a woman's skirt in a club and touching her intimately, is to suggest that he was somehow of the belief that he felt she had consented! Or that he was somehow confused about it in someway. Do you really believe that? You might as well be saying that someone who pours themselves a pint in a club needs to attend classes on theft.

Guys who do what that chap did do it for the same reasons women do it and I know just because most men aren't all that bothered by such things doesn't mean women shouldn't be either but the response doesn't change the underlying root cause and that is that when men and women get drunk they get horny. So if anything is needed in society it is classes on alcohol consumption and how it can impede our inhibitions. Frequency of sexual assaults, incidents of violence etc, all go up dramatically when people have consumed large amounts of alcohol. Have you ever heard though, on the back of some guy getting glassed, that we need to teach children that injuring someone in that way is unacceptable? Of course not.

cloudatlas · 16-04-2018 10:21PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Well, that would depend on which porn and which bedroom.

I've had many women ask me to be rough with them during sex (choke them, slap them etc) from when I first started having sex and the porn we were all watching back then was very much vanilla in nature (if we seen any at all) Same for my mates, they had lots of girls asking them to tie them up and be rough with them. Where'd we all get that? Quite frankly I think it's a myth that guys are someone looking to engage in sex that young women aren't also interested in. Men talk about it more is all and so therefore they're seen as instigating it and the poor girls have to put up with it.

Fair enough, there for sure some porn that they fake to look like real abuse but this is also a fantasy for many women. Watch any of the Kink Bound series (which has these scenarios) and you'll see the women interviewed before and after and mostly they will be the ones that have came up with whatever fantasy theme they are shooting and that is about to be played out. Not suggesting all young women are interested in such fantasies but nor are all men but yet it's always suggested that it's the guys that are only interested in rough sex, but that's just not the reality.

You're missing the point. To keep suggesting that consent classes are needed in response to man putting his hand up a woman's skirt in a club and touching her intimately, is to suggest that he was somehow of the belief that he felt she had consented! Or that he was somehow confused about it in someway. Do you really believe that? You might as well be saying that someone who pours themselves a pint in a club needs to attend classes on theft.

Guys who do what that chap did do it for the same reasons women do it and I know just because most men aren't all that bothered by such things doesn't mean women shouldn't be either but the response doesn't change the underlying root cause and that is that when men and women get drunk they get horny. So if anything is needed in society it is classes on alcohol consumption and how it can impede our inhibitions. Frequency of sexual assaults, incidents of violence etc, all go up dramatically when people have consumed large amounts of alcohol. Have you ever heard though, on the back of some guy getting glassed, that we need to teach children that injuring someone in that way is unacceptable? Of course not.

Yes and those girls asked to be tied up,chocked during or before hand that isn't depicted in porn there is a transition and then they are suddenly chocking their partner with no discussion. Yes women enjoy those fantasies too but I'm talking about porn being your only source of sex education, and I'm talking about young men especially, not adults and the level of access to porn has changed with smart phones.

To be honest tying up etc., whatever but I'd seriously re-consider compressing someones airway during sex no matter how kinky it made us feel. Porn shows women as submissive objects so perhaps it would help the guy in the club to think about women in another way, he is obviously struggling to relate to women and the only way he can is aggressively would it be better if he was told there is an alternative. Also sometimes humiliating things happen and it's not just one guy there is a group watching and egging him on but nobody stops him so it's not always the sad loner in the club, lets face it most people go to clubs in packs, so it's seen as cool.

Wasn't it suggested that the government crack down on the drinks industry associating their advertising with sport? Alcohol prevention is such a multifaceted problem, i'm not opening that pandora's box.

16-04-2018 10:47PM

cloudatlas wrote: »

Yes and those girls asked to be tied up,chocked during or before hand that isn't depicted in porn there is a transition and then they are suddenly chocking their partner with no discussion. Yes women enjoy those fantasies too but I'm talking about porn being your only source of sex education, and I'm talking about young men especially, not adults and the level of access to porn has changed with smart phones.

I've had women scratch, and bite drawing blood during sex without talking about it first. Also, you'll find that many women who are interested in the sadistic side of sex, like the "fun" of surprising you with it, rather than sitting down and establishing whether you're actually interested or not. Apparently, as men, we're supposed to be up for everything sexual.

As for porn being their only source of sex education... that's unrealistic in the extreme. If they're watching porn, they have access to the internet, which means they have access to all manner of informational sources regarding sex. They could just as easily download "The lovers guide" series or something similar... Which is exactly what I did. I'm sure there's better instructional DVDs around nowadays though.

To be honest tying up etc., whatever but I'd seriously re-consider compressing someones airway during sex no matter how kinky it made us feel. Porn shows women as submissive objects so perhaps it would help the guy in the club to think about women in another way, he is obviously struggling to relate to women and the only way he can is aggressively would it be better if he was told there is an alternative.

Actually, in a lot of porn the woman is dominant with the male responding to her wishes, and getting "punished" when he's not fast enough obeying her. It really depends on the type of porn you're watching.

