Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

ohnonotgmail · 10-04-2018 02:39PM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

What are the hard questions for the No Side? The ones they don't seem to have any answer for at all?

A few that come to my mind from posting and reading this thread:

If human life begins at conception-
- Why do you think this in the first place?
- Shouldn't all miscarriages be investigated like any other sudden death?

If a foetus is a potential baby (only difference is time and therefore deserves the same protections) -
- The only thing stopping conception during most sex is contraception, therefore sex is equivalent to a potential baby in the same way. Why aren't you against all contraception?
- Shouldn't we try to stop women from travelling for abortion, even if we might not expect our attempts to stop them to work?

Given that there are still 1000s of abortions yearly for Irish women -
- Is the 8th Amendment really the best way to stop abortions? Why aren't you campaigning to improve it?

Any more?

i'm not sure this is really a hard question for the No side. the likes of spuc, iona and youth defence would be against contraception as well. they are not so keen on sex education in schools either which ironically leads to more unwanted pregnancies.

PopePalpatine · 10-04-2018 03:44PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i'm not sure this is really a hard question for the No side. the likes of spuc, iona and youth defence would be against contraception as well. they are no so keen on sex education in schools either which ironically leads to more unwanted pregnancies.

They're having their fun by punishing "Jezebels", and that's all that matters.

aloyisious · 10-04-2018 07:07PM

Well, for those worried about staying within ethical practices, there's always the method in the link below. Presumably it's the naughty urge factor which upsets their applecart and natural order of life. I wonder if the No camapign includes it in it's literature and online advice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar-based_contraceptive_methods

The Georgetown University system read's like counting the days on an abacus.

swampgas · 10-04-2018 10:35PM

seamus wrote: »

I would also go as far as putting exclusion zones into law which made it illegal to set up protests or advertisements within 100m of any public or private medical business (providing care to patients), or to otherwise interfere with the passage or privacy of patients coming and going.

Thankfully we don't have the same level of hysteria about free speech and it can be regulated as reasonably necessary for the public good.

This has become an issue in Ealing:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/10/ealing-council-vote-buffer-zone-near-marie-stopes-clinic-intimidation-anti-abortion-groups

Hopefully something similar can be implemented here.

robindch · 11-04-2018 12:14AM

aloyisious wrote: »

A spokeperson for one group in the yES side has just said they've been given 170,000 so far in donations. A figure of 1 and a half million has been mentioned for the YES campaign while the Pro-life camapign, Cora Sherlock, said their funding is coming from the grassroots and that they are aware of the foreign funding rules.

Being "aware of the foreign funding rules" and not accepting money from abroad are different things. Figures differ as to what the anti-abortion side have collected from their funding sources, but it seems to be comfortably in excess of one million.

Still, the Together For Yes appears to be collecting in the region of €50,000 per day from around 1,000 donors.

smacl · 11-04-2018 07:32AM

Shame to see that an issue such as this is more heavily influenced by the depth of your pockets than the courage of your moral convictions. Perhaps the government should consider taxing the bejaysus out the advertising spend here and pass the resultant funds onto the likes of the Simon community.

seamus · 11-04-2018 08:27AM

swampgas wrote: »

This has become an issue in Ealing:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/10/ealing-council-vote-buffer-zone-near-marie-stopes-clinic-intimidation-anti-abortion-groups

Hopefully something similar can be implemented here.

Rai noted that of those who responded to oppose the PSPO, only 6.6% actually had an Ealing postcode. In contrast, those who supported it were overwhelmingly local residents.

Same old dirty tricks :rolleyes:

Mark Hamill · 11-04-2018 09:33AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i'm not sure this is really a hard question for the No side. the likes of spuc, iona and youth defence would be against contraception as well. they are not so keen on sex education in schools either which ironically leads to more unwanted pregnancies.

I guess it's not hard for the hardline religious, but it is hard for those not overly religious but who are against abortion because they believe some people will just use it as a form of contraception. I've edited my questions to make that a bit clearer, thanks for the input

.

robindch · 11-04-2018 11:01AM

Waterford Whispers with the story of the hardline US anti-abortion campaigner who just "always wanted to visit Ireland":

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2018/04/10/hardline-us-abortion-campaigner-just-always-wanted-to-visit-ireland/

Waterford Whispers wrote:

ULTRA-conservative Milwaukee native Garret Merser has arrived in Ireland for a once-in-a-lifetime trip that will see the staunch advocate of Ireland’s 8th amendment ‘tour around’ the country until late May.

