Dublin Heuston to Cork journey 24 march 2018 obervations

Praetorian · 24-03-2018 4:43pm #1

I love trains and I don't get to go on journeys nearly often enough.

I'm currently on the 3pm Heuston to Cork train. The train is nice and clean and we are on schedule. I find the seats very comfortable, the temperature is perfect and the wifi has been very good.

I am however still disappointed with the ride quality for vast stretches of the journey so far. I mean it's seriously bouncy. That 130kph corner at Portarlington was jarring. Is that down to lack of 60kg rail? Or has the 60kg rail been laid at a low standard? I know our railways can't be compared fairly to other railways I've been fortunate enough to travel on (ICE Germany, TGV France, and especially the Shinkansen in Japan). The top speed I've seen (and I've checked 10 times or so) has been 145 kph. Some might even go faster than that on the motorway.

Jamie2k9 · 24-03-2018 7:25pm

Praetorian wrote: »

I love trains and I don't get to go on journeys nearly often enough.

I'm currently on the 3pm Heuston to Cork train. The train is nice and clean and we are on schedule. I find the seats very comfortable, the temperature is perfect and the wifi has been very good.

I am however still disappointed with the ride quality for vast stretches of the journey so far. I mean it's seriously bouncy. That 130kph corner at Portarlington was jarring. Is that down to lack of 60kg rail? Or has the 60kg rail been laid at a low standard? I know our railways can't be compared fairly to other railways I've been fortunate enough to travel on (ICE Germany, TGV France, and especially the Shinkansen in Japan). The top speed I've seen (and I've checked 10 times or so) has been 145 kph. Some might even go faster than that on the motorway.

Portarlington is on a bend along with points either side of the station. Its really a case of rebuilding the station (again!!) or reducing speed to 100-110km/h for a smooth ride.

Your right the ride quality on the Mark IV's is and has always been poor, the only area where they have it right is Park West to Hazelhatch, Portarlington to Portlaoise and Limerick J to Charleville with the rest hit and miss. The ICR's handle it much better.

Lots of the route is 160 km/h with the rest largely 145 km/h with the odd 130km/h such as through Portarlington.

phater phagan · 24-03-2018 7:37pm

I notice that the trains to Heuston on Easter week have a bus transfer from Newbridge.
Is it for work on the line? If so, I wonder why they would schedule such work on, what I imagine will be, quite a busy time for travel?
The last two times that I traveled to Dublin, there were delays and breakdowns.
I guess I'm just unlucky with my Irish Rail experiences.

Jamie2k9 · 24-03-2018 7:44pm

phater phagan wrote: »

I notice that the trains to Heuston on Easter week have a bus transfer from Newbridge.
Is it for work on the line? If so, I wonder why they would schedule such work on, what I imagine will be, quite a busy time for travel?
The last two times that I traveled to Dublin, there were delays and breakdowns.
I guess I'm just unlucky with my Irish Rail experiences.

Installation of new road bridge, bank hoilday weekends are usually quieter as well. This work has been more less in a year of planning. The only one IE may not schedule major works is August BH.

tabbey · 24-03-2018 8:57pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Installation of new road bridge, bank hoilday weekends are usually quieter as well. This work has been more less in a year of planning. The only one IE may not schedule major works is August BH.

Which bridge is it?

Jamie2k9 · 24-03-2018 9:49pm

tabbey wrote: »

Which bridge is it?

The field to the left of this local road, it's the Celbridge Bypass and going under the railway.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.2441171,-6.67744,190m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

kc56 · 25-03-2018 1:35am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The field to the left of this local road, it's the Celbridge Bypass and going under the railway.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.2441171,-6.67744,190m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

Actually it's the Sallins bypass which is part of the M7 Upgrade.

Praetorian · 25-03-2018 3:36pm

Heading back now on the 15.25 service. Seems to be speed restrictions for quite a bit before Mallow. Again mark 4's with a 201. Would have been interesting to experience it on an ICR. Do the 201's struggle to get to their top speed of 160kph? Like on the way down i never once saw above 145kph. Next time I head down I'll have to specifically try and book an ICR, even though a far prefer old school loco pulled trains.

Are the bouncy sections the older 40kg rail? and the smoother bits 60kg?

Jamie2k9 · 25-03-2018 3:59pm

Praetorian wrote: »

Heading back now on the 15.25 service. Seems to be speed restrictions for quite a bit before Mallow. Again mark 4's with a 201. Would have been interesting to experience it on an ICR. Do the 201's struggle to get to their top speed of 160kph? Like on the way down i never once saw above 145kph. Next time I head down I'll have to specifically try and book an ICR, even though a far prefer old school loco pulled trains.

Are the bouncy sections the older 40kg rail? and the smoother bits 60kg?

They did overnight engineering works between Cork and Mallow hence the restrictions. Most of the route should be newer track but yes some sections will probally still be older.

201's regularly do 160km/h, remember the app for checking will not be fully accurate but. North of Charleville is the first area of 160km/h.

goingnowhere · 25-03-2018 4:38pm

Entire route is either 54kg or 60kg rails

tabbey · 26-03-2018 11:09am

Praetorian wrote: »

Are the bouncy sections the older 40kg rail? and the smoother bits 60kg?

40 kg per metre = 88 lb per metre = 80 lb per yard.

Even 50 years ago the Cork line had 92 or 95 lb per yard rails.

Track on Irish railway lines has always been inferior to those in Britain, and very much worse than western continental countries.

Ride quality is also a product of rolling stock design, manufacture and maintenance.
In particular the Mk IV coaches have never been satisfactory. There was some tweaking presumably under warranty, but problems remain. In my view, IR should have sued for a refund of their money, as the coaches remain unfit for purchase.

There was no excuse whatever for storing / withdrawing / scrapping the Mk III fleet, IR could have used them and returned the Mk IV fleet to CAF. Once the Mk III fleet was gone, CAF knew that IR had no choice but to keep their garbage.

Jamie2k9 · 26-03-2018 4:23pm

Some of the ballast cleaning on the Cork line hasn't delivered any benefit to ride quality. Yes they have lifted speed from 90 to 100 however ride quality is still not great if not worse.

I don't think any rolling stock will be able to deliver the smooth ride quality people expect but its the total inconsistency on the Cork line I just don't understand.

Quality control anybody?

There was no excuse whatever for storing / withdrawing / scrapping the Mk III fleet, IR could have used them and returned the Mk IV fleet to CAF. Once the Mk III fleet was gone, CAF knew that IR had no choice but to keep their garbage.

Well that's a bit of a stretch, they messed up on contract clauses however IE should take a sizable portion of blame because of poor infrastructure and this was during the boom.

MGWR · 26-03-2018 7:29pm

tabbey wrote: »

There was no excuse whatever for storing / withdrawing / scrapping the Mk III fleet, IR could have used them and returned the Mk IV fleet to CAF. Once the Mk III fleet was gone, CAF knew that IR had no choice but to keep their garbage.

Certainly agree there. The Mark 3s were just over two decades old at the time of their premature retirement; the UK has far older Mark 3s in service to this day, never mind Mark 2s of various iterations.

But of course, IE were in such a hurry to retire all of the Bo-Bo EMD locos even though they could have been upgraded to modern standards for way less money than was spent on buying the plethora of DMUs they now have in service. Imagine the 141/181s upgraded to allow push-pull, as well as having modern 8-710 prime movers (the 8-710G3A-T2 is rated at 2,150 horsepower) and IGBT three-phase AC traction motors with superior starting and continuous tractive effort (superior acceleration and top speed, plus being able to move longer trains? but that would mean no excuse to drop the freight business they got rid of about a decade ago).

cgcsb · 27-03-2018 10:01am

There was talk of a series of works 2 years ago to upgrade parts of the Dublin-Cork route in order to bring the express journey time down to under 2 hours. Some work was done afaik, then it was forgotten about? money probably subsumed by wage demands.

Jamie2k9 · 27-03-2018 12:01pm

cgcsb wrote: »

There was talk of a series of works 2 years ago to upgrade parts of the Dublin-Cork route in order to bring the express journey time down to under 2 hours. Some work was done afaik, then it was forgotten about? money probably subsumed by wage demands.

Its currently taking place. Infrastructure and Operations are split.

Praetorian · 27-03-2018 1:13pm

I will say the journey home did feel & look faster at times. Gps tracking confirmed 156 / 158 kph for long stretches. I find those trackers to be quite accurate. Then there was longer stops in stations. Perhaps it could be down to driver preferences of putting the boot down and get there a little early if necessary to stops, but then departing on time. Compared to the south bound journey where the driver limited his speed to around 90 mph (140-145 kph) to keeo closer to the schedule?

or could the North bound line be in better nick?

or could different 201's perform differently?

I'm not sure.

The inconsistency on the ride quality is the real shocker. Like at times it's really very good, and european like spec. Then at times it's very bouncy.

I'll definitely try an ICR next time. Do they get scheduled onto express runs?

cgcsb · 27-03-2018 1:20pm

Surely by now then there should be journey time improvements evident? Dublin-Cork needs to be sub 2 hours in the medium term. It also would be nice to increase the frequency beyond one train per hour.

Jamie2k9 · 27-03-2018 1:35pm

Praetorian wrote: »

I will say the journey home did feel & look faster at times. Gps tracking confirmed 156 / 158 kph for long stretches. I find those trackers to be quite accurate. Then there was longer stops in stations. Perhaps it could be down to driver preferences of putting the boot down and get there a little early if necessary to stops, but then departing on time. Compared to the south bound journey where the driver limited his speed to around 90 mph (140-145 kph) to keeo closer to the schedule?

or could the North bound line be in better nick?

or could different 201's perform differently?

I'm not sure.

The inconsistency on the ride quality is the real shocker. Like at times it's really very good, and european like spec. Then at times it's very bouncy.

I'll definitely try an ICR next time. Do they get scheduled onto express runs?

Yes drivers will always be different, schedules are not particularly tight so there will be longer dwell times.

ICR operate 10/12/14/21.00 ex Dublin and 05.50, 06.15 (non stop) and 13/15/17.25 ex Cork.

Surely by now then there should be journey time improvements evident? Dublin-Cork needs to be sub 2 hours in the medium term. It also would be nice to increase the frequency beyond one train per hour.

You can just about justify the hourly service....

cgcsb · 27-03-2018 1:39pm

If the journey times offered were sub 2 hours you can bet there would be a lot more demand for more frequency, 3 hour(+traffic delay) buses and driving ones own car for nearly the same time will become very unattractive especially as Kent station becomes better integrated to the City Centre.

Praetorian · 27-03-2018 3:07pm

Beating 2 hours looks really tough. Every time I've gone to Cork for the last 15 years, there has been speed restrictions in place at least a couple of times. Making the services non stop doesn't look feasible either, as quite a few people do get off at Mallow and Limerick Junction. I suppose reducing to those 2 stops only would help. How can another 28-35 minutes be shaved off the schedule? Could the good parts of the line be rated for higher then 100mph. Is the 100mph limit due to 201's and ICR max?

cgcsb · 27-03-2018 4:07pm

The ewpress runs non stop in the morning at 2hr15, surely track improvements and removing speed restrictions can get that down to 2hr, at least that's what IÉ had planned, which would also mean more speed for Tralee and Limerick(fastest train could be as little as 1hr45). But they seem to be no longer talking about that project.

Praetorian · 27-03-2018 5:28pm

That 2hr 15 mins time seems to be once per day. Sounds slightly like a vanity thing for IE. Or they would say it's for the business commuters. But finding another 15 minutes of improvements would be hugely difficult I would imagine. Probably why all talk of the under 2 hours has quietened.

When people think of the train, they think of nearly 3 hours. That's the sad reality.

man98 · 27-03-2018 6:35pm

I've taken the 06.15 express to Dublin before and I do believe that they could tighten up that schedule slightly more and that it's feasible to cut it to 2 hours. Trouble is, you need to fiddle around with commuter train patterns as the service gets caught by red aspects between Portalarlington and Hazlehatch. While loadings are generally strong for a 3 car set, I'm not certain the demand is there for any further roll out. A 2 hour standard, however, would very much improve the IÉ offering.

On a side note, is the 3 car set split from the 7 car ICR on the 21.00 HN - CK service, with the other 4 cars operating the 05.50 CK - HN service? Does the driver of the extra service need to deadhead back to CK? Seems like a poorly thought out service tbh, could have considered running the 3ICR back to CK on a new stopping service at 20.00...

Jamie2k9 · 27-03-2018 6:55pm

It will be able to do it in 2 hours. The service still carries relatively low numbers for a 3 car service. It was Franks project. IE expected to just get away with giving it the express run between Portarlington and Heuston by launching the middle of a timetable. Commuters had there say and forced them to re-think the plan and rightly so the 05.20 from Westport gets priority now. Total incompetence by the schedule planners.

On a side note, is the 3 car set split from the 7 car ICR on the 21.00 HN - CK service, with the other 4 cars operating the 05.50 CK - HN service? Does the driver of the extra service need to deadhead back to CK? Seems like a poorly thought out service tbh, could have considered running the 3ICR back to CK on a new stopping service at 20.00...

Can't remember how its timetabled now. The problem with a 20.00 service is it would require an extra driver/host whatever you try to roster it even if the 06.15 crew traveled home as a passenger.

IE 222 · 27-03-2018 7:16pm

Does 2hrs running not involve 100mph throughout. I think it was planned to straighten some sections for this, the Curragh been one.

There has been speed improvements over the years but unfortunately with a skimping budget the projects can only be done in dribs and drabs.

The 201s are maxed out at 100mph as well. Some will preform better than others depending on their serviceable level.

Praetorian · 28-03-2018 11:58am

Does anyone know if the blocky nature of the 201's profile vs the more aerodynamic nature of the CAF driving car, make any difference to it's speed?

Jamie2k9 · 28-03-2018 2:22pm

Praetorian wrote: »

Does anyone know if the blocky nature of the 201's profile vs the more aerodynamic nature of the CAF driving car, make any difference to it's speed?

There is no difference, it's the locomotive that's driving the train at all times. Its just poor design for the infrastructure here but they were a lot worse before. If I can remember, the Mark3s had a lot of problems at the start as well.

Does 2hrs running not involve 100mph throughout. I think it was planned to straighten some sections for this, the Curragh been one.

There has been speed improvements over the years but unfortunately with a skimping budget the projects can only be done in dribs and drabs.

The 201s are maxed out at 100mph as well. Some will preform better than others depending on their serviceable level.

They can do 2 hours and have before on test runs. I will require some sections to be upgraded but anything lower than 2 hours will unlikely be possible on a regular basis.

They planned to address the bend at the Curragh years ago but it would appear to be shelved. The 50mph through Limerick J needs to be a minimum of 80mph for non stop service. Mallow-Charleville needs to be upgraded to 100 while Cork-Mallow will always be lower because of bends on the route.

tabbey · 28-03-2018 3:07pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They can do 2 hours and have before on test runs.

Some recovery time is always required for contingencies, built into the public timetable. There is always work ongoing somewhere on any mainline, and this needs to be provided for in the public offering.

tabbey · 28-03-2018 3:15pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They planned to address the bend at the Curragh years ago but it would appear to be shelved.

There was talk of it, but I don't think any real plans.

The Curragh is one realignment which is technically easy, and would save the best part of a minute for all the main line trains out of Heuston.

It is a no-brainer, but apart from the authoritie's unwillingness to address such issues, the horse lobby would kick up a row, even though slightly changing the angle of a part of the race course, would only need moving a wooden fence.

Jamie2k9 · 28-03-2018 5:10pm

tabbey wrote: »

Some recovery time is always required for contingencies, built into the public timetable. There is always work ongoing somewhere on any mainline, and this needs to be provided for in the public offering.

They would have sufficient recovery time built into the 2 hours. It was a while ago but they ran a number of ICRs overnight to check timing.

IE 222 · 28-03-2018 9:05pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

There is no difference, it's the locomotive that's driving the train at all times. Its just poor design for the infrastructure here but they were a lot worse before. If I can remember, the Mark3s had a lot of problems at the start as well.

They can do 2 hours and have before on test runs. I will require some sections to be upgraded but anything lower than 2 hours will unlikely be possible on a regular basis.

They planned to address the bend at the Curragh years ago but it would appear to be shelved. The 50mph through Limerick J needs to be a minimum of 80mph for non stop service. Mallow-Charleville needs to be upgraded to 100 while Cork-Mallow will always be lower because of bends on the route.

The Limerick Jct 50 is only a recent upgrade. Limerick Jct itself needs a rebuild. Too much point work and I'm guessing the Waterford line crossing will restrict speeds regardless.

What is the limit of Mallow - Charleville, 80? This section has a lot of sharpe and S bends but would be a lot easier to straighten out compared to Mallow - Cork with all the cuttings and gradients.

Dublin Heuston to Cork journey 24 march 2018 obervations

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