Tigger · 16-04-2018 10:49PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I've had women scratch, and bite drawing blood during sex without talking about it first. Also, you'll find that many women who are interested in the sadistic side of sex, like the "fun" of surprising you with it, rather than sitting down and establishing whether you're actually interested or not. Apparently, as men, we're supposed to be up for everything sexual.

As for porn being their only source of sex education... that's unrealistic in the extreme. If they're watching porn, they have access to the internet, which means they have access to all manner of informational sources regarding sex. They could just as easily download "The lovers guide" series or something similar... Which is exactly what I did. I'm sure there's better instructional DVDs around nowadays though.

Actually, in a lot of porn the woman is dominant with the male responding to her wishes, and getting "punished" when he's not fast enough obeying her. It really depends on the type of porn you're watching.

Ah yeah the biters
They bite you and then when you say stop the bite you açai
Bite me back
No I’ll just cum and go

up for anything · 16-04-2018 11:02PM

aidan24326 wrote: »

The world has never been a better place to be a woman than it is now

That just shows how awful it has been and indeed if some strange man feels that it's ok in a public place to reach up under a woman's skirt and grab her labia, undercarriage is too innocent a term, then it's still a pretty shitty place to be a woman.

cloudatlas · 16-04-2018 11:27PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I've had women scratch, and bite drawing blood during sex without talking about it first. Also, you'll find that many women who are interested in the sadistic side of sex, like the "fun" of surprising you with it, rather than sitting down and establishing whether you're actually interested or not. Apparently, as men, we're supposed to be up for everything sexual.

As for porn being their only source of sex education... that's unrealistic in the extreme. If they're watching porn, they have access to the internet, which means they have access to all manner of informational sources regarding sex. They could just as easily download "The lovers guide" series or something similar... Which is exactly what I did. I'm sure there's better instructional DVDs around nowadays though.

Actually, in a lot of porn the woman is dominant with the male responding to her wishes, and getting "punished" when he's not fast enough obeying her. It really depends on the type of porn you're watching.

Conventional porn does not generally depict the woman as dominant it's all about porn is something men get and women give.

Are they really downloading guides or are they watching videos?

Look I listened to this guy Richie Sadlier ex-footballer who went on to university to study psychology and he goes into Irish schools to do six weeks I assume a class a week or so on sex, sexuality, consent, contraception and he said porn is a massive influence, they have unfettered access to the internet, he says he asks the boys what they have learned from porn and some of it was extreme niche kinks like he said they mentioned a kink where a man defecates on a woman and proceeds to have sex with her etc., and he said you know if you apply some of the kind of stuff you see in porn in the bedroom then you are going to cause great distress, possible arrest and that nobody tells them any of this as they are just watching this stuff with no guidance. Porn is formulaic, woman gets choked, hair grabbed and pulled, hands pulled behind and pushed down against the back, finish on the face, the vagina is shown at the end, the penis is shown throughout. Many women need some time to decide if they are into any of that if that is a guys only reference point then....

Edit: I also believe if men learn better ways of treating women when sober that will translate when they aren't.

16-04-2018 11:50PM

cloudatlas wrote: »

Conventional porn does not generally depict the woman as dominant it's all about porn is something men get and women give.

Porn these days is hardly conventional. Asian porn is everywhere as are those from other cultures. When I was a teen, porn consisted mostly of American porn... that's not the case anymore. Any porn website will have plenty of "fetishes" and downloading from torrents will help you find the rest.

And this whole giving/getting is a bit esoteric. Porn is about fantasy, and the fantasy for most men is that the woman loves the sex with him. Women giving without enjoying it is the same as being with a prostitute but it's hardly the material for a fantasy. Men want to know that the woman loves the sex and wants to be with him... that he's a special/wonderful experience for her. That's the 'focus' of most porn.

Are they really downloading guides or are they watching videos?

No idea, but then I haven't seen much actual research that has asked the teens themselves what they're watching. Instead its all these assumptions by adults, or media opinion pieces.

Look I listened to this guy Richie Sadlier ex-footballer who went on to university to study psychology and he goes into Irish schools to do six weeks I assume a class a week or so on sex, sexuality, consent, contraception and he said porn is a massive influence, they have unfettered access to the internet, he says he asks the boys what they have learned from porn and some of it was extreme niche kinks like he said they mentioned a kink where a man defecates on a woman and proceeds to have sex with her etc., and he said you know if you apply some of the kind of stuff you see in porn in the bedroom then you are going to cause great distress, possible arrest and that nobody tells them any of this as they are just watching this stuff with no guidance.

I'd imagine that he's asking leading questions, and the boys are giving him what he wants to hear. Shock and outrage. It's what groups of young boys tend to do when faced with these kind of questions, especially with the peer pressure involved in being part of a group. To out do each other in how graphic and extreme they can be..

Oh, I'm sure they have access to such kind of porn, but then they have access to all kinds of porn on the internet. It's like the people who go to rotten.com just to creep themselves and others out. Doesn't mean it's their normal fare for getting their kicks.