Stressing that he’s always wanted to visit the emerald isle to retrace his roots and see the sights, Merser is set to take in the Book Of Kells, the Blarney Stone, Newgrange, the Cliffs Of Moher, and if he has time, as many pro-life rallies and demonstrations as his schedule allows.

Starting with a whistle-stop tour of the busiest roundabouts, high-footfall streets and college entrances of the city, the 67-year-old devout Christian has stressed that his arrival in Ireland just as the country prepares for what will most likely be the most bitterly fought referendum in the country’s history is ‘pure coincidence’, and that it’s always been his lifelong dream to fly 7,000 miles to a country he’s never been to, accompanied only by the 167 members of his anti-abortion church group for company.

“I’ll admit your 8th amendment is beautiful, but honestly we just wanted to try this Supermacs that we’ve heard so much about,” said Merser, waving a placard of a dead foetus at a 16-year-old girl.

“So our church decided that they’d bankroll a little holiday for us all, which was super generous of them. An 8-week trip to Ireland, with all expenses paid, and all we have to do is relax and take in the sights, maybe do some protesting here and there, maybe stand on the side of the road and let people know about how sick and perverted some Irish women are, and how their evil plan to murder innocent children in the womb is an affront to God himself. And if we have time, the Titanic exhibition”.

Although Merser himself has no ties to Ireland, many of his group were born here, before being sold to American families by nuns in the 50s and 6os.

aloyisious · 11-04-2018 12:31PM

robindch wrote: »

Being "aware of the foreign funding rules" and not accepting money from abroad are different things. Figures differ as to what the anti-abortion side have collected from their funding sources, but it seems to be comfortably in excess of one million.

Still, the Together For Yes appears to be collecting in the region of €50,000 per day from around 1,000 donors.

If my maths are correct, that's €250 per person per day on average for TFS alone, way withing limits. I assume they are being particularly sincere in their book-keeping recording out or in-country donations.

For donation limits, https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/political-parties-campaigning-and-donations/campaign-spending-and-donations-at-referendums.

Scroll down the side-bar on the left for particular funding rules. Note that there is no requirement for campaigns to keep the commission up to date on current donations as the campaign advances before the referendum, only the rule that a spending return is to be submitted after the referendum. Note the rule on lead campaigns being given higher spending limits than other campaigns on the same side.

aloyisious · 11-04-2018 01:40PM

RTE news included an interview with a Dutch-based group who supply Irish women, via the post, with the pill and abortion advice. The Save the 8th group were asked for a response to the Dutch interview and replied with a quote to the effect that we will not be blackmailed. I reckon that blackmail quote was made in reference to the referendum, the voter and legalization of abortion here, on the lines of "better the devil you can control than the devil you can't" that the Save the 8th group and other anti-abortion campaigners accept legal abortion to a certain level here or we [the Dutch group] will continue mailing the pill here against irish law. However that's just my estimate on what the Save the 8th spokesperson meant.

aloyisious · 12-04-2018 07:21PM

I'm looking at a page on F/B titled Repeal the 8th.... sponsored, with the following wording, [and the link below] Did you know that the Repeal the 8th lobby is not a grassroots movement but a US funded lobby group which is receiving millions of dollars to change our Constitution ? You can read more here...

Does anyone know if DC leaks is connected to Reddit? I'm wondering if what's on the F/B page, and what's in the link, is a false flag operation from the US anti-abortion side of the campaign here. I'm of the opinion, as are sone of the respondent-commentators, that it is a false-flag Op.

.....................................................................................................................................................................................................

DC Leaks is mentioned in the 8th last para as being the revealer of what is contained in the link. I googled DC leaks and it's listed as a website for publicising info of top-ranking officials etc..... There's mention of reddit on the lists the search show's.

Hotblack Desiato · 13-04-2018 12:00AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i'm not sure this is really a hard question for the No side. the likes of spuc, iona and youth defence would be against contraception as well. they are not so keen on sex education in schools either

Unless they're the ones delivering it. 'Pure in Heart' and all that shyte.

