Belfast rape trial discussion thread II

tretorn · 12-04-2018 11:43pm

Faugheen wrote: »

So you're going on semantics now?

Her blood was on his sheets. Fact.

Harrison said in court that he saw she was upset at the top of the stairs. Fact.

Harrison told Blane McIlroy that she was in hysterics.

Whether they knew or not is actually irrelevant. They still treated a woman like **** and they boasted about treating said woman like ****.

Luckily the jury had access to all the evidence and they werent biased so based their facts on evidence and not on twitter snippets.

Thank God for the Rule Of law and the right to a fair trial.

FrancieBrady · 12-04-2018 11:46pm

Faugheen wrote: »

So you're going on semantics now?

Her blood was on his sheets. Fact.

Harrison said in court that he saw she was upset at the top of the stairs. Fact.

Harrison told Blane McIlroy that she was in hysterics.

Whether they knew or not is actually irrelevant. They still treated a woman like **** and they boasted about treating said woman like ****.

Semantics?

It was complete and utter sensationalist nonsense and you know it.

The jury clearly did not think she was in hysterics because she was raped. End of. Your opinion is of no relevance.

They boasted about having a good time. Not one of them boasted about treating anyone like ****.

Your or Grayson's moral indignation will not make it so.

CommandoJack · 12-04-2018 11:46pm

Looks like the IRFU have made their decision and will announce on Saturday. Not sure if that means Ulster's side of things is still ongoing or not.
More details in a thread on Leinsterfans.
Glad it's not going to be drawn out for many more weeks at least.

meeeeh · 12-04-2018 11:47pm

BBDBB wrote: »

hang on, "not entitled"??

The relationship of "adoration" of fans is a two way street

The player (of most professional sports) raises his or her arms aloft in triumph at some victory or other and the crowd cheers and applauds in response. (Tennis, Golf, Football, Rugby, GAA, etc etc. The more significant the moment the more the crowd applaud and cheer. The player raises their game at that expectation. Its symbiotic, they feed off each other

Its entirely an earned adulation, if the player doesnt perform, misses a chance, fails to prevent a score, the crowd let them know. This is true of every player in every sports team

If a sportsperson is on the field and makes a howling error the crowd are more than capable and willing to express their disappointment and dissatisfaction with boos and shouts. They do at every sporting venue wherever spectators gather

Let the public decide whether they are willing to let PJ and SO back into the Ulster and Ireland shirts by playing them and see if they are willing to pay to watch them

If gates are down it shows that people aren't comfortable with them representing their province or country. If the crowd are on their back regarding their off field behaviour they will let them know.

If you want your opportunity to shout your disapproval, then an Ulster game from the terraces is a perfect place for you to do so

What do you suggest? A fight to the bitter end and then see which sides come on top.

Anyway if they had any chance (and I don't think they did), a rape list in Cork school just put an end to it. The publicity would be completely damaging. Weather tgey like it or not tgey are the poster boys for attitude that needs to be challenged and eradicated.

FrancieBrady · 12-04-2018 11:48pm

Faugheen wrote: »

I'm getting my facts from the evidence and testimonies that were heard in court.

Do you think I just plucked them out of my hole or something?

Yes, you did. As I pointed out.

But accurate and factual detail and the importance of it is 'semantics' now. :rolleyes:

Muahahaha · 12-04-2018 11:48pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Or you make an honest effort to spell out your point to them and they reply with:

'...but they were found not guilty.'

Everyone else has moved past the verdict except for Jackson and Oldings supporters.

Spot on. Even in the last thread the poll at the top had over 70% of people accepting the jury verdict (when the dont knows were removed). Which means the vast, vast majority of posters on here have accepted the verdict. But then on the other hand two polls show us 66% of the Irish public dont want them in an Irish jersey again. So it is a perfectly normal position to believe them to be not guility but also to believe them as not being worthy of playing for Ireland because of the way they treated that young girl and conducted themselves over the Whatsapp texts.

Which leads to the next refrain which was going on all last week "....but the Whatsapp messages were private....if people saw everyones whatapp texts we would all be guilty...."
eh no, for one what is seen cannot be unseen. But more importantly I havent ever talked about women in that manner, never have, never will. Ive certainly talked to mates about one night stands Ive had with women but I have never felt the urge to degrade them by calling them sluts. And I am tired of posters on here putting up a defence for Jackson and Olding on the Whatsapp that "sure we all do it". No, no we do not, only a small minority of boys who have yet to grow up go around calling women brassers, sluts whilst also asking each other "why are we all such legends".

Faugheen · 12-04-2018 11:49pm

tretorn wrote: »

Luckily the jury had access to all the evidence and they werent biased so based their facts on evidence and not on twitter snippets.

Thank God for the Rule Of law and the right to a fair trial.

What has this got to do with the verdict?

I've said to you and everyone else umpteen times that their verdict is the right one based on the evidence and reasonable doubt.

However, it does not mean that there was no blood of hers on his bed, that Rory Harrison didn't say she was upset, or that they didn't boast about being top shaggers and precious secrets.

Everything I have said was presented as evidence. A 'not guilty' verdict doesn't mean the evidence suddenly no longer exists when it comes to analysing their behaviour that night.

Jesus Christ it's actually f*cking painful having to spell it out to everyone.

I made a point that people just go back to the verdict as a way of shutting the conversation down.

We're not talking about the verdict anymore. We're talking about their behaviour of which Paddy Jackson said the reaction to was 'fully justified'.

tretorn · 12-04-2018 11:50pm

Faugheen wrote: »

I'm getting my facts from the evidence and testimonies that were heard in court.

Do you think I just plucked them out of my hole or something?

You are getting your "facts" from the testimony of a witness who the jury didnt believe, her evidence didnt stack up and you cant jail people unless their guilt is established beyond reasonable doubt.

If we didnt have a court of law anyone can make up wild allegations and then its he said, she said.

Luckily for PJ and Olding there was an independent witness who was prepared to say what she saw.

I feel very sorry for Dara F, she went out for a nights fun, didnt abuse alcohol and didnt head off to anyones bedroom. She didnt even know the woman who made the allegation and now her life has been completely upset by a mess someone else created. She has been very dignified and she doesnt deserve the abuse being heaped on her, she did her civic duty and told the truth, we need more fine young women like Dara Florence.

It should have been Dara Florence who got the praise from the PPS after the court case.

NAGDEFI · 12-04-2018 11:50pm

Once you post on this topic it's very difficult to get off..dare i say a 'merry go round'.

NAGDEFI · 12-04-2018 11:51pm

tretorn wrote: »

You are getting your "facts" from the testimony of a witness who the jury didnt believe, her evidence didnt stack up and you cant jail people unless their guilt is established beyond reasonable doubt.

If we didnt have a court of law anyone can make up wild allegations and then its he said, she said.

Luckily for PJ and Olding there was an independent witness who was prepared to say what she saw.

I feel very sorry for Dara F, she went out for a nights fun, didnt abuse alcohol and didnt head off to anyones bedroom. She didnt even know the woman who made the allegation and now her life has been completely upset by a mess someone else created. She has been very dignified and she doesnt deserve the abuse being heaped on her, she did her civic duty and told the truth, we need more fine young women like Dara Florence.

It should have been Dara Florence who got the praise from the PPS after the court case.

A real modern day Florence Nightingale:D

12-04-2018 11:52pm

jesus christ above

have none of ye anything for doing at all

upandcumming · 12-04-2018 11:53pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

I think posters on here who do not wish to see them play for Ireland again have been very measured in this discussion. It only seem to be Jacksons and Oldings supporters who are engaging in the name calling on this thread. It reflects badly on them as name calling is the first refuge of someone who feels they are losing an argument. It is also reflective of the fact they cannot see (or dont want to see) any problems whatsoever with Jackson and Olding pulling on the Irish jersey again. I suppose if you are willing to ignore the players dreadful behaviour it shouldnt be all that surprising that you would lower the tone of the debate to childish name calling and pigeon holing. It is the stuff you would expect in a school yard to be perfectly honest.

Both sides of the discussion have performed poorly and there has been alot of posts way off the mark, but neither side have been 'measured'. Just take a look at the first thread on this topic.

While I am firmly in the 'Jacksons and Oldings supporters' camp, I feel that there is an overreaction to the messages. That is not to say I do not think they are disrespectful, they are disrespectful. Just because I don't agree with you or the posters on the other side of the discussion, does not mean I cannot or don't want to see the problems with the messages.

Posts like this really doesn't do anything to reinforce your 'measured' description.

FrancieBrady · 12-04-2018 11:53pm

Faugheen wrote: »

What has this got to do with the verdict?

I've said to you and everyone else umpteen times that their verdict is the right one based on the evidence and reasonable doubt.

However, it does not mean that there was no blood of hers on his bed, that Rory Harrison didn't say she was upset, or that they didn't boast about being top shaggers and precious secrets.

Everything I have said was presented as evidence. A 'not guilty' verdict doesn't mean the evidence suddenly no longer exists when it comes to analysing their behaviour that night.

Jesus Christ it's actually f*cking painful having to spell it out to everyone.

I made a point that people just go back to the verdict as a way of shutting the conversation down.

We're not talking about the verdict anymore. We're talking about their behaviour of which Paddy Jackson said the reaction to was 'fully justified'.

Not the 'reaction' based on downright sensationalist lies.

You were going to show us back up for what Grayson said? Whenever you find it in the testimony and evidence, post it up.

Particularly interested in the Whasapp messages where they 'joked' about the bed 'covered in her blood' and her 'running away crying'.

Because all I seen were messages about a night of fun and baosting about sexual prowess.

tretorn · 12-04-2018 11:54pm

NAGDEFI wrote: »

A real modern day Florence Nightingale:D

Dara didnt get to keep her anonymity or get to give evidence behind a screen either.

As I said a very brave woman, her parents must be very proud of her.

BBDBB · 12-04-2018 11:54pm

Mrsmum wrote: »

Imo playing for your country is an enormous honour which few people achieve and the supporters, indeed the whole country look on their team with such pride. Because I think you posted quite a reasonable post I am genuinely interested in whether you would have zero problem with them putting on the sacred green jersey & playing for Ireland considering you say their behaviour was unacceptable ? If you yourself have no problem but accept a substantial number of people are repelled by them, how do we let them back without giving the two fingers to those people, that critical mass of people, whose pride in the whole team would be sullied by their presence. How do we let them back without condoning their disgusting behaviours and attitude to women. Because it's kinda now at the point where as you said yourself "we each must defend the line of what we deem as acceptable",

Thankyou for playing the post rather than the poster.
As a way to express my thoughts Im choosing to use the first party vernacular on occasion

For me, they have already paid a heavy price for the crime which has now boiled down to a very disrespectful attitude towards the girl in question played mainly in texts now given the Not guilty verdict

That price so far has been
Suspension - lets not gloss over that with a word. That means you get up every morning and live the life of a sportsman (your dream job) with the sacrifices of diet and training regimen but without the comradeship of team mates and without the satisfaction of a match to play at the weekend

Relationships - it may sound a cliche, but think of how you deal with that in your own head, the disappointment in yourself and your parents who have sacrificed so much for your career. Could you look at your dad and mum in the eye again? Maybe its just me, but living with the shame I would feel at their disapproval would be a horrible way to exist

Its also significant enough to be a significant detriment to many future relationships I may have

Family- outside of whatever Im going through as a "potential rapist" I cant imagine what anguish my parents and siblings are going through for the initial accusation, preparation for trial, duration of trial and now the aftermath. I cant speak for anyone else, but it would kill my mother and my father would never speak to me again I predict. Maybe the parents of these four are more forgiving and maybe Im doing the unconditional love my parents have for me a disservice. But that just makes the anguish Im putting them through even worse

Future - a future thats uncertain, always stressful, particularly when I have no influence over it. Everyone I meet, new team mates at a new club, new supporters, coaches, club owners, opposition teams and their supporters will now be viewing me differently. Maybe they'll vocalise it or maybe its just the doubt in my head

With all that as punishment so far my view is that they have been punnished more than enough for some disrespectful messages and behaviour.

I think to satisfy demands of those who demand even more is that the horror of the above needs to be communicated again and again. Its all very well shouting and demanding blood, but there has to come a time when enough is enough. You cant punish these players for ever. There has to be a reasonable solution, a point where you say ok, the 'punishment' now fits the 'crime'

Id encapsulate teh two years endured as time already served...and more. For a Not Guilty verdict that took less than 4 hours? Lets put the placards down for a moment and be reasonable.
5 lives have been disrupted? No, many many more lives have been put on hold and turned upside down by these events. Id be astonished if the lessons needs to be repeated in the future to these individuals. Theres more than enough blood on the walls (metaphorically), why continue to hammer people into the ground, ruining careers, ruining lives. Its all got a bit vindictive for my taste.

Faugheen · 12-04-2018 11:54pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Semantics?

It was complete and utter sensationalist nonsense and you know it.

The jury clearly did not think she was in hysterics because she was raped. End of. Your opinion is of no relevance.

They boasted about having a good time. Not one of them boasted about treating anyone like ****.

Your or Grayson's moral indignation will not make it so.

Who mentioned the word 'rape'?

Their behaviour left her upset, which is acknowledged by three of the four defendants. This. Is. Fact.

Again you're going back to the jury. I'm not talking about the verdict. I'm talking about he facts presented to this case which raise arguments over whether these two should be allowed play for Ireland again.

Her state leaving that house is undeniable whether you think a rape happened or not.

NAGDEFI · 12-04-2018 11:55pm

upandcumming wrote: »

Both sides of the discussion have performed poorly and there has been alot of posts way off the mark, but neither side have been 'measured'. Just take a look at the first thread on this topic.

While I am firmly in the 'Jacksons and Oldings supporters' camp, I feel that there is an overreaction to the messages. That is not to say I do not think they are disrespectful, they are disrespectful. Just because I don't agree with you or the posters on the other side of the discussion, does not mean I cannot or don't want to see the problems with the messages.

Posts like this really doesn't do anything to reinforce your 'measured' description.

Who appointed you as adjudicator of the debate tonight?!!

NAGDEFI · 12-04-2018 11:56pm

upandcumming wrote: »

Both sides of the discussion have performed poorly and there has been alot of posts way off the mark, but neither side have been 'measured'. Just take a look at the first thread on this topic.

While I am firmly in the 'Jacksons and Oldings supporters' camp, I feel that there is an overreaction to the messages. That is not to say I do not think they are disrespectful, they are disrespectful. Just because I don't agree with you or the posters on the other side of the discussion, does not mean I cannot or don't want to see the problems with the messages.

Posts like this really doesn't do anything to reinforce your 'measured' description.

I find it hard to take a lecture on debating from a lad called 'upandcumming':D

upandcumming · 12-04-2018 11:57pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Who mentioned the word 'rape'?

Their behaviour left her upset, which is acknowledged by three of the four defendants. This. Is. Fact.

Her state leaving that house is undeniable whether you think a rape happened or not.

It is undeniable. But didn't Jackson and Olding not find this out until way after the messages, that they didn't actually send?

FrancieBrady · 12-04-2018 11:57pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Who mentioned the word 'rape'?

Their behaviour left her upset, which is acknowledged by three of the four defendants. This. Is. Fact.

Again you're going back to the jury. I'm not talking about the verdict. I'm talking about he facts presented to this case which raise arguments over whether these two should be allowed play for Ireland again.

Her state leaving that house is undeniable whether you think a rape happened or not.

And nobody ever left a drunken party upset? :rolleyes:

We have nothing that proves why she was upset. She said it was because she was raped.
She didn't convince the jury of that.

NAGDEFI · 12-04-2018 11:57pm

tretorn wrote: »

Dara didnt get to keep her anonymity or get to give evidence behind a screen either.

As I said a very brave woman, her parents must be very proud of her.

If she told the truth she's a brave woman. And i have no reason to doubt her.

NAGDEFI · 12-04-2018 11:58pm

Wrongway1985 wrote: »

The definition of teenager is literally a person between 13-19 despite what a young cluainmhuire thought

Maybe he was in Cluainmhuire that year:D

Faugheen · 13-04-2018 12:00am

tretorn wrote: »

You are getting your "facts" from the testimony of a witness who the jury didnt believe, her evidence didnt stack up and you cant jail people unless their guilt is established beyond reasonable doubt.

Hold on a second there horse.

I'm getting the blood from the photographs of Jackson's bed that were shown to the jury (the ones that were airbrushed).

I'm getting the fact that she was upset from the acknowledgements of 3 of the 4 defendants (one of which said so in open court).

I'm getting the boasting of their legendary night from WhatsApp messages which were also revealed in court.

Tell me, where have I mentioned the complainant? And where have I insinuated that the jury got the verdict wrong?

Stop ignoring these points and debate like an adult, because you constantly blithering on about the same point while refusing to answer mine is just tiresome at this stage.

upandcumming · 13-04-2018 12:01am

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Who appointed you as adjudicator of the debate tonight?!!

I'm not much of an adjudicator as I support a particular side.

NAGDEFI wrote: »

I find it hard to take a lecture on debating from a lad called 'upandcumming':D

No lecture, simply a response to that poster's commentary on the debate. I also gave my thoughts on the messages and the reaction to them.

Play the ball, not the man!

:D

BBDBB · 13-04-2018 12:02am

meeeeh wrote: »

What do you suggest? A fight to the bitter end and then see which sides come on top.

Anyway if they had any chance (and I don't think they did), a rape list in Cork school just put an end to it. The publicity would be completely damaging. Weather tgey like it or not tgey are the poster boys for attitude that needs to be challenged and eradicated.

no

since you ask
I suggest you re-read the post and digest it and the post it was replying to before responding

Id also suggest you go back to post number 168 of this thread - Id accept the adoration of the crowd for a successful prediction but Im 6 hours late :rolleyes:

Faugheen · 13-04-2018 12:02am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And nobody ever left a drunken party upset? :rolleyes:

We have nothing that proves why she was upset. She said it was because she was raped.
She didn't convince the jury of that.

It doesn't matter why she was upset.

Guilty or not guilty. We have it on record from three of the four defendants that it's accepted she was upset. Even if the encounter was consensual, she was still treated like **** and was upset by how the night panned out.

What more do you f*cking want?

NAGDEFI · 13-04-2018 12:05am

There's talk of a film being made next year.

A few working titles but 2 on the shortlist.

'What We Did Last Summer' or 'Who We Did Last Summer'.

Ulster Rugby are thinking of making a documentary 'Who We Are Is How We Play- No Wonder We Win Nothing'.

NAGDEFI · 13-04-2018 12:06am

upandcumming wrote: »

I'm not much of an adjudicator as I support a particular side.

No lecture, simply a response to that poster's commentary on the debate. I also gave my thoughts on the messages and the reaction to them.

Play the ball, not the man! :D

In fairness it's hard not to play the man in this instance! Ah fair enough upandcumming i think tonight you truly have arrived:D:D

FrancieBrady · 13-04-2018 12:07am

Faugheen wrote: »

It doesn't matter why she was upset.

Guilty or not guilty. We have it on record from three of the four defendants that it's accepted she was upset. Even if the encounter was consensual, she was still treated like **** and was upset by how the night panned out.

What more do you f*cking want?

I want you to admit that Grayson was being a sensationalist dangerous fool with the facts for a start.

She was upset, many people are leaving drunken parties and it does not necessarily mean because she was treated like ****.

BBDBB · 13-04-2018 12:07am

Faugheen wrote: »

It doesn't matter why she was upset.

Guilty or not guilty. We have it on record from three of the four defendants that it's accepted she was upset. Even if the encounter was consensual, she was still treated like **** and was upset by how the night panned out.

What more do you f*cking want?

you ever been the sober one at the party? Designated driver perhaps? watched the behaviour around you and despaired?

People are complete arseholes when they are drunk, men and women

it really doesnt take much (or anything in some cases) for someone to be upset when they've been drinking

Belfast rape trial discussion thread II

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