Porn is formulaic, woman gets choked, hair grabbed and pulled, hands pulled behind and pushed down against the back, finish on the face, the vagina is shown at the end, the penis is shown throughout.

Well, no. You talked earlier of conventional porn... and traditional porn follows the formula of a fantasy setting where the woman is sexy, willing and interested. Innocence might be a factor, but more often than not, the woman in the porn will be experienced. There will be minor seduction and then loads of sex in various positions.

You're describing a niche area of porn which deals with humiliation. It's hardly the most popular area. You're more likely to find Teacher/Student roleplays to be popular for teens than what you describe.

Many women need some time to decide if they are into any of that if that is a guys only reference point then....

Agreed on the time for women to decide... Men would need some time too.

But you still haven't sold this idea of porn as an only frame of reference. The Internet holds far more sexual imagery than the extreme porn you seem to believe to be common. We're not living in the 70s/80s anymore. Do you have any research/evidence to back up your belief?

Outlaw Pete · 17-04-2018 12:12AM

cloudatlas wrote: »

Yes women enjoy those fantasies too but I'm talking about porn being your only source of sex education.....

I posted the following on another thread but I think it addresses the above:

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

The impression I get today is that some people must believe that the world began in the late 60's and that the generation of that time invented sexuality. Porn is spoken of as if it depicts sex in a ways that are all brand new and that humans before this point in time all had Mills & Boons esque sex, but nothing could be further from the truth. Freud was writing about sadism and masochism in the early 1900s. The history of human sexuality is vast and just as debauched as you'll find it can be on the likes of xHamster today.

From the orgies held by Roman Emperors to the depraved antics of those such as The Marquis de Sade, it's all been done before. Terms like spit roasting, gangbanged, DP'd etc might be brand new, but the acts surely aren't. Here you can see the latter depicted on an ancient oil lamp. Same goes for most sexual acts in fact. Look around and you'll find evidence of such antics very much being indulged in at earlier points in our history. Even with such things as beastality and worse.

Funnily enough we never seem to hear people wanting slasher movies banned and yet there we have people taking pleasure from watching murder being acted out in a gruesome and graphic fashion. Show a scene in a film with someone being choked and nobody would care. Take their clothes off and throw in a orgasm and people filp out. Pornography today is no more explicit or depraved than it's other incarnations ever were. For sure I think porn needs regulations to ensure that everyone is safe and again we need to do something about how easily children can access it but the calls for banning it and the like is just puritanical nonsense.

As for the family incest themed stuff, that's just the taboo nature of it. Sex is usually something that has elements of dominance and submissiveness. Role play porn is just a way of shoehorning that into a story and what more obvious dominant and submissive relationship is there but that which occurs between parent and sibling. Fair enough, some people take it to extremes (adult nappy nonsense etc) but I don't see it any different to the teacher pupil porn. Is someone saying 'Who's your daddy?' (or indeed, wanting that said to them) indicative of those people actually wanting to not just play around with that dynamic, but actually engage in it? Of course not. No more than those who engage in paintballing actually really wanting to murder people.

I just see porn as a reflection of what goes on in the real world, not the opposite. I take your point about out of context clips that aren't topped and tailed with interviews alright but we could say that about violent movie clips too.

...so perhaps it would help the guy in the club to think about women in another way, he is obviously struggling to relate to women and the only way he can is aggressively would it be better if he was told there is an alternative.

Boys are taught from a young age to respect women. Most lads when young of they even raise their voice to a girl are told not to speak to females that way and to have some respect. Everyone knows that you don't just shove your hand up a woman's skirt. This is not about some knowledge about consent not having been instilled in him.

Also sometimes humiliating things happen and it's not just one guy there is a group watching and egging him on but nobody stops him so it's not always the sad loner in the club, lets face it most people go to clubs in packs, so it's seen as cool.

Oh, I've witnessed that too, but only from women funnily enough:

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

In Temple Bar earlier and a stag do was walking down near Supermacs all dressed in frocks..... group of girls walking in the opposite direction start jeering them about what they have on underneath and one of them runs over and lifts up the frock everyone to see he was going commando.... to much hilarity.

And I have seen women post on Boards saying they have either seen women behave similarly or know personally of some guy that has been treated similarly. Do these women not understand consent? Or is just really about what is tolerated in society and what isn't. Cause I know for damn sure that if a man was witnessed sticking his hand up a girl's skirt in public, he'd most likely get a hiding. A woman seen doing it would generally be laughed at. Which is most likely why that guy did what he did in a dark club.

cloudatlas · 17-04-2018 01:02AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Porn these days is hardly conventional. Asian porn is everywhere as are those from other cultures. When I was a teen, porn consisted mostly of American porn... that's not the case anymore. Any porn website will have plenty of "fetishes" and downloading from torrents will help you find the rest.

And this whole giving/getting is a bit esoteric. Porn is about fantasy, and the fantasy for most men is that the woman loves the sex with him. Women giving without enjoying it is the same as being with a prostitute but it's hardly the material for a fantasy. Men want to know that the woman loves the sex and wants to be with him... that he's a special/wonderful experience for her. That's the 'focus' of most porn.

