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Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

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  • #2942
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Katie Full Leak wrote: »
    Perhaps you should read it for yourself. That way you can't accuse anyone of trying to deceive you.


    Btw you've still not backed up your claim that a foetus isn't human. Do you have any reply on that one?


    What word comes after human.


    Give you a clue. It’s being.

    A foetus doesn’t qualify in either. It is nether human (concious aware sentient) nor being (it cannot survive outside its surroundings)

    Therefore a woman has the right to determine for herself what happens within her own body. You don’t get to decide. Nor does you god actually. Except when he’s being a completely evil git and gives it an abnormality that renders it incompatible with life. Which he does. Often.

    Nice god you got there. Real charmer.


  • #2943
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    david75 wrote: »
    What word comes after human.


    Give you a clue. It’s being.

    A foetus doesn’t qualify in either. It is nether human (concious aware sentient) nor being (it cannot survive outside its surroundings)

    Therefore a woman has the right to determine for herself what happens within her own body. You don’t get to decide. Nor does you god actually. Except when he’s being a completely evil git and gives it an abnormality that renders it incompatible with life. Which he does. Often.

    Nice god you got there. Real charmer.

    So it has human DNA, looks human and is not human. It also has its being within the environment where it's meant to be but is not a being...have I got that right?

    As for God, don't try put the blame on someone you deny exists. That just doesn't make sense.
    Next you'll be telling us you have an invisible friend!


    Edit: have I got it right that you consider it human?


  • #2944
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    david75 wrote: »
    What word comes after human.


    Give you a clue. It’s being.

    Hi David,

    A foetus doesn’t qualify in either. It is nether human (concious aware sentient) nor being (it cannot survive outside its surroundings)

    Therefore a woman has the right to determine for herself what happens within her own body. You don’t get to decide. Nor does you god actually. Except when he’s being a completely evil git and gives it an abnormality that renders it incompatible with life. Which he does. Often.

    Nice god you got there. Real charmer.


    A fetus is an unborn child and a human life. Even Varadkar the abortion leader, has corrected people on that. And in addition to the article below, you can listen to the recent interview with him on RTE radio, where he says when talking about abortion, a fetus and unborn child are the one and the same.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/dont-use-foetus-when-you-mean-baby-varadkar-35234768.html

    So you can use the term fetus all day long, but no one is going to be fooled that it's not a human life / unborn child. You're disguising nothing.

    Also here is some biology revision.

    http://www.biologyreference.com/La-Ma/Life-Cycle-Human.html
    The human life cycle begins at fertilization . . .and the heart begins beating at three weeks . . .

    As for sentient, a person sufficiently drugged or in a coma is not sentient either, and it gives no one the right to kill them either.


  • #2945
    Achasanai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 730 ✭✭✭Achasanai


    J C wrote: »
    Nick was referring to your conflation of the Great Commission ... to go forth and make desciples of all Nations, with the Salvation of unborn children and other Human Beings that never got the chance to be Saved, in this life.

    And something that plenty of denominations and theology has confused as well.
    J C wrote: »

    There is actually. The above scripture is referring to violence directed at a pregnant woman that results in the serious injury or death of an unborn child ... which would also encompass procured abortion.

    Or: serious injury to the woman involved. But again, not an explicit reference. You also mentioned the Old Covenant that doesn't apply to those who follow Christ. Does this injunction fall within that understanding?
    J C wrote: »
    Thou shall not kill, is pretty clear ... and the Commandments, being given directly by God, apply to all Christians.

    I agree here. But the central point is whether a Christian voting in the forthcoming referendum sees a fetus or an 'unborn child'. I mean, there are other points (as mentioned previously here, like a woman's bodily autonomy, but I don't think this point is particularly pressing for certain kinds of Christian).

    J C wrote: »
    It would seem so ... but by not being Saved at the earliest opportunity, you would lose out on the benefits of being a Christian, for as long as you remained un-Saved.

    What is that compared to eternity?