Hotblack Desiato · 13-04-2018 12:09AM

aloyisious wrote: »

For donation limits, https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/political-parties-campaigning-and-donations/campaign-spending-and-donations-at-referendums.

Scroll down the side-bar on the left for particular funding rules. Note that there is no requirement for campaigns to keep the commission up to date on current donations as the campaign advances before the referendum, only the rule that a spending return is to be submitted after the referendum. Note the rule on lead campaigns being given higher spending limits than other campaigns on the same side.

This is not the UK

aloyisious wrote: »

Did you know that the Repeal the 8th lobby is not a grassroots movement but a US funded lobby group which is receiving millions of dollars to change our Constitution ? You can read more here...
I'm of the opinion, as are sone of the respondent-commentators, that it is a false-flag Op.

Wtf are you hoping to achieve by posting this shyte???

smokingman · 13-04-2018 01:09AM

Check if you're registered everyone. Seems the latest tactic from the "love both" crowd is to write letters to councils to get people they've identified using Facebook data to get pro-choice people removed as "non-resident"

aloyisious · 13-04-2018 02:01AM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

This is not the UK

My mistake. I meant to reference the irish one.

Wtf are you hoping to achieve by posting this shyte???

Eh,,,,, the answer is simply in my question about the apparent source of the info, and about Reddit. I want to kow as much as I can about it and any possible connection with reddit, re it's credibility. I don't want to rely solely on wikipedia for info. The following sentences are the blurb on the F/B page and I included them to give people an idea of the line the page sponsors were taking.

Did you know that the Repeal the 8th lobby is not a grassroots movement but a US funded lobby group which is receiving millions of dollars to change our Constitution ? You can read more here...

Edit: Looking back on my last, I reckon now that I should have written in the link wording, rather than the link itself, so people would have to key in the link wording to see it's contents if they wanted. One reason, unstated, I posted about the F/B page was to let the people who own the "Repeal The 8th" title know that their property was being co-opted by people with an anti-abortion rights belief with the apparent intent to damage the name and aims of the Repeal The 8th" group. My question on the two sources I asked about stand's, as asking questions is one way of getting info..... I regret if my post irritated you, that was not my intent

Hotblack Desiato · 13-04-2018 03:31PM

You're not endorsing what that site says, but that makes no difference to search engines or to people who just mindlessly click on whatever result pops up.

Reposting their stuff is in a way helping them spread it, unfortunately.

Cabaal · 14-04-2018 03:14PM

Good deed for the the day,
Pro life truck parked up on double yellow lines outside Stephen's Green. Chap inside it with the window down so I brought it to his attention he was illegal parked.

He pretended he didn't hear me and then tried to do that patronising motion with his hand of somebody talking. He then claimed he was waiting for luas to move (nonsense as he'd been there a ages already even before luas arrived) then he changed his excuse to he was waiting for somebody.

I explained it didn't matter who he was waiting for he was still parked illegally and he needs to move us truck, he rolled up the window and continued to do the hand motion.

I advised him I'd be notifying the gardai, funny enough that shifted him.

I don't care what side of the compaign somebody is in, it gives you no right to break the rules of the road.

On the way up to Dublin I also noted 4 No posters on the M9 motorway, yet again breaking law by stopping on the motorway and being stupid enough to take out a ladder. I'll be reporting these later.

PopePalpatine · 14-04-2018 04:20PM

^I'd say John McGuirk is going to whinge about being silenced by the REEEEEgressive Left again, once the trolls report back to him.

lazygal · 14-04-2018 05:40PM

smokingman wrote: »

Check if you're registered everyone. Seems the latest tactic from the "love both" crowd is to write letters to councils to get people they've identified using Facebook data to get pro-choice people removed as "non-resident"

They're also noting addresses on the canvass where people tell them they're voting yes and getting people removed.

Hotblack Desiato · 14-04-2018 05:58PM

Strong whiff of urban legend off that.

A council isn't going to remove a voter on the request of some randomer.

Zerbini Blewitt · 14-04-2018 06:10PM

lazygal wrote: »

They're also noting addresses on the canvass where people tell them they're voting yes and getting people removed.