No idea, but then I haven't seen much actual research that has asked the teens themselves what they're watching. Instead its all these assumptions by adults, or media opinion pieces.

I'd imagine that he's asking leading questions, and the boys are giving him what he wants to hear. Shock and outrage. It's what groups of young boys tend to do when faced with these kind of questions, especially with the peer pressure involved in being part of a group. To out do each other in how graphic and extreme they can be..

Oh, I'm sure they have access to such kind of porn, but then they have access to all kinds of porn on the internet. It's like the people who go to rotten.com just to creep themselves and others out. Doesn't mean it's their normal fare for getting their kicks.

Well, no. You talked earlier of conventional porn... and traditional porn follows the formula of a fantasy setting where the woman is sexy, willing and interested. Innocence might be a factor, but more often than not, the woman in the porn will be experienced. There will be minor seduction and then loads of sex in various positions.

You're describing a niche area of porn which deals with humiliation. It's hardly the most popular area. You're more likely to find Teacher/Student roleplays to be popular for teens than what you describe.

Agreed on the time for women to decide... Men would need some time too.

But you still haven't sold this idea of porn as an only frame of reference. The Internet holds far more sexual imagery than the extreme porn you seem to believe to be common. We're not living in the 70s/80s anymore. Do you have any research/evidence to back up your belief?

I'm not trying to sell you anything. Is Asian porn unconventional? I didn't say extreme porn was common, the choking stuff, pinning arms is readily available on xtube it's not in a niche dom area either. Do you really think they'll be straying too far from xtube, red tube and the likes and torenting looking for specific stuff when they're only starting out.

Yeah you hit the nail on the head their male fantasy the porn available is about the male gaze and what men want to do, see, and a lot of that funnily enough is a lot of clips of the dick, one perspective, one dimension, not really about partnership or at least purely reflecting some one note reality that they want to bring into being, also the women these young lads will probably be having their first experience with probably won't be as experienced as in these films.

I doubt the guy who gives the sex education classes is shocked by anything anymore if that's the intention, I'd say he has their best intentions at heart. I don't have any stats, do you to back up your assertions? Jays we aren't living in the 70s 80s news to me.

cloudatlas · 17-04-2018 01:14AM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

I posted the following on another thread but I think it addresses the above:

I just see porn as a reflection of what goes on in the real world, not the opposite. I take your point about out of context clips that aren't topped and tailed with interviews alright but we could say that about violent movie clips too.

Boys are taught from a young age to respect women. Most lads when young of they even raise their voice to a girl are told not to speak to females that way and to have some respect. Everyone knows that you don't just shove your hand up a woman's skirt. This is not about some knowledge about consent not having been instilled in him.

Oh, I've witnessed that too, but only from women funnily enough:

And I have seen women post on Boards saying they have either seen women behave similarly or know personally of some guy that has been treated similarly. Do these women not understand consent? Or is just really about what is tolerated in society and what isn't. Cause I know for damn sure that if a man was witnessed sticking his hand up a girl's skirt in public, he'd most likely get a hiding. A woman seen doing it would generally be laughed at. Which is most likely why that guy did what he did in a dark club.

Why are the examples of women behaving badly nearly always either a hen party or related to a stag party on after hours?

'Boys are taught from a young age to respect women'. I'm sure but there is a problem I made a suggestion it's been shot down but nothing is in it's place except some guys are assholes, shadowy assholes who lurk in clubs who are faceless and have no points of reference, thoughts feelings.... just assholes and there's nothing that can be done just challenge it on a one to one basis, shut the newspaper, ignore what you hear, see, because #notallmen #shutupnow no solution, no thought process behind it it's all fine sure hasn't it been the same forever.

Outlaw Pete · 17-04-2018 01:42AM

cloudatlas wrote: »

Why are the examples of women behaving badly nearly always either a hen party or related to a stag party on after hours?

Cause women tend to behave far more aggressive sexually when in groups. Look at any footage of women at a male strip venue and you'll see them act in ways you almost never would if a woman was on her own (male stripper in clip below talks a little about that). Not that I haven't had women slip their hands down my jeans over the years, I have, but the overt stuff is generally only indulged in when women are in a group.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_DlqXV0HwA

'Boys are taught from a young age to respect women'. I'm sure but there is a problem I made a suggestion it's been shot down but nothing is in it's place except some guys are assholes, shadowy assholes who lurk in clubs who are faceless and have no points of reference, thoughts feelings.... just assholes and there's nothing that can be done just challenge it on a one to one basis, shut the newspaper, ignore what you hear, see

You're not responding to the points being made though. There are many crimes, not just women being groped, that society contends with and is constantly trying to remedy. There is a suggestion in the tone that is used (generally by those that complain about sexual assaults against women) that more could very easily be done and then why isn't it.... but what do people want to happen exactly?

#notallmen #shutupnow no solution, no thought process behind it it's all fine sure hasn't it been the same forever.

