Speeding Summons / wrong everything

Fighting Tao · 15-04-2018 12:20PM

tbarry31 wrote: »

I am actually following your advice and advice of others I have contacted both Police stations tried my best to speak to the Garda who served the summons and the garda who's name is on the summons both for some reason are not available to talk. I am trying to solve it that's why I tried to contact both guards involved. I can contact Waterford Garda station all you want but they don't want to deal with me they have already said nothing to do with them. Please rememeber I live over an hour's drive from Cahir Garda station

Tbh, an hour each way plus an hour there is nothing compared to a conviction and the expense, time, stress and hassle in trying to get it overturned. Anytime I had to deal with particular guards, I'd just call the station and ask what shift the guard is on. They always told me and so I arrived when I knew the guard was to be there.

punisher5112 · 15-04-2018 12:23PM

Op you need to contact the station and ask to speak to their seargent.

If you get nowhere here then I suggest writing a letter and send it to the superintendent in that area.

You will find out his details on Garda.ie

tbarry31 · 15-04-2018 12:24PM

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Tbh, an hour each way plus an hour there is nothing compared to a conviction and the expense, time, stress and hassle in trying to get it overturned. Anytime I had to deal with particular guards, I'd just call the station and ask what shift the guard is on. They always told me and so I arrived when I knew the guard was to be there.

I will be honest I can't afford the petrol to go there i'm a stay at home dad that works weekends every penny counts even if it was €5 for petrol. I just contacted Cahir Garda station again and I have to ring the Summons office tomorrow afternoon Garda said it should be resolved then and again he said sorry for wasting my time

Glass fused light · 15-04-2018 12:31PM

STB. wrote: »

This is the flip side of poor attention to detail by AGS and an unnecessary summons issued incorrectly.

The presumably different address that the fixed notices issued to the first time resulted in a no show and a summons has now issued for this person to appear before the courts. Presumably this is were the guesswork has come into play by AGS. They couldnt serve it at the other address as they are not there anymore. So genius work has resulted in same name serving. Poor.

The guard have investigated and gathered details and issues a penalty point notification or summons. If we accept the points or plead guilty in court job done.
But we have the right to appear before a judge who is presented with evidence and the judge makes the decision based on the evidence. Upon conviction there is an appeals process. There are rules and processes to be followed which benefit the citizenry as a whole, eg. in order for us to exercise our right to appear the guards do their best to ensure that we are aware of the charge and turn up in court.

The guard has information This may be information provided by the "offender" eg a name and address which may not be correct. In ths country we don't have to register our residential address to a central registrar held by the authorities. In other countries this is a legal requirement. As we have no obligation to carry ID and while carrying a driving licence is a condition of driving a car the stopping guard is not going to arrest a driver until they provide official picture ID unless there is a suspicion that the person is lying so non-picture ID with a name could be presented. A car reg links to the owner not the driver etc. I can get a ticket and fill out anyone's name as the driver
The guard had looked at the evidence and issued the summons on the basis of the evidence.

STB. wrote: »

Rather than the OP having to appeal this if convicted in absence it could be resolved by getting to the member of AGS who delivered the summons and explaining that they have the wrong guy by simple proof of who you are. I'm sure the guards dont want to waste a citizens time nor their own.

The guard who delivered the summons is not the person who originally had dealings with the offender. They don't have the eye witness / memory of the event, this will be the guard who issued the summons. The simple proof of who you are in this instance is of no benefit, it's proof that your were not the offender dealing with the guard on x date at x place. If we could all plead wrong guy there would never be any convictions. The guard who answered the phone and the guard who delivered the summons would be wasting time by starting a 3way conversation. Dealing with the guard who issued the summons is the best way to resolve the issue.

Glass fused light · 15-04-2018 12:43PM

tbarry31 wrote: »

I will be honest I can't afford the petrol to go there i'm a stay at home dad that works weekends every penny counts even if it was €5 for petrol. I just contacted Cahir Garda station again and I have to ring the Summons office tomorrow afternoon Garda said it should be resolved then and again he said sorry for wasting my time

Many convictions come with a fine so keep following up, ask when the guard will be working next and arrange to phone bang on the time and be available to be put on hold until they are available.

Fighting Tao · 15-04-2018 12:44PM

tbarry31 wrote: »

I will be honest I can't afford the petrol to go there i'm a stay at home dad that works weekends every penny counts even if it was €5 for petrol. I just contacted Cahir Garda station again and I have to ring the Summons office tomorrow afternoon Garda said it should be resolved then and again he said sorry for wasting my time

Best of luck with it. It's an awful inconvenience and shouldn't have happened.

STB. · 15-04-2018 12:56PM

Glass fused light wrote: »

The guard who delivered the summons is not the person who originally had dealings with the offender. They don't have the eye witness / memory of the event, this will be the guard who issued the summons. The simple proof of who you are in this instance is of no benefit, it's proof that your were not the offender dealing with the guard on x date at x place. If we could all plead wrong guy there would never be any convictions. The guard who answered the phone and the guard who delivered the summons would be wasting time by starting a 3way conversation. Dealing with the guard who issued the summons is the best way to resolve the issue.

The bolded part. Clearly that is the case as it happened in another county according to the OP.

The ISSUE here is that the member of AGS who delivered the summons has delivered it to the wrong address (which should have been 2 miles up the road according to the OP).

The simple proof is perfectly acceptable. The last time I checked the Motor Tax database was used as the source for this material. If the OP has a drivers licence and Tax etc, none of his details are going to match !

I see the OP is making headway, but the personal serving of the summons has been improperly served on the mother of the wrong person! Said local AGS member who acted as server needs to play a part in undoing of what he has set in train.

tbarry31 · 15-04-2018 12:59PM

Glass fused light wrote: »

Many convictions come with a fine so keep following up, ask when the guard will be working next and arrange to phone bang on the time and be available to be put on hold until they are available.

the guard is only meant to be back the day before the court case. I have to contact the person in Cahir who deals with summons and I have been told that it should be dealt with there and then by phone they said was fine.

I contacted my local Garda station just a few mins back the garda who issued the summons isn't available for 3-4 working days. I asked why was it dropped to my mam's house and the guards answer was i " if something like this happens and we can't find the person or the house then they search a register Social Welfare and find the name and the the last know address from that " I then asked so you then just choose somebody with the same name at random Answer was YES

STB. · 15-04-2018 01:03PM

tbarry31 wrote: »

I contacted my local Garda station just a few mins back the garda who issued the summons isn't available for 3-4 working days. I asked why was it dropped to my mam's house and the guards answer was i " if something like this happens and we can't find the person or the house then they search a register Social Welfare and find the name and the the last know address from that " I then asked so you then just choose somebody with the same name at random Answer was YES

They dont they use the data from revenue/motor tax db.

Get onto the Seargant at that station and tell them what you are dealing with. This is totally unacceptable.

The real person who has not been served here doesnt even know whats going on and is due in court very soon!

tbarry31 · 15-04-2018 01:26PM

STB. wrote: »

They dont they use the data from revenue/motor tax db.

Get onto the Seargant at that station and tell them what you are dealing with. This is totally unacceptable.

The real person who has not been served here doesnt even know whats going on and is due in court very soon!

I can only tell you what the Garda told me. I would say they will find it hard to find the person because the address on the summons doesn't exist there is a house there but the address on the summons is 27 A but 27 A doesn't exist only 27 I went and had a look

STB. · 15-04-2018 02:12PM

tbarry31 wrote: »

I can only tell you what the Garda told me. I would say they will find it hard to find the person because the address on the summons doesn't exist there is a house there but the address on the summons is 27 A but 27 A doesn't exist only 27 I went and had a look

Do you live at 27 or 27A ?

Is this where the summons was delivered ?

dr.fuzzenstein · 15-04-2018 02:15PM

tbarry31 wrote: »

I tried my best to contact the Garda in question seems to be unavailable to talk and now I have been told he won't be around all next week. I don't exactly know what I was doing a year back so that would be hard to prove where I was.

As I said earlier, my wife was accused of driving off from a petrol station.
We knew she wasn't at this particular town that day, but we had no idea where we were on that day.
So we searched Facebook, Facebook Messenger, WhatsApp, Boards, email, SMS and went through the call history on our phones.
From that we managed to reconstruct that on the day in question we were assembling a cage for the budgies, because my wife had taken pictures and sent them via WhatsApp.
Also check if google has a location history for you, the one time it's useful to be spied on nonstop.
That way you should be able to reconstruct your whereabouts.

Glass fused light · 15-04-2018 02:54PM

tbarry31 wrote: »

the guard is only meant to be back the day before the court case. I have to contact the person in Cahir who deals with summons and I have been told that it should be dealt with there and then by phone they said was fine.

I contacted my local Garda station just a few mins back the garda who issued the summons isn't available for 3-4 working days. I asked why was it dropped to my mam's house and the guards answer was i " if something like this happens and we cFan't find the person or the house then they search a register Social Welfare and find the name and the the last know address from that " I then asked so you then just choose somebody with the same name at random Answer was YES

I would focus on Cahir as this is the station where the summons was issued from, and they should be managing the workflow of their staff.
Call back and as them what the procedure is for dealing with this. If you were asked to speaking to the 'person who deals with the summons' and this is not the guard who is away look to speak directly with that person.

Get the contact details of who you are speaking with and their job title (rank). Then focus on getting information on the proceedure not on the issue or resolving the issue.

Eg
First you needed to speak to summonsing guard x, as they are not available speak to person y eg (the Sargent), who has the authority to action a resolution and will issue you with a confirmation by x date, if the Sargent is not available, the next person you need to speak to is ....
First get the job title
Once you have that look for contact names, and who does their job if not available.
Then look their contact details eg phone nos, when they are on shift etc.
Polite and calm questions focused on what you have to do and who is the next point of contact.

Only once you understand the process do you focus on the resolution of the problem.

At that stage ask to be transferred to the person who can action a resolution in the process and if they are not available look for the next person. if they are all not available ask when in the next day or two they would be available as you will call back. Also ask the speaker what action they will take ( what the process is) to let the person know that you need to contact them and that you intend to contact them and what information the speker will be provided and if you need to provide any information to the speaker to pass along.

Phone back on time and make it clear you will stay on hold or can be transferred to the next person on your list.

Once you get in contact with the person who can action a resolution focus on the outcome. Don't become side tracked on why the summons was issued in error, it done and you can't change that.

IMO The issue is that the guard had made a mistake in identity.
That a summons was issued is a consequence of the mistake.
That you have to appear in court on x date is a consequence of the mistake.
But you don't care how or why the mistake happened, you want a resolution which hopefully does not end up with you in court.

The outcome you want is that person who can action the resolutuon accepts and agees that the guard's identification was made in error and that the summons will be withdrawn on that basis.

However it is possible that you cant get a resolution until the guard is back on duty and they may not be back on the scheduled day.

You may have to turn up to court on the day. You could try to drop down to your local court to get a idea of what goes on. Also focus on getting as much information as possible together to prove that it was not you. Get any information from the guard possible which is not on the summons, eg why your name was linked to the offence and the car was it via a driving licence no or was it provided by the driver on the day or via the returned form, plus the original address the ticket was sent to etc Check your phone and bank account and domestic calanders plus any social media for any reminders of what you were doing on the day in question(edit ^^dr.fuzzensstien said). On the day try to contact the guard before the case, stand where you can hear and see what is going on and have a read of some of the previous postings on what to expect. Plus if it goes to court although it would be costly balance the cost of a solicitor against the cost of higher insurance fees. Good luck

Edit you are innocent until proven guilty so the guard has to prove it was you, so its not your car (presummimg you were not named as a driver by the registered owner), not your home address ( which is correct on your driving licence? ) on the original ticket or the the summons its visual ID only

FishOnABike · 15-04-2018 03:20PM

If despite your best efforts to have the matter resolved before it ends up in court don't be shy about asking for costs to be awarded if you do end up having to go to court. While it might be unusual to look for costs in the circumstances you should not be out of pocket because of someone else's error and the lack of ability of the system to correct that error.

4ensic15 · 15-04-2018 04:01PM

Glass fused light wrote: »

I would focus on Cahir as this is the station where the summons was issued from, and they should be managing the workflow of their staff.
Call back and as them what the procedure is for dealing with this. If you were asked to speaking to the 'person who deals with the summons' and this is not the guard who is away look to speak directly with that person.

Get the contact details of who you are speaking with and their job title (rank). Then focus on getting information on the proceedure not on the issue or resolving the issue.

Eg
First you needed to speak to summonsing guard x, as they are not available speak to person y eg (the Sargent), who has the authority to action a resolution and will issue you with a confirmation by x date, if the Sargent is not available, the next person you need to speak to is ....
First get the job title
Once you have that look for contact names, and who does their job if not available.
Then look their contact details eg phone nos, when they are on shift etc.
Polite and calm questions focused on what you have to do and who is the next point of contact.

Only once you understand the process do you focus on the resolution of the problem.

At that stage ask to be transferred to the person who can action a resolution in the process and if they are not available look for the next person. if they are all not available ask when in the next day or two they would be available as you will call back. Also ask the speaker what action they will take ( what the process is) to let the person know that you need to contact them and that you intend to contact them and what information the speker will be provided and if you need to provide any information to the speaker to pass along.

Phone back on time and make it clear you will stay on hold or can be transferred to the next person on your list.

Once you get in contact with the person who can action a resolution focus on the outcome. Don't become side tracked on why the summons was issued in error, it done and you can't change that.

IMO The issue is that the guard had made a mistake in identity.
That a summons was issued is a consequence of the mistake.
That you have to appear in court on x date is a consequence of the mistake.
But you don't care how or why the mistake happened, you want a resolution which hopefully does not end up with you in court.

The outcome you want is that person who can action the resolutuon accepts and agees that the guard's identification was made in error and that the summons will be withdrawn on that basis.

However it is possible that you cant get a resolution until the guard is back on duty and they may not be back on the scheduled day.

You may have to turn up to court on the day. You could try to drop down to your local court to get a idea of what goes on. Also focus on getting as much information as possible together to prove that it was not you. Get any information from the guard possible which is not on the summons, eg why your name was linked to the offence and the car was it via a driving licence no or was it provided by the driver on the day or via the returned form, plus the original address the ticket was sent to etc Check your phone and bank account and domestic calanders plus any social media for any reminders of what you were doing on the day in question(edit ^^dr.fuzzensstien said). On the day try to contact the guard before the case, stand where you can hear and see what is going on and have a read of some of the previous postings on what to expect. Plus if it goes to court although it would be costly balance the cost of a solicitor against the cost of higher insurance fees. Good luck

Edit you are innocent until proven guilty so the guard has to prove it was you, so its not your car (presummimg you were not named as a driver by the registered owner), not your home address ( which is correct on your driving licence? ) on the original ticket or the the summons its visual ID only

Do you write fiction? A garda station is noit the place for a trial. A courtroom is. A guard doesn't issue a summons. A guard applies for a summons to be issued.
It is unusual for a summmons to be served personlly in a minor road traffic case. It may have been that a summons was issued and when there was no appearance by anybody in court, the judge directed personal service. The guards just want to get it served, on somebody, anybody and get rid of the overhanging summons.

tbarry31 · 15-04-2018 04:04PM

STB. wrote: »

Do you live at 27 or 27A ?

Is this where the summons was delivered ?

I do not live there and I don't know who does. The summons was delivered my mams house where I haven't lived for over 16 years

Fred Swanson · 15-04-2018 04:10PM

This post has been deleted.

Glass fused light · 15-04-2018 04:12PM

4ensic15 wrote: »

Do you write fiction? A garda station is noit the place for a trial. A courtroom is. A guard doesn't issue a summons. A guard applies for a summons to be issued.
It is unusual for a summmons to be served personlly in a minor road traffic case. It may have been that a summons was issued and when there was no appearance by anybody in court, the judge directed personal service. The guards just want to get it served, on somebody, anybody and get rid of the overhanging summons.

Sorry I kind of assumed that the summons is based on a process where someone makes a complaint about a breach of a law ... my bad ...

STB. · 15-04-2018 04:24PM

tbarry31 wrote: »

I do not live there and I don't know who does. The summons was delivered my mams house where I haven't lived for over 16 years

This is what you tell AGS

I knew the answer. So did you.

The summons was delivered to the wrong address.

Me, I would return it to the Sarge on duty and tell them not be to putting the heart cross ways in my folks.

n!ghtmancometh · 15-04-2018 04:39PM

If you can't contact the guard who issued the summons, then go to the station and ask to speak to whoever the Sgt or inspector on duty is and explain the situation. If you get no joy out of that, consult a solicitor and follow their advice.

You sound like you would meet the means threshold for legal aid going by your earlier posts about being a stay at home dad, so doubt you would have to worry about the fee.

4ensic15 · 15-04-2018 04:47PM

Glass fused light wrote: »

Sorry I kind of assumed that the summons is based on a process where someone makes a complaint about a breach of a law ... my bad ...

Hasn't been that way since the Courts No 3 Act of 1986.

Fred Swanson · 15-04-2018 04:48PM

This post has been deleted.

Sleeper12 · 15-04-2018 05:08PM

STB. wrote:

This is what you tell AGS

OP has already told the Gardai that he has the summons. They gave him information on the case because he got in touch with them and told them that he has the summons.

Tigger · 15-04-2018 05:19PM

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

While I gather you would be more informed than me I’m sure that I’ve herd of a particular person who received a settlement from ags for false arrest.

wexie · 15-04-2018 05:24PM

Tigger wrote: »

While I gather you would be more informed than me I’m sure that I’ve herd of a particular person who received a settlement from ags for false arrest.

but that's not the same as costs though.

lawred2 · 15-04-2018 05:46PM

STB. wrote: »

This is the flip side of poor attention to detail by AGS and an unnecessary summons issued incorrectly.

The presumably different address that the fixed notices issued to the first time resulted in a no show and a summons has now issued for this person to appear before the courts. Presumably this is were the guesswork has come into play by AGS. They couldnt serve it at the other address as they are not there anymore. So genius work has resulted in same name serving. Poor.

Rather than the OP having to appeal this if convicted in absence it could be resolved by getting to the member of AGS who delivered the summons and explaining that they have the wrong guy by simple proof of who you are. I'm sure the guards dont want to waste a citizens time nor their own.

Surely proving 'who' you are won't cut it... You will have to show that you were elsewhere at the time of the incident surely?

Proving who you are is just proving that you have the same name as was given to the guard at the time of the incident. How will that help?

4ensic15 · 15-04-2018 06:42PM

Tigger wrote: »

While I gather you would be more informed than me I’m sure that I’ve herd of a particular person who received a settlement from ags for false arrest.

That is damages. The o/p has not been arrested, yet!

n!ghtmancometh · 15-04-2018 09:11PM

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I've personally seen it given for people contesting having no lights on a bike or parking on double yellow lines. I've also seen defendants who initially had their minor traffic matters struck out, have their case put back to another date because solicitor argued for legal aid! Depends on mood of whatever judge is sitting.

4ensic15 · 15-04-2018 10:45PM

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

I've personally seen it given for people contesting having no lights on a bike or parking on double yellow lines. I've also seen defendants who initially had their minor traffic matters struck out, have their case put back to another date because solicitor argued for legal aid! Depends on mood of whatever judge is sitting.

It is usually in connection with some other charge such as failure to appear on a previous occasion.

Tigger · 15-04-2018 10:46PM

wexie wrote: »

but that's not the same as costs though.

Ok
I understand

Speeding Summons / wrong everything

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