Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

J C · 13-02-2018 11:00PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Did JC not post recently enough saying he voted in favour of the marriage referendum?

Like I have said previously, the marriage referendum was a referendum granting equality ... while the referendum to repeal the 8th is a referendum removing equality (for the unborn).

J C · 13-02-2018 11:10PM

david75 wrote: »

You’re lecturing people from a very very disconnected and distorted reality. And using cartoons and youtube to make the argument. You did all the same hysterical and misleading stuf in the marriage equality campaign I seem to remember.

I did no such thing ... your 'recall' is failing you.

david75 wrote: »

I wish we had a thousand more like you. It’s you guys and this constant nonsense that will win it for repeal.

There will be hundreds of thousands more like me ... when the Irish people fully realise what they are being asked to approve.

J C · 13-02-2018 11:14PM

Bob_Marley wrote: »

"In an interview with the Washington Times in 2009 Nathanson explained: “My switch to pro-life had nothing to do with religion.” Instead he changed his mind purely “based on the scientific evidence ... based on fetoscopies and ultrasound studies.

I agree that being a Human Being, is all that is required, to be apalled at abortion on demand ... no religion required ... although it helps ... particularly when it comes to having compassion for women who are hurting from abortion. As Christians, we are in a unique position to reassure such women that Jesus loves them ... and will forgive and Save them if they just ask.

... here is the woman (Norma McCorvey) whose Supreme Court case (Roe v Wade) struck down every abortion law in America ... and has resulted in 50 million abortions. She also became a Christian and found forgiveness in Jesus Christ, for what she did.
If she can be forgiven (and she was) ... everybody can.

uck51js9zml2yt · 13-02-2018 11:24PM

In case anyone has forgotten what goes on in those 9 months, here's a link to a 4 minute video

https://tvuol.uol.com.br/video/video-resume-gestacao-humana-em-quatro-minutos-04028C9C336AD8A15326

david75 · 13-02-2018 11:37PM

J C wrote: »

I agree that being a Human Being, is all that is required, to be apalled at abortion on demand ... no religion required ... although it helps ... particularly when it comes to having compassion for women who are hurting from abortion. As Christians, we are in a unique position to reassure such women that Jesus loves them ... and will forgive and Save them if they just ask.

... here is the woman (Norma McCorvey) whose Supreme Court case (Roe v Wade) struck down every abortion law in America ... and has resulted in 50 million abortions. She also became a Christian and found forgiveness in Jesus Christ, for what she did.
If she can be forgiven (and she was) ... everybody can.

If just once a day, for one week, you wrote a message that short length with that much belief and outrage and it was about the 3000 children currently homeless and abandoned in and by our state and sent that messag to Varadkar or Coveny, just for one week, you’ll have done more in that week than th entire so called pro like campaign have ever done in their history, for children suffering and starving in Ireland this year.

How is it you guys only care about the ‘baby’ when it isnt actually one yet not one of you give a flying nun about the actual baby whe it’s here? Or the 2 5 7 10 etc years atter??

Stunning hypocrisy

If you’d only spent all this energy on something worthwhile where it could do real good

J C · 13-02-2018 11:45PM

david75 wrote: »

If just once a day, for one week, you wrote a message that short length with that much belief and outrage and it was about the 3000 children currently homeless and abandoned in and by our state and sent that messag to Varadkar or Coveny, just for one week, you’ll have done more in that week than th entire so called pro like campaign have ever done in their history, for children suffering and starving in Ireland this year.

This is not mutually exclusive to being pro-life ... and indeed homelessness is very dear to my heart ... and I have been active in trying to resolve this issue.

david75 wrote: »

How is it you guys only care about the ‘baby’ when it isnt actually one yet not one of you give a flying nun about the actual baby whe it’s here? Or the 2 5 7 10 etc years atter??

Stunning hypocrisy

As Christians, we are concerned about the welfare of everybody ... from conception to natural death.

david75 · 13-02-2018 11:50PM

J C wrote: »

This is not mutually exclusive to being pro-life ... and indeed homelessness is very dear to my heart ... and I have been active in trying to resolve this issue.

As Christians, we are concerned about the welfare of everybody ... from conception to natural death.