  • #2946
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    A fetus is an unborn child and a human life. Even Varadkar the leader of pro abortion has corrected people on that. And in addition to the article below, you can listen to the recent interview with him on RTE radio, where he says when talking about abortion, a fetus and unborn child are the one and the same.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/dont-use-foetus-when-you-mean-baby-varadkar-35234768.html

    So you can use the term fetus all day long, but no one is going to be fooled that it's not a human life / unborn child. You're disguising nothing.

    Also here is some biology revision.

    http://www.biologyreference.com/La-Ma/Life-Cycle-Human.html




    So according to that at three weeks the heart starts beating.


    I think you better let the world of medicine know. It looks like a pro life organisation knows more and knows better than them. The shock!


    As for varadkar do you agree with every statement he makes? And if he makes a statement do we all have to agree and follow suit?

    Did you agree when he supported marriage equality? Do you agree with him completely ignoring banks forcing families into homelessness, or indeed the long ignored homeless problem?

    Don’t bring nonsense and irrelevance into your points especially when it’s from a Taoiseach who has no mandate yet is a gp who opposed abortion initially but now says he supports it.
    The man is a snake and he goes where the winds blow him to serve himself, be it politically or otherwise. Try harder.


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  • #2947
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    david75 wrote: »
    So according to that at three weeks the heart starts beating.


    I think you better let the world of medicine know. It looks like a pro life organisation knows more and knows better than them. The shock!


    As for varadkar do you agree with every statement he makes? And if he makes a statement do we all have to agree and follow suit?

    Did you agree when he supported marriage equality? Do you agree with him completely ignoring banks forcing families into homelessness, or indeed the long ignored homeless problem?

    Don’t bring nonsense and irrelevance into your points especially when it’s from a Taoiseach who has no mandate yet is a gp who opposed abortion initially but now says he supports it.
    The man is a snake and he goes where the winds blow him to serve himself, be it politically or otherwise. Try harder.

    And yet this is the man you're trusting to enact legislation if the referendum is passed?? Interesting:)


  • #2948
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    david75 wrote: »
    So according to that at three weeks the heart starts beating.


    I think you better let the world of medicine know. It looks like a pro life organisation knows more and knows better than them. The shock!

    I don't have to, it's not from any pro life or abortion website, it's from a biology reference site.
    As for varadkar do you agree with every statement he makes? And if he makes a statement do we all have to agree and follow suit?

    No, but as a medical doctor, he knows he has to admit that a fetus/unborn child/baby are the one and same.
    The man is a snake and he goes where the winds blow him to serve himself, be it politically or otherwise. Try harder.

    He goes with whatever the opinion polls say. So do many others. The fallacy is called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum


  • #2949
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,528 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    david75 wrote: »
    What god allows a new life be doomed to die in the womb before it ls born? What so called Christian would force any mother to give birth to a baby that would die moments later because of that god given physical flaw or incurable sickness only so she has to watch it take its last breath moments later?

    That’s a merciful god? Seriously?? That’s Christian?
    Forcibly imposing suffering on a life that cannot survive and Imposing that suffering forever on a mother that has to live with that memory?


    I’d like to believe God wouldnt do that. It’s his hysterical myopic followers doing that.

    that situation is irrelevant as there is no dispute about abortion being availible in that circumstance. it's contraceptive/lifestyle/convenience abortion that is the issue.
    david75 wrote: »
    What word comes after human.


    Give you a clue. It’s being.

    A foetus doesn’t qualify in either. It is nether human (concious aware sentient) nor being (it cannot survive outside its surroundings)

    Therefore a woman has the right to determine for herself what happens within her own body. You don’t get to decide. Nor does you god actually. Except when he’s being a completely evil git and gives it an abnormality that renders it incompatible with life. Which he does. Often.

    Nice god you got there. Real charmer.

    nope wrong, a fetus does qualify in both counts. consciousness isn't a determining factor as to whether something is a human being or not. neither is being aware or sentients. so a woman does not have the right to determine for herself what happens to the unborn unless it's for medically necessary reasons. society does get to decide what we all do in cases where we may end up causing harm to others, and in ireland that applies to the unborn. so, again, you have provided no valid arguments.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #2950
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    SO many replies. So little time.

    If only you each had the same time to commit to helping real children in crisis.

    Or even cared about them.