Ah here. Now you're just being silly and again, you're ignoring points that were made. We have had campaigns aimed at trying to reduce risk factors associated with sexual assaults but they are labelled victim blaming. People are saying to always report such assaults and I have posted many cases now where men have indeed been brought before the courts over groping. How can that be referred to as a "#shutupnow" response which has no thought process behind it.

17-04-2018 02:25AM

cloudatlas wrote: »

I'm not trying to sell you anything.

Sure you are. You've repeatedly pointed at porn as being a teens only source of information or education about sex. Your whole objection is based on this since Porn doesn't represent reality and therefore male teens shouldn't be expecting an sexual experience like that in porn.

Is Asian porn unconventional?

Well, Japanese porn as a lot of rape fantasies, and group sex especially with groups of men cumming on a single woman. They also have a lot of bondage/submissive porn often the man being the submissive one. Korean porn has turned to focusing on stepmother relationships, and often displays a power difference between the employer/employee. I could go on, but there's hardly much point in doing so.

I didn't say extreme porn was common, the choking stuff, pinning arms is readily available on xtube it's not in a niche dom area either. Do you really think they'll be straying too far from xtube, red tube and the likes and torenting looking for specific stuff when they're only starting out.

They'll access whatever they've heard about, and will share resources with their friends. Torrent downloads are easy and have the added advantage of being files on your computer rather than browser cookies that parents can check later. The Internet is ridiculously easy resource to mine for porn of all kinds.

Yeah you hit the nail on the head their male fantasy the porn available is about the male gaze and what men want to do, see, and a lot of that funnily enough is a lot of clips of the dick, one perspective, one dimension,

It's more about the penis entering the vagina or other orifice. Few heterosexual men really are going to focus on another mans penis as a source of pleasure.

not really about partnership or at least purely reflecting some one note reality that they want to bring into being, also the women these young lads will probably be having their first experience with probably won't be as experienced as in these films.

Well, no. It's porn, not a romantic drama. Out of curiosity, have you ever watched hardcore lesbian porn? It's also about sex and not about partnership or reflecting reality.

I doubt the guy who gives the sex education classes is shocked by anything anymore if that's the intention, I'd say he has their best intentions at heart..

You're missing the point. The guy asking the questions of groups of students won't get truthful answers because no teenage boy is going to shame himself in front of his peers. The pressure on teenage boys is massive to conform to certain social perceptions, and among males, that often translates into being more experienced about sex than they actually are. It would be the same with porn, with them relating urban legends or references they've heard from others, as personal experience.

If he had the best intentions at heart, then I doubt he'd be using porn as a scapegoat, and would focus more on aspects like poor parenting, confused social values, social guilt being placed on them, etc.

I don't have any stats, do you to back up your assertions? Jays we aren't living in the 70s 80s news to me

You made the initial statements about the effects of porn, and I've called for proof. Got there first. You provide some first, and then I'll invest the time in tracking down research to support my opinions. Still, between us, I'm male commenting on porn as it relates to males, whereas I believe you're female commenting on how porn affects males?

The 70s/80s reference relates to the availability of porn to teenagers. Back in the 70/80s the internet wasn't widespread, male magazines weren't very common, and playboy was the more common magazine for these things. Rather softcore and yet, very difficult for teens to purchase. Nowadays, access to porn whether it's softcore or hardcore is far easier to find.

Lastly, you should take a look at the rates of rape & sexual assault in female prisons by inmates towards other inmates... or female security guards towards the female inmates... It's also worth looking at the stats on violence in lesbian relationships... does porn play into that for women, or is it just easier to pass such things off on to males?

cloudatlas · 17-04-2018 09:25AM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Cause women tend to behave far more aggressive sexually when in groups. Look at any footage of women at a male strip venue and you'll see them act in ways you almost never would if a woman was on her own (male stripper in clip below talks a little about that). Not that I haven't had women slip their hands down my jeans over the years, I have, but the overt stuff is generally only indulged in when women are in a group.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_DlqXV0HwA

You're not responding to the points being made though. There are many crimes, not just women being groped, that society contends with and is constantly trying to remedy. There is a suggestion in the tone that is used (generally by those that complain about sexual assaults against women) that more could very easily be done and then why isn't it.... but what do people want to happen exactly?

Ah here. Now you're just being silly and again, you're ignoring points that were made. We have had campaigns aimed at trying to reduce risk factors associated with sexual assaults but they are labelled victim blaming. People are saying to always report such assaults and I have posted many cases now where men have indeed been brought before the courts over groping. How can that be referred to as a "#shutupnow" response which has no thought process behind it.

which campaigns have been used to reduce sexual assaults?

Woman at a strip club is a very extreme rare example just like women on hen does who are trotted out constantly, I have very, very rarely come across male strip clubs, I have come across the converse in my city. I'm not going to engage with a point which is not the norm and is a rarity.

I've said what needs to happen better sex education in school less porn ideation (sure the recent court case is a good example, 'the good one' sent a porn video to one of the guys the next day) honestly you couldn't make it up.