I've heard that said before. But is it possible?

Assuming it is done by an RFA form submitted by the fraudster - a confirmation letter has to be sent to that address. So that is one safeguard.

Otherwise it must mean that it has to be an inside job (or done with the help of a bent county council employee, with access to the register database).

Have there been any investigations or prosecutions in the past for similar?

lazygal · 14-04-2018 06:21PM

My parents had us removed from the register with a phone call once we moved out. Done and dusted without anyone checking.

Cabaal · 14-04-2018 08:01PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Strong whiff of urban legend off that.

A council isn't going to remove a voter on the request of some randomer.

Somebody Deregistered most of my family a number of years back dispite nobody moving!

recedite · 15-04-2018 11:50AM

Cabaal wrote: »

Somebody Deregistered most of my family a number of years back dispite nobody moving!

But were they actually deregistered, or did a letter go out to the house saying they would be deregistered if they did not reply to it?

Cabaal · 15-04-2018 06:05PM

recedite wrote: »

But were they actually deregistered, or did a letter go out to the house saying they would be deregistered if they did not reply to it?

No letters were received and yes all the family members effected were Deregistered,

Given we had to reregister I think I know what happened

recedite · 15-04-2018 07:16PM

Cabaal wrote: »

No letters were received and yes all the family members effected were Deregistered,

Given we had to reregister I think I know what happened

So did you find out who did it, and why?
I presume it would be an offence under the electoral act, so did you contact the Gardai or press charges?

smacl · 16-04-2018 07:17AM

recedite wrote: »

So did you find out who did it, and why?
I presume it would be an offence under the electoral act, so did you contact the Gardai or press charges?

Also be interested in what happened, guessing a more zealous family member or someone else in the same house. Wouldn't have thought a third party could easily do this, as it would also constitute identity theft / fraud.

recedite · 16-04-2018 09:55AM

Who knows what goes on within family politics.
But I won't believe that any political campaign group would get involved in what would be a criminal act carried out on a widespread scale, unless I see some firm evidence of it first.

aloyisious · 16-04-2018 01:51PM

The Irish Examiner has Finian McGrath, Min for Disabilities, as saying the referendum will be won by 60-to-40 YES majority, in a speech during an Inclusion Ireland event today. Quote: Speaking at an Inclusion Ireland event this morning, the Disabilities Minister said he is now "fairly confident" the abortion referendum will pass, but said there is no room for complacency.
Mr McGrath said: "I believe it will be 60 - 40. I know from my own constituency Dublin Bay North, that would be the kind of view that I am getting. However, he criticised those who have placed referendum posters close to schools.
"The one view that I am getting lately is from younger families about some of the posters up outside schools.

Please note that the minister did not include the name/s, or sides in the debate, of groups behind said postering in his speech.
............................................................

The other party and people represented at the event, had speakers as well. Paddy Connolly, CEO of Inclusion Ireland, said: “The 8th Amendment creates inequalities and for people with a disability it can further impede their sexual health and reproductive rights. Impediments such as inaccessible information, difficulty in travel, poverty, difficulty accessing medical treatment, including maternity services and access to contraception, place greater barriers in front of women with a disability exercising their reproductive rights.

People with disabilities need access to sexual and reproductive health, just like everyone else.

Disability rights campaigner Suzy Byrne says some disabled women are told not to get pregnant.

Ms Byrne said: "The 8th Amendment is about an awful lot more than terminating a pregnancy when it comes to people with disabilities.

"People are told 'don't get pregnant, because there is nothing we can do to help you'. And then contraception may not work in certain circumstances depending on your condition.

"You may not be able to take medication, because it may affect other medication that you have."

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/abortion-will-be-won-60-40-says-minister-837576.html

The group named on posters where I live are from the NO side of the debate. Near my home is the Bray School Project school, with one on a pole by the path between it and the bus stops [approx 15 Metres away] for pupils. The car pick-up/drop-off point used by pupils parents is right between the school and the poster. Two other posters [one on a wooden, possibly ESB, pole] are down the road a bit beside the pedestrian traffic lights used by the Traffic [lollypop] Warden to get the school children from the other school [St Fergal's] in the area across the Killarney Rd safely.

Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

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