  • #2951
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Achasanai wrote: »
    And something that plenty of denominations and theology has confused as well.
    True.

    Achasanai wrote: »
    Or: serious injury to the woman involved. But again, not an explicit reference. You also mentioned the Old Covenant that doesn't apply to those who follow Christ. Does this injunction fall within that understanding?
    The Mosaic Law doesn't apply to Christians ... but the injunction to not be involved in evil or the killing of innocent Human Beings in abortion, does apply to Christians.


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  • #2952
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    david75 wrote: »
    SO many replies. So little time.

    If only you each had the same time to commit to helping real children in crisis.

    Or even cared about them.
    You seem to be spending quite an amount of time here as well.

    Here is an interesting article on the link between the occult and abortion, which Christians should be aware of.

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/abortion-and-the-occult-a-glimpse-into-a-planned-parenthood-death-mill


  • #2953
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    J C wrote: »
    You seem to be spending quite an amount of time here as well.

    Here is an interesting article on the link between the occult and abortion, which Christians should be aware of.

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/complete-interview-with-abigail-seidman-abortion-and-the-occult



    So you’re now linking abortion to the occult.


    You’re not joking and that’s the really sad part.

    Don’t expect to be taken seriously though.


  • #2954
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    david75 wrote: »
    SO many replies. So little time.

    If only you each had the same time to commit to helping real children in crisis.

    Or even cared about them.

    You have no idea what anyone here does in their spare time, or any time in fact.
    You’re clutching at straws.
    You’ve every entitlement to argue your point, but this smacks of desperation.


  • #2955
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    david75 wrote: »
    SO many replies. So little time.

    If only you each had the same time to commit to helping real children in crisis.

    Or even cared about them.
    Do you generalise much?

    You've no idea what any of us does in our spare time.


  • #2956
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    david75 wrote: »
    So you’re now linking abortion to the occult.


    You’re not joking and that’s the really sad part.

    Don’t expect to be taken seriously though.
    Its no joke allright.


  • #2957
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    splinter65 wrote: »
    You have no idea what anyone here does in their spare time, or any time in fact.
    You’re clutching at straws.
    You’ve every entitlement to argue your point, but this smacks of desperation.

    It’s accurate though. You and everyone from your POV seem to have unlimited time to be here and argue. Endlessly.

    Is that not weird? It’s bizarre in fact. I’m postulating that perhaps that would be time better spent would it not? You have the highest post count i this thread by a long long way.
    I’m not clutching at anything by the way.

    Least of all at women’s wombs.


  • #2958
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    J C wrote: »
    Its no joke allright.


    So we’re sacrificing almost virgins for the devil?

    To what end?

    Can you send me some leaflets about it?



    *actually you probably can. So don’t.


  • #2959
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    david75 wrote: »
    It’s accurate though.

    Is that like saying something with human DNA isn't human.perhaps it really is an orange:D


  • #2960
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,528 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    david75 wrote: »
    It’s accurate though. You and everyone from your POV seem to have unlimited time to be here and argue. Endlessly.

    Is that not weird? It’s bizarre in fact. I’m postulating that perhaps that would be time better spent would it not? You have the highest post count i this thread by a long long way.
    I’m not clutching at anything by the way.

    Least of all at women’s wombs.

    you have no evidence for your claim though. you seem to have a lot of time yourself to come on here and post about stuff that isn't even relevant to the debate. you are very much clutching at straws. you have no arguments, no evidence for your claims.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #2961
    benneca1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 494 ✭✭benneca1


    Why not. Why should you force others who don't believe in your God to do what he says. I have no problem with you doing what your God tells you. I do have a problem when your God tells me what to do especially when I don't think he exists. Bit of an impasse really. To be honest we should have gone beyond all this crap by now but we haven't. If i don't believe in god can I sin ? If I don't believe in God are you obliged to stop me sinning ? Should we ban alcohol to stop the sizeable muslin population sinning ? Or pork ? Or blood transfusions for the other loonies Good God give me a bloody break


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  • #2962
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,528 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    benneca1 wrote: »
    Why not. Why should you force others who don't believe in your God to do what he says. I have no problem with you doing what your God tells you. I do have a problem when your God tells me what to do especially when I don't think he exists. Bit of an impasse really. To be honest we should have gone beyond all this crap by now but we haven't. If i don't believe in god can I sin ? If I don't believe in God are you obliged to stop me sinning ? Should we ban alcohol to stop the sizeable muslin population sinning ? Or pork ? Or blood transfusions for the other loonies Good God give me a bloody break

    why not what? this is a thread about whether a christian can vote for unlimited abortion. if you are a christian, then based on my very limited knowledge and understanding of it there is only one god. you, don't believe in a god so i'm not sure how your post is relevant?

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #2963
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    david75 wrote: »
    It’s accurate though. You and everyone from your POV seem to have unlimited time to be here and argue. Endlessly.

    Is that not weird? It’s bizarre in fact. I’m postulating that perhaps that would be time better spent would it not? You have the highest post count i this thread by a long long way.
    I’m not clutching at anything by the way.

    Least of all at women’s wombs.
    I have the highest post count in this thread?!?!? Show me.


  • #2964
    benneca1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 494 ✭✭benneca1


    end of the road wrote: »
    why not what? this is a thread about whether a christian can vote for unlimited abortion. if you are a christian, then based on my very limited knowledge and understanding of it there is only one god. you, don't believe in a god so i'm not sure how your post is relevant?

    Well doh of course a Christian cannot vote for abortion for herself if she wishes to abide by the rules from the big one in the sky. But are they prohibited from allowing those who don't believe from exercising free will. Live and let live abortion won't be compulsory.


  • #2965
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Katie Full Leak wrote: »
    Is that like saying something with human DNA isn't human.perhaps it really is an orange:D

    Please. That whole stretch was so funny. Plc campaigning for oranges. It was gas. Oh The never ending lunacy


  • #2966
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    david75 wrote: »
    Please. That whole stretch was so funny. Plc campaigning for oranges. It was gas. Oh The never ending lunacy

    Can you come back with my post count please?


  • #2967
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    benneca1 wrote: »
    Well doh of course a Christian cannot vote for abortion for herself if she wishes to abide by the rules from the big one in the sky. But are they prohibited from allowing those who don't believe from exercising free will. Live and let live abortion won't be compulsory.

    That’s not the question in the title though.


  • #2968
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    benneca1 wrote: »
    Why not. Why should you force others who don't believe in your God to do what he says. I have no problem with you doing what your God tells you. I do have a problem when your God tells me what to do especially when I don't think he exists. Bit of an impasse really. To be honest we should have gone beyond all this crap by now but we haven't. If i don't believe in god can I sin ? If I don't believe in God are you obliged to stop me sinning ? Should we ban alcohol to stop the sizeable muslin population sinning ? Or pork ? Or blood transfusions for the other loonies Good God give me a bloody break
    I laughed:D

    And why are you asking the God you don't believe in for help? Very inconsistent.


  • #2969
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,528 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    benneca1 wrote: »
    Well doh of course a Christian cannot vote for abortion for herself if she wishes to abide by the rules from the big one in the sky. But are they prohibited from allowing those who don't believe from exercising free will. Live and let live abortion won't be compulsory.

    a christian or anyone can't stop anyone from voting whatever way they wish. morally however if you are a christian then you cannot vote for abortion on demand.
    live and let live is not something that applies here given the reality that abortion is the killing of another human being, and we don't allow live and let live for the killing of other human beings and rightly so. it doesn't matter that abortion won't be compulsory, there is no requirement for it within this state bar medical reasons. if people want an abortion outside medical reasons, then go to england and pay for it, people will disagree with you but people cannot stop you traveling abroad.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #2970
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    Getting back to the original question "can a Christian vote for abortion?". Answer is very simple. Yes they can.


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  • #2971
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,034 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    david75 wrote: »
    SO many replies. So little time.

    If only you each had the same time to commit to helping real children in crisis.

    Or even cared about them.
    MOD NOTE

    Unless you know each poster personally (and how they spend their free) I fail to see the point of this post beyond moral posturing/baiting.

    Please keep to the topic.

    Thanks for your attention.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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