Representation of women in panels would be nice, more visibility would be nice etc. I suggested politely recently that perhaps next time a sports and fitness personality may like to add a woman to a panel for a fitness event he held, it was met with vitriol, I was told by this guys followers that a porn star had been asked but couldn't attend, the guy wasn't friends with any females in the industry (not true), why don't I see people as individuals there didn't need to be a female there (I liked the guys on the panel but the guy has a lot of female followers so would be nice to be included) the personality stayed quiet throughout the torrent of abuse I received for merely suggesting a woman be included. It happens all the time when you ask for inclusion.

cloudatlas · 17-04-2018 09:38AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Sure you are. You've repeatedly pointed at porn as being a teens only source of information or education about sex. Your whole objection is based on this since Porn doesn't represent reality and therefore male teens shouldn't be expecting an sexual experience like that in porn.

Well, Japanese porn as a lot of rape fantasies, and group sex especially with groups of men cumming on a single woman. They also have a lot of bondage/submissive porn often the man being the submissive one. Korean porn has turned to focusing on stepmother relationships, and often displays a power difference between the employer/employee. I could go on, but there's hardly much point in doing so.

They'll access whatever they've heard about, and will share resources with their friends. Torrent downloads are easy and have the added advantage of being files on your computer rather than browser cookies that parents can check later. The Internet is ridiculously easy resource to mine for porn of all kinds.

It's more about the penis entering the vagina or other orifice. Few heterosexual men really are going to focus on another mans penis as a source of pleasure.

Well, no. It's porn, not a romantic drama. Out of curiosity, have you ever watched hardcore lesbian porn? It's also about sex and not about partnership or reflecting reality.

You're missing the point. The guy asking the questions of groups of students won't get truthful answers because no teenage boy is going to shame himself in front of his peers. The pressure on teenage boys is massive to conform to certain social perceptions, and among males, that often translates into being more experienced about sex than they actually are. It would be the same with porn, with them relating urban legends or references they've heard from others, as personal experience.

If he had the best intentions at heart, then I doubt he'd be using porn as a scapegoat, and would focus more on aspects like poor parenting, confused social values, social guilt being placed on them, etc.

You made the initial statements about the effects of porn, and I've called for proof. Got there first. You provide some first, and then I'll invest the time in tracking down research to support my opinions. Still, between us, I'm male commenting on porn as it relates to males, whereas I believe you're female commenting on how porn affects males?

The 70s/80s reference relates to the availability of porn to teenagers. Back in the 70/80s the internet wasn't widespread, male magazines weren't very common, and playboy was the more common magazine for these things. Rather softcore and yet, very difficult for teens to purchase. Nowadays, access to porn whether it's softcore or hardcore is far easier to find.

Lastly, you should take a look at the rates of rape & sexual assault in female prisons by inmates towards other inmates... or female security guards towards the female inmates... It's also worth looking at the stats on violence in lesbian relationships... does porn play into that for women, or is it just easier to pass such things off on to males?

Lesbian violence example also very rare and a stretch like the aggressiveness of hen parties.

The guy going into schools to teach sex ed is wasting his time asking the guys what they know about sex in order to tailor his teaching because they are experts who are not watching videos but reading research papers and guides? He did talk about male guilt and that when he went into these classrooms the guys were defensive initially because they thought he was there to 'coach the rapiness out of them' but that changed when the focus was not on crime reduction but being comfortable, being there for each other and learning about safe sex. He also said asking them what they knew about sex was a)an ice breaker b) to be able to tailor the course. c)he said it was all based on what they had seen in porn not read in guides etc., It didn't sound like he was looking for the porn reaction, he was given it pervasively.

I was actually very interested in the point that was made in the recent belfast trial when one of the guys sent one of the guys involved a porn video the next day.

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2016/jun/15/majority-boys-online-pornography-realistic-middlesex-university-study

17-04-2018 10:41AM

cloudatlas wrote: »

Lesbian violence example also very rare

err... no. Studies into violence within Lesbian/Gay relationships are rare whereas studies into violence within heterosexual relationships are far more common. However, the claims from the LGBT community is that violence is just as common (if not more common than heterosexual relationships.)

The report usually referenced is the CDC report:

"The CDC stated that 40% of lesbian women reported physical violence by their partners, and 44% reported experiencing physical violence, stalking, or rape by their partners. In contrast, 35% of heterosexual women reported physical violence, stalking, or rape by their partners in the same study"

and a stretch like the aggressiveness of hen parties.

Except that it's coming from the LGBT community themselves, and they're saying that the stigma against being gay discourages people from making official statements of abuse, because they feel they will be ignore or insulted.

There's plenty of LGBT website opinion pieces on the subject.

The guy going into schools to teach sex ed

I did some research of my own about Richie Sadlier, and his courses:

"No previous generation of Irish teenagers has had as much access to pornography as this one. We have open discussions about the scenes they watch and what they are learning, and what if anything, they’re taking from them. At an age where they are forming their own ideas on sex and what it entails, it’s not fair to allow the porn industry be their only guides."

This is what you mean? It's completely taken out of context with the overall message. You've looked at his course and plucked porn out as the major offender. Which is not actually what he says. He points to education in all areas being required.

I also cant find anywhere on the internet where he makes the same points you have.

I was actually very interested in the point that was made in the recent belfast trial when one of the guys sent one of the guys involved a porn video the next day.

I'm not getting into another circular argument about the Belfast Rape trial. There's already a thread on it.

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2016/jun/15/majority-boys-online-pornography-realistic-middlesex-university-study

You know, I'm finding this quite interesting because I noticed something. Virtually every opinion piece by psychologists or articles on teens being exposed to porn are women. During 30 minutes of google searching, I haven't actually found any male journalists/psychologists talking about porn and its effects.

Now; Actual Research/Studies:

""a qualitative study conducted by L¨ofgren-M˚artenson andM˚ansson (2010) contradicts Peter and Valkenburg’s ﬁndings. L¨ofgren-M˚artenson and M˚ansson collected data from an adolescent population (N=51) in Sweden; these data indicated the majority of participants were able to distinguish between the fantasy of sexually explicit material and real-lifesexual interaction. However, the research participants acknowledged that the ideals and pornographic scripts presented in sexually explicit material do inﬂuence young people "

"Lo and Wei’s (2005) study of 2,001 Taiwanese students demonstrated arelationship between adolescents’ exposure to sexually explicit material andpositive attitudes toward premarital and extramarital sexual relations. Laterstudies conducted in Europe and the United States supported these ﬁnd-ings. "

The Impact of Internet Pornography on... (PDF Download Available). Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/239798839_The_Impact_of_Internet_Pornography_on_Adolescents_A_Review_of_the_Research [accessed Apr 17 2018]."

The page is littered with conflicting research assumptions about the behavior and beliefs of teens relating sex and the porn they are exposed to.

cloudatlas · 17-04-2018 03:50PM

Deleted User wrote: »

cloudatlas wrote: »

Lesbian violence example also very rare

err... no. Studies into violence within Lesbian/Gay relationships are rare whereas studies into violence within heterosexual relationships are far more common. However, the claims from the LGBT community is that violence is just as common (if not more common than heterosexual relationships.)

The report usually referenced is the CDC report:

"The CDC stated that 40% of lesbian women reported physical violence by their partners, and 44% reported experiencing physical violence, stalking, or rape by their partners. In contrast, 35% of heterosexual women reported physical violence, stalking, or rape by their partners in the same study"

and a stretch like the aggressiveness of hen parties.

Except that it's coming from the LGBT community themselves, and they're saying that the stigma against being gay discourages people from making official statements of abuse, because they feel they will be ignore or insulted.

There's plenty of LGBT website opinion pieces on the subject.

The guy going into schools to teach sex ed

I did some research of my own about Richie Sadlier, and his courses:

"No previous generation of Irish teenagers has had as much access to pornography as this one. We have open discussions about the scenes they watch and what they are learning, and what if anything, they’re taking from them. At an age where they are forming their own ideas on sex and what it entails, it’s not fair to allow the porn industry be their only guides."

This is what you mean? It's completely taken out of context with the overall message. You've looked at his course and plucked porn out as the major offender. Which is not actually what he says. He points to education in all areas being required.

I also cant find anywhere on the internet where he makes the same points you have.

I was actually very interested in the point that was made in the recent belfast trial when one of the guys sent one of the guys involved a porn video the next day.

I'm not getting into another circular argument about the Belfast Rape trial. There's already a thread on it.

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2016/jun/15/majority-boys-online-pornography-realistic-middlesex-university-study

You know, I'm finding this quite interesting because I noticed something. Virtually every opinion piece by psychologists or articles on teens being exposed to porn are women. During 30 minutes of google searching, I haven't actually found any male journalists/psychologists talking about porn and its effects.

Now; Actual Research/Studies:

""a qualitative study conducted by L¨ofgren-M˚artenson andM˚ansson (2010) contradicts Peter and Valkenburg’s ﬁndings. L¨ofgren-M˚artenson and M˚ansson collected data from an adolescent population (N=51) in Sweden; these data indicated the majority of participants were able to distinguish between the fantasy of sexually explicit material and real-lifesexual interaction. However, the research participants acknowledged that the ideals and pornographic scripts presented in sexually explicit material do inﬂuence young people "

"Lo and Wei’s (2005) study of 2,001 Taiwanese students demonstrated arelationship between adolescents’ exposure to sexually explicit material andpositive attitudes toward premarital and extramarital sexual relations. Laterstudies conducted in Europe and the United States supported these ﬁnd-ings. "

The Impact of Internet Pornography on... (PDF Download Available). Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/239798839_The_Impact_of_Internet_Pornography_on_Adolescents_A_Review_of_the_Research [accessed Apr 17 2018]."

The page is littered with conflicting research assumptions about the behavior and beliefs of teens relating sex and the porn they are exposed to.

Yeah I listened to a podcast he was on recently to talk about the Belfast rape trial I didn't take it out of context. Very pertinent that a porn video was sent the day after in my opinion, that is a reference point for those lads.

Funny that a funded study conducted study is discounted because women conducted it goodnight now.