Every self appointed Christian mouthpiece ever be it here or in media is breaking the rules of their own faith. You don’t speak for god. He was pretty clear about that in some book he left lying around.
You also don’t care about everybody. If you did truly, the welfare of the mother comes first and no argument. You’re all fighting against this argument.
Further, imposing your faith on many women who either no longer are of your faith or never was part of your faith, is completely wrong and also against the rules of your faith.

Bob_Marley · 14-02-2018 12:03AM

J C wrote: »

I agree that being a Human Being, is all that is required, to be apalled at abortion on demand ... no religion required ... although it helps ... particularly when it comes to having compassion for women who are hurting from abortion. As Christians, we are in a unique position to reassure such women that Jesus loves them ... and will forgive and Save them if they just ask.

... here is the woman (Norma McCorvey) whose Supreme Court case (Roe v Wade) struck down every abortion law in America ... and has resulted in 50 million abortions. She also became a Christian and found forgiveness in Jesus Christ, for what she did.
If she can be forgiven (and she was) ... everybody can.

Shocking, or perhaps not, how the pro abortion lobby got away with exploiting that poor woman Norma McCorvey[Wade] in the Roe vs Wade case, and how she never found out the full truth untill years later.

david75 · 14-02-2018 12:10AM

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Shocking, or perhaps not, how the pro abortion lobby got away with exploiting that poor woman Norma McCorvey[Wade] in the Roe vs Wade case, and how she never found out the full truth untill years later.

Exploitation?
Your campaign is literally running ads and billboards of babies and Down’s syndrome children and even after being directed and asked not to.

Do you know what exploitation means?

Bob_Marley · 14-02-2018 12:13AM

david75 wrote: »

Exploitation?
Your campaign is literally running ads and billboards of babies and Down’s syndrome children and even after being directed and asked not to.

Do you know what exploitation means?

I'm sure, the last thing you want people to see is the innocent child that will be killed.

david75 · 14-02-2018 12:25AM

Bob_Marley wrote: »

I'm sure, the last thing you want people to see is the innocent child that will be killed.

Or raped and beaten by priests or sold away to foreign countries by nuns. They’re not allowed do that anymore and the church is still hiding them that did it.
The church is no longer allowed dictate to the people of the state thankfully.

If you can’t respect the wishes of those asking you not to use their pictures as a depraved tactic in your campaign, your campaign has no respect from anyone and will fail.

end of the road · 14-02-2018 12:26AM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Can we please stop with the cartoons they are clearly used in a move to be emotionally manipulative and it’s very annoying.

if people want abortion on demand to be availible so badly they should be willing to see the realities. the truth, no matter how uncomfortable, should never be hidden. especially when it comes to an issue like this.

david75 wrote: »

You’re lecturing people from a very very disconnected and distorted reality. And using cartoons and youtube to make the argument. You did all the same hysterical and misleading stuf in the marriage equality campaign I seem to remember.
I wish we had a thousand more like you. It’s you guys and this constant nonsense that will win it for repeal. Shooting your position in the face.

Nobody is falling for it JC.

he is lecturing people from a hugely connected reality, based on accurate information. the marriage equality referendum isn't relevant to this debate as nobody dies if gay people are allowed to marry, whereas the unborn die with abortion.
pro-life posters giving the facts and realities won't win anything for repeal. our position is not being shot in the face, it is perfectly fine. plenty of people are willing to listen to the facts even if they are uncomfortable. the only thing that would win it for repeal is enough people seeing the unborn as lesser then the rest of us in society, just like society saw unmarried and single mothers and their children before them as lesser then the rest of society. it doesn't bear thinking about that the same mistakes as the past could be made again with more innocence.

david75 wrote: »

If just once a day, for one week, you wrote a message that short length with that much belief and outrage and it was about the 3000 children currently homeless and abandoned in and by our state and sent that messag to Varadkar or Coveny, just for one week, you’ll have done more in that week than th entire so called pro like campaign have ever done in their history, for children suffering and starving in Ireland this year.

How is it you guys only care about the ‘baby’ when it isnt actually one yet not one of you give a flying nun about the actual baby whe it’s here? Or the 2 5 7 10 etc years atter??

Stunning hypocrisy

If you’d only spent all this energy on something worthwhile where it could do real good

how do you know pro-life people aren't campaigning on other issues as well as the unborn. what exactly are you doing yourself in relation to addressing the issue of homeless children. the pro-life are doing something worth while by campaigning for the protections for the unborn to remain.

david75 wrote: »

Every self appointed Christian mouthpiece ever be it here or in media is breaking the rules of their own faith. You don’t speak for god. He was pretty clear about that in some book he left lying around.
You also don’t care about everybody. If you did truly, the welfare of the mother comes first and no argument. You’re all fighting against this argument.
Further, imposing your faith on many women who either no longer are of your faith or never was part of your faith, is completely wrong and also against the rules of your faith.

the wellfare of both mother and baby come first, except where the mother's life is under threat, or she is under threat of permanent injury or disability.

david75 wrote: »

Exploitation?
Your campaign is literally running ads and billboards of babies and Down’s syndrome children and even after being directed and asked not to.

Do you know what exploitation means?

yes, they are giving the facts. one group asked them not to do it, which they are entitled to ask, but not to get. ds babies are at huge risk from abortiion on demand and that must be hi-lighted. the truth must be told, the eliberal agenda must not be allowed to hide the truth.

end of the road · 14-02-2018 12:31AM

david75 wrote: »

Or raped and beaten by priests or sold away to foreign countries by nuns. They’re not allowed do that anymore and the church is still hiding them that did it.
The church is no longer allowed dictate to the people of the state thankfully.

If you can’t respect the wishes of those asking you not to use their pictures as a depraved tactic in your campaign, your campaign has no respect from anyone and will fail.

the campaign has a lot of respect and won't fail, even if the 8th is repealed. as long as it gets people to see the reality, then it has succeeded. and succeed in getting people to see the reality, it will.
what the church did in the past, something i completely agree with all your views on, isn't relevant to this debate. only the religion itself is relevant given we are discussing it from a christian perspective. but there are many varients of christianity.

Bob_Marley · 14-02-2018 12:35AM

end of the road wrote: »

the campaign has a lot of respect and won't fail, even if the 8th is repealed. as long as it gets people to see the reality, then it has succeeded. and succeed in getting people to see the reality, it will.
what the church did in the past, something i completely agree with all your views on, isn't relevant to this debate. only the religion itself is relevant given we are discussing it from a christian perspective. but there are many varients of christianity.

Resorting to stoking as much hatred as possible towards people of faith is yet more, and a quite telling ad homien / red herring.

You don't need to be religious to respect innocent human life.

david75 · 14-02-2018 12:37AM

end of the road wrote: »

if people want abortion on demand to be availible so badly they should be willing to see the realities. the truth, no matter how uncomfortable, should never be hidden. especially when it comes to an issue like this.

he is lecturing people from a hugely connected reality, based on accurate information. the marriage equality referendum isn't relevant to this debate as nobody dies if gay people are allowed to marry, whereas the unborn die with abortion.
pro-life posters giving the facts and realities won't win anything for repeal. our position is not being shot in the face, it is perfectly fine. plenty of people are willing to listen to the facts even if they are uncomfortable. the only thing that would win it for repeal is enough people seeing the unborn as lesser then the rest of us in society, just like society saw unmarried and single mothers and their children before them as lesser then the rest of society. it doesn't bear thinking about that the same mistakes as the past could be made again with more innocence.

how do you know pro-life people aren't campaigning on other issues as well as the unborn. what exactly are you doing yourself in relation to addressing the issue of homeless children. the pro-life are doing something worth while by campaigning for the protections for the unborn to remain.

the wellfare of both mother and baby come first, except where the mother's life is under threat, or she is under threat of permanent injury or disability.

yes, they are giving the facts. one group asked them not to do it, which they are entitled to ask, but not to get. ds babies are at huge risk from abortiion on demand and that must be hi-lighted. the truth must be told, the eliberal agenda must not be allowed to hide the truth.

There is no liberal agenda. If there is can you point me towards a manifesto or mission statement? Are they an organised group? No?
There is however a redundant dead faith and it’s few remaining minions saying that their rights and beliefs are of more importