Jordan Peterson interview on C4

Sand · 03-04-2018 7:31pm

aidoh wrote: »

Douglas Murray is a strange one, whose popularity seems to be founded in a deep-seated fear of Islam amongst Europeans since the mass immigration crisis began (as far as I see it anyway).

Well that and the suicide bombings and truck attacks on pedestrians, armed soldiers patrolling the streets, rape gangs in most moderately sized UK towns and indigenous British becoming a minority in their own capital and several other towns. None of this was in the brochure. People didn't suddenly awake one night gripped with an inexplicable terror.

Douglas Murray's popularity (which is limited) is that he is part of the small group who is speaking for and to British people who wonder when they were asked to consent to any of this. Only Douglas Murray can comment as to if the fiscal rewards of speaking for these people outweighs the opprobrium heaped on him for doing so.

I've just become quite suspicious of people like Douglas Murray, Stefan Molyneux, Ben Shapiro, Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson, Sargon of Akkad, Paul Joseph Watson, Stephen Crowder, Gavin McInnes etc. recently.

I wouldn't be more than loosely familiar with most of those people to be honest, but I'd agree there is certainly money to be made in 'anti-SJW' media. I think you're doing a severe disservice to Murray (and JP to be fair) by classing him alongside the likes of Sargon of Akkad though.

Brian? · 03-04-2018 8:24pm

cantdecide wrote: »

Explain why boys and young men in the West are doing increasingly badly in school and higher education. Maybe girls were just smarter all along? Explain BREXIT. Explain crime trends in Northern Europe. It's not all toxic masculinity.

What has any of this got to do with my post?

Shutting down debate is how you get a Trump. Would you like a Trump? I wouldn't and people shouldn't be afraid to speak out and they clearly are speaking with their vote in the fear of all this hashtaggery and right-on FB slacktivism. Social media has been abused as a method of shaming and shutting down debate. This backlash is just an expression of the opposite of what you're saying it is.

I'm a bit lost here. Are you saying that until recently there has been no counter point to the social progressives? If you are, then you're wrong.

No one should be afraid to speak out. I am not sure how you are responding to my post with the above.

2 Scoops · 03-04-2018 8:29pm

aidoh wrote: »

I've just become quite suspicious of people like Douglas Murray, Stefan Molyneux, Ben Shapiro, Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson, Sargon of Akkad, Paul Joseph Watson, Stephen Crowder, Gavin McInnes etc. recently.

These are guys who - intentionally or not - become wealthier and wealthier with each 'woke' video that they upload and the cynic in me thinks it's mostly for show and for cash.

How can you lump all these people together? People like Brian love using the term "alt-right" which is a label describing actual neo nazi's like Richard Spencer. Anyone who doesn't conform to the hard left neo Marxist ideology these days is thrown into that label including people who are left leaning, it's ridiculous really. You should be easily able to separate the people you mentioned based on what they actually do. I don't see how them making money for working is something to insult them with either?

Murray, Harris, Peterson - Cultural critics. Peterson societal and anti equality of outcome, Harris and Murray critical of Religion mainly Islam in Western society

Shapiro - Right wing Political commentator

Crowder, McInnes - Right wing Comedians, Gavin is far more controversial than Crowder who is more of an anti PC activist

Sargon of Akkad - Internet commentator, anti SJW, anti Feminist, Kekistan online trolling

Stefan Molyneux - No real experience with him - he hosts a web show. Appears to be a Trump supporter and his channel is very popular

PJW - Infowars conspiracy guy

Point I'm trying to make is, just because some of them interact with each other, it doesn't mean they all have the same message or are in special cohorts trying to milk money from those who oppose social authoritarianism. Gad Saad is another popular commentator who's critical of Islam, Dave Rubin hosts a show as does Mark Steyn. My point is you can't put the tags of left and right on all these people as if they are one single entity, many of them are classic liberals, the reason they're all interacting is because "the left" have gone so far left that they no longer want to interact anymore, whether that's casual conversation or debate.

Most of these people have been on Joe Rogan's podcast, which is one of the best on youtube.

03-04-2018 8:32pm

Brian? wrote: »

The conversation has never been one sided. This is the greatest myth spun by the alt right. The first time i heard the term “political correctness”, it was someone objecting to it. That was easily 25 years ago.

What has really changed is the ability of the “backlash” to reach people. Facebook, YouTube etc. make it easier to target the message.

The Simpsons were doing it over 25 years ago and Monty Python before them.
It's somewhat generational in the colleges but each time the grip tightens as the numbers in academia skew further in that direction.
I love how lefties like myself point out why the leftist movement isn't for us any more and we're told we're wrong. Hell I used to say the same but as time's gone by I've seen the **** coming and people pointing the other way.
Like I said, completely dismiss it if you like but it won't be pretty. The last few years I've seen people 5 years either side of my age give up on any hope of a mainstream left movement. Some are clinging on to the "socialist" tag but leaving behind the working classes they claim to represent. Funny enough it's the "better educated" who will hang on for the longest it seems.

Brian? · 03-04-2018 9:07pm

2 Scoops wrote: »

How can you lump all these people together? People like Brian love using the term "alt-right" which is a label describing actual neo nazi's like Richard Spencer. Anyone who doesn't conform to the hard left neo Marxist ideology these days is thrown into that label including people who are left leaning, it's ridiculous really. You should be easily able to separate the people you mentioned based on what they actually do. I don't see how them making money for working is something to insult them with either?

When I say the alt-right, I mean the alt right. I wouldn't see Peterson et al as members or the alt right, as much as the alt-right love them.

You don't see the irony of railing against labelling while throwing out terms like "neo Marxist"? I don't think there's any such thing as neo Marxism or cultural Marxism by the way. I think it's a broad labelling of people who've gone was overboard on identity politics on the left.

cantdecide · 03-04-2018 9:16pm

Brian?, you seem have taken up permanent residence in this thread and you appear to have no interest in anything anyone is saying apart from sharpening your argumentation chops (not limiting that to what we were discussing). Respectfully, I'm not going to respond to you on this thread any more.

2 Scoops · 03-04-2018 9:23pm

Brian? wrote: »

You don't see the irony of railing against labelling while throwing out terms like "neo Marxist"? I don't think there's any such thing as neo Marxism or cultural Marxism by the way.

How would you describe the culture on some (most) college campuses?

Look into the case of Lindsay Shepherd in Canada, that type of thing is mainstream.

Brian? · 03-04-2018 9:25pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The Simpsons were doing it over 25 years ago and Monty Python before them.
It's somewhat generational in the colleges but each time the grip tightens as the numbers in academia skew further in that direction.
I love how lefties like myself point out why the leftist movement isn't for us any more and we're told we're wrong. Hell I used to say the same but as time's gone by I've seen the **** coming and people pointing the other way.
Like I said, completely dismiss it if you like but it won't be pretty. The last few years I've seen people 5 years either side of my age give up on any hope of a mainstream left movement. Some are clinging on to the "socialist" tag but leaving behind the working classes they claim to represent. Funny enough it's the "better educated" who will hang on for the longest it seems.

Identity politics has gone too far. Agreed. The left needs to prioritise economic issues over identity politics.

My point was: the debate has never been one sided. People have been criticising political correctness since it was born.

Brian? · 03-04-2018 9:26pm

cantdecide wrote: »

Brian?, you seem have taken up permanent residence in this thread and you appear to have no interest in anything anyone is saying apart from sharpening your argumentation chops (not limiting that to what we were discussing). Respectfully, I'm not going to respond to you on this thread any more.

How about rebutting some of the points I'm actually making?

cantdecide · 03-04-2018 9:27pm

Brian? wrote: »

How about rebutting some of the points I'm actually making?

You seem impervious to that (again, not limiting that to any discussion we've had).

Brian? · 03-04-2018 9:31pm

2 Scoops wrote: »

How would you describe the culture on some (most) college campuses?

I wouldn't generalise it. I think that's really been the thrust of my argument all along. To say that college campuses are Marxist indoctrination centres is to way over simplify the issue.

Young people tend to lean left. Educated people also tend to lean left. This doesn't mean most college campuses are ideologically homogenous.

Look into the case of Lindsay Shepherd in Canada, that type of thing is mainstream.

It is. Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson are also main stream.

Brian? · 03-04-2018 9:33pm

cantdecide wrote: »

You seem impervious to that (again, not limiting that to any discussion we've had).

I am impervious to nothing. That would be gross arrogance.

You haven't actually tried.

2 Scoops · 03-04-2018 9:34pm

Brian? wrote: »

It is. Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson are also main stream.

I have no idea what point you're trying to make?

She was teaching a communications class and showed a video of Peterson that was aired on national TV and was threatened because of it. She recorded the scolding she got from the higher ups who likened Peterson to Hitler.

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/yw5dbg/wilfrid-laurier-exonerates-lindsay-shepherd-we-can-all-move-on-now

The only twist I can put on what you said is that you don't agree with free speech, but the most likely explanation is that you're spoofing and have no idea what I'm talking about.

2 Scoops · 03-04-2018 9:41pm

Brian? wrote: »

Young people tend to lean left.

Leaning left is a gross understatement and if that was the case there wouldn't be such a stigma over it. A large chunk of the youth these campuses are producing are closer to communists where pseudo science courses involving gender identity and white privilege are the norm.

mzungu · 03-04-2018 10:45pm

Brian? wrote: »

You don't see the irony of railing against labelling while throwing out terms like "neo Marxist"? I don't think there's any such thing as neo Marxism or cultural Marxism by the way. I think it's a broad labelling of people who've gone was overboard on identity politics on the left.

Yes and No. What was originally labelled cultural Marxism would be an extension of the work of Frankfurt School theorists. Essentially, it is a criticism of capitalism and the realisation that Marxism could not, and should not be brought in via force (USSR, China), instead it should be done via a "long march through the institutions" (Dutschke, Marcuse etc). In that sense, it does exist. But thats all it is. It's meant as shorthand for any form of critical theory attacks on capitalism, individualism and western culture back in the early 1970s. It did however trace postwar liberal agendas back to the Frankfurt School but it was not the overarching conspiracy theory that it is today. Pretty much anything that slides to the left of the spectrum is labelled "cultural Marxism" and things just fly from there.

Personally, I think it takes off in US pop culture now because Americans are still scarred after the excesses of the cold war. Hence, cultural Marxism works as a buzzphrase easily disseminated over the net. But it has been diluted into something unrecognisable from it's original usage (a sign of the times perhaps?). If I was going to call it anything I might shoot for "neo-Frankfurt Schoolism" although all things being as they are it would simply come under "(neo) critical theory."

For every left wing agenda, there is a right wing agenda, and most western countries will stick in the middle and veer gently to either side depending on what way the wind is blowing on any given day.

In short, while there is no grand conspiracy (and I am 100% sure that internet commentators that talk about cultural Marxism probably know it's being over exaggerated) , there possibly was a small cabal a few decades ago (and up to present) that probably tried their damnedest but to little avail. The extremes (lecturers / professors) that we see now and again in US college campuses may very well be these 60s throwbacks, but IMO they make waves precisely because they few and far between. Numbers may not be as great as some suggest.

Brian? · 03-04-2018 10:45pm

2 Scoops wrote: »

Leaning left is a gross understatement and if that was the case there wouldn't be such a stigma over it. A large chunk of the youth these campuses are producing are closer to communists where pseudo science courses involving gender identity and white privilege are the norm.

Define a "large chunk"?

You haven't responded to my point that the culture on these college campuses is no homogeneous.

Brian? · 03-04-2018 10:47pm

2 Scoops wrote: »

I have no idea what point you're trying to make?

She was teaching a communications class and showed a video of Peterson that was aired on national TV and was threatened because of it. She recorded the scolding she got from the higher ups who likened Peterson to Hitler.

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/yw5dbg/wilfrid-laurier-exonerates-lindsay-shepherd-we-can-all-move-on-now

The only twist I can put on what you said is that you don't agree with free speech, but the most likely explanation is that you're spoofing and have no idea what I'm talking about.

My point: both left and right wing activism are main stream. Simple enough? There is a debate.

2 Scoops · 03-04-2018 11:04pm

Brian? wrote: »

My point: both left and right wing activism are main stream. Simple enough? There is a debate.