17-04-2018 04:04PM

cloudatlas wrote: »

Yeah I listened to a podcast he was on recently to talk about the Belfast rape trial I didn't take it out of context. Very pertinent that a porn video was sent the day after in my opinion, that is a reference point for those lads.

Ok. Where is this podcast?

(since I've found nothing by him online confirming your post)

Funny that a funded study conducted study is discounted because women conducted it goodnight now.

Now, you're reaching. I didn't dismiss anything because the writers were female. I simply said it was interesting, and then provided studies which investigated the effects of porn. Also the link you provided was an opinion piece, not the study itself.

Should I be surprised you're not going to argue what I've actually said in the post, but instead deflect?

Outlaw Pete · 18-04-2018 03:05PM

cloudatlas wrote: »

...sure the recent court case is a good example, 'the good one' sent a porn video to one of the guys the next day) honestly you couldn't make it up.

You mean the recent court case where everyone had consensual sex? So.

Sure even if you gave me an example of men who had been found guilty of rape and that had watched porn the next day, so what. Millions of people watch videos of others having sex all the time and don't rape people. It's like correlating murder in movies with real life murders. Millions watch pretty violent films in the cinema all the time but don't kill someone on the way home.

Woman at a strip club is a very extreme rare example just like women on hen does who are trotted out constantly, I have very, very rarely come across male strip clubs, I have come across the converse in my city. I'm not going to engage with a point which is not the norm and is a rarity.

You only think women groping men is a rarity as it's not something men tend to complain about. Hell, most men would encourage it and I bet you if you had a CCTV from any nightclub this weekend you would see far more women getting handsy with men that vice versa. A guy touching a girl's breast in a club is likely to result in a scene, which is understandable, but that's why we tend to think of one as common and the other rare.

Serious sexual assault is different though and I wouldn't suggest that the number of women sexually assaulting men is anywhere near the numbers of men sexually assaulting women but then you don't hear of many millionaires shoplifting either, bar the odd kleptomaniac of course.

Representation of women in panels would be nice, more visibility would be nice etc.

Not sure what this in reference to. Which panels? You mean advisory ones?

which campaigns have been used to reduce sexual assaults?

Loads of them (many though have been labelled as 'victim blaming'. Here's some recent ones:

cloudatlas · 18-04-2018 06:18PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Ok. Where is this podcast?

(since I've found nothing by him online confirming your post)

Now, you're reaching. I didn't dismiss anything because the writers were female. I simply said it was interesting, and then provided studies which investigated the effects of porn. Also the link you provided was an opinion piece, not the study itself.

Should I be surprised you're not going to argue what I've actually said in the post, but instead deflect?

Link to the podcast here; http://www.secondcaptains.com/2018/03/29/episode-1124-the-belfast-rape-trial-sexual-consent-and-a-toxic-dressingroom-culture/

https://www.nspcc.org.uk/globalassets/documents/research-reports/mdx-nspcc-occ-pornography-report.pdf

1.2.2 Feelings and attitudes towards online pornography
1) Girls are more negative about pornography than boys;
2) Of the stage 2 participants who answered the question, a greater proportion of
boys (53%) reported pornography was realistic than the proportion of girls (39%);

cloudatlas · 18-04-2018 06:30PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

You mean the recent court case where everyone had consensual sex? So.

Sure even if you gave me an example of men who had been found guilty of rape and that had watched porn the next day, so what. Millions of people watch videos of others having sex all the time and don't rape people. It's like correlating murder in movies with real life murders. Millions watch pretty violent films in the cinema all the time but don't kill someone on the way home.

You only think women groping men is a rarity as it's not something men tend to complain about. Hell, most men would encourage it and I bet you if you had a CCTV from any nightclub this weekend you would see far more women getting handsy with men that vice versa. A guy touching a girl's breast in a club is likely to result in a scene, which is understandable, but that's why we tend to think of one as common and the other rare.

Serious sexual assault is different though and I wouldn't suggest that the number of women sexually assaulting men is anywhere near the numbers of men sexually assaulting women but then you don't hear of many millionaires shoplifting either, bar the odd kleptomaniac of course.

Not sure what this in reference to. Which panels? You mean advisory ones?

Yes, I know what the verdict was. I said it was interesting that after being in a taxi with a distressed woman, that his point of reference was a porn video which he shared which was interesting as he would be the age of a millennial so that is his point of reference.

Don't put words in my mouth. I still don't think porn ideation is healthy or being educated from porn it could perhaps cause non consential acts to take place as porn is unrealistic, partnerships involve discussion, communication, consideration and that is rarely seen in porn in my personal opinion. Sex education would help direct youngsters to have fun, safe, sex which they both enjoy yes nothing you've said makes me feel otherwise or your tangent about horror films.

Not sure what your whataboutery points are trying to achieve either, and the attitude of men to sexual assault by a female is reprehensible when a young teacher is in court over sexually assaulting a male student all the comments are 'yoooow I wouldn't say no' etc., so even then the attitude is misplaced.

Laura Whitmore: 'A man put his hand up my skirt in a nightclub and laughed'

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