Are you being disingenuous?

I gave an example of radical college culture in which an instructor who tried to show both sides of a debate that was originally aired on national tv ( in this case debating a law forcing the use of gender pronouns ).

How is college higher ups using threatening behavior and shutting down debate or opposing views and only conforming to one left wing activism? That's totalitarianism.

Brian? · 03-04-2018 11:15pm

2 Scoops wrote: »

Are you being disingenuous?

No.

I gave an example of radical college culture in which an instructor who tried to show both sides of a debate that was originally aired on national tv ( in this case debating a law forcing the use of gender pronouns ).

How is college higher ups using threatening behavior and shutting down debate or opposing views and only conforming to one left wing activism? That's totalitarianism.

I agree it's wrong. People should be free to air their views, no matter how wrong they are.

It's not totalitarianism though. That's hyperbole.

2 Scoops · 03-04-2018 11:20pm

Brian? wrote: »

No.

I agree it's wrong. People should be free to air their views, no matter how wrong they are.

It's not totalitarianism though. That's hyperbole.

But what has that got to do with your original point? You're comparing a college faculty shutting down debate in a threatening manner to people like Ben Shapiro?

It doesn't make any sense. This was your reply to the case I pointed out.

Brian? · 03-04-2018 11:25pm

2 Scoops wrote: »

But what has that got to do with your original point? You're comparing a college faculty shutting down debate in a threatening manner to people like Ben Shapiro?

It doesn't make any sense. This was your reply to the case I pointed out.

This is getting silly, I'm out.

2 Scoops · 03-04-2018 11:31pm

Brian? wrote: »

This is getting silly, I'm out.

You don't make any sense. I said look into the case of Lindsay Shepard being shutdown on campus in Canada for trying to engage an open argument and your reply was Ben Shapiro and Jordon Peterson were also mainstream.

What do you want me to say?

mzungu · 03-04-2018 11:56pm

2 Scoops wrote: »

You don't make any sense. I said look into the case of Lindsay Shepard being shutdown on campus in Canada for trying to engage an open argument and your reply was Ben Shapiro and Jordon Peterson were also mainstream.

What do you want me to say?

AFAIK the university agreed that they handled things terribly and gave a full apology. An example of over zealousness (and studpidity) on the part of her superiors but not much else. I certainly would not be attributing it to anything like cultural Marxism etc.

04-04-2018 12:04am

Brian? wrote: »

Identity politics has gone too far. Agreed. The left needs to prioritise economic issues over identity politics.

My point was: the debate has never been one sided. People have been criticising political correctness since it was born.

Trouble is that anything not far left is now right according to the left while they've allied with some strange bedfellows which I think they will regret going forward.

mzungu wrote: »

In short, while there is no grand conspiracy (and I am 100% sure that internet commentators that talk about cultural Marxism probably know it's being over exaggerated) , there possibly was a small cabal a few decades ago (and up to present) that probably tried their damnedest but to little avail. The extremes (lecturers / professors) that we see now and again in US college campuses may very well be these 60s throwbacks, but IMO they make waves precisely because they few and far between. Numbers may not be as great as some suggest.

Or they may be greater than some suggest. I'm sure you're familiar with the Bret Weinstein story as well? And it is increasing. Privilege race in Trinity was a good one, really wish I'd still been there, they would have been pretty surprised how far I would've gotten as a white guy. :P Bill Mahar getting protested, comedians completely skipping colleges whether it's Chris Rock or Jerry feckin Seinfeld.

04-04-2018 12:04am

mzungu wrote: »

AFAIK the university agreed that they handled things terribly and gave a full apology. An example of over zealousness (and studpidity) on the part of her superiors but not much else. I certainly would not be attributing it to anything like cultural Marxism etc.

Had she not recorded it would she have gotten the same result?

2 Scoops · 04-04-2018 12:04am

mzungu wrote: »

AFAIK the university agreed that they handled things terribly and gave a full apology. An example of over zealousness (and studpidity) on the part of her superiors but not much else. I certainly would not be attributing it to anything like cultural Marxism etc.

Fair enough but imo they only apologized because she recorded it. I listened to the entire thing where they openly and clearly state other opinions aren't allowed and compared Peterson to Hitler. Imo that way of thinking and authoritarianism is the norm in positions of power throughout social science faculties, obviously I can't prove that, Shepard is just a singular case.

Brian? · 04-04-2018 12:34am

Deleted User wrote: »

Trouble is that anything not far left is now right according to the left while they've allied with some strange bedfellows which I think they will regret going forward.

I think you're falling into the trap of generalising "the left". Some elements of the left are doing exactly what you're saying, but then some aren't.

There are still plenty of old school leftists out there who disagree with identity politics. Slavoj Zizek is a prime example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OzL0tGygso

Brian? · 04-04-2018 12:50am

Another good example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dNbWGaaxWM

aidoh · 04-04-2018 9:13am

2 Scoops wrote: »

How can you lump all these people together? People like Brian love using the term "alt-right" which is a label describing actual neo nazi's like Richard Spencer. Anyone who doesn't conform to the hard left neo Marxist ideology these days is thrown into that label including people who are left leaning, it's ridiculous really. You should be easily able to separate the people you mentioned based on what they actually do. I don't see how them making money for working is something to insult them with either?

Murray, Harris, Peterson - Cultural critics. Peterson societal and anti equality of outcome, Harris and Murray critical of Religion mainly Islam in Western society

Shapiro - Right wing Political commentator

Crowder, McInnes - Right wing Comedians, Gavin is far more controversial than Crowder who is more of an anti PC activist

Sargon of Akkad - Internet commentator, anti SJW, anti Feminist, Kekistan online trolling

Stefan Molyneux - No real experience with him - he hosts a web show. Appears to be a Trump supporter and his channel is very popular

PJW - Infowars conspiracy guy

Point I'm trying to make is, just because some of them interact with each other, it doesn't mean they all have the same message or are in special cohorts trying to milk money from those who oppose social authoritarianism. Gad Saad is another popular commentator who's critical of Islam, Dave Rubin hosts a show as does Mark Steyn. My point is you can't put the tags of left and right on all these people as if they are one single entity, many of them are classic liberals, the reason they're all interacting is because "the left" have gone so far left that they no longer want to interact anymore, whether that's casual conversation or debate.

Most of these people have been on Joe Rogan's podcast, which is one of the best on youtube.

I wasn't inferring any of them are "alt-right", though I suspect a handful of them are extremely conservative in their views.

I don't think they're part of some clique necessarily - I was lumping them together in that post as an example of talking heads who make money off of impotent rage. I suppose they're good at articulating what many people think but can't quite put their finger on - so maybe have that in common too.

Off topic but Joe's is a good podcast and I've been listening for a decade. He's definitely guilty of cashing in on the anti-SJW circle-jerk too though.

Maxpfizer · 04-04-2018 9:46am

Wibbs wrote: »

“The internet is being written by men with an agenda"? Eh... wut? The "internet" can be written by anyone with a connection. Is 50% of the web's population just sitting there dribbling on themselves? No, they're not. Typical nonsense in the Guardian to be fair.

Something that stands out to me is that they are fast to complain about harassment and things like Wikipedia pages being changed but they do not acknowledge at all the kind of abuse and hate that Peterson receives.

For Peterson, it even reaches the level of mainstream media outlets either trying to misrepresent him or outright lie about him.

People really enjoyed his "GOTCHA" moment in the interview but ultimately it seems to have had no effect. Yes, he exposed the idea that she is willing and actually trying to offend him in the interview while also moaning that he himself is offensive.

They haven't learned from it though. Peterson gets abuse online and it's just ignored. Peterson's opponent gets abuse and it not only gets publicity but there is a push to have him held responsible.

Peterson is expected to somehow answer for the fact that "the Alt-Right" likes his views (despite his views being completely opposite to most basic Alt-Right views).

Cathy Newman gets an entire article in The Guardian (comments not allowed?) basically jerking her off and trying to do damage control on two disastrous interviews where she tried to blindly push an agenda and was outwitted and embarrassed.

The entire article is agenda driven AND it appears on a big-ish outlet on The Internet BUT she will still shamelessly claim that the internet is being written by men with an agenda...

Jordan Peterson interview on C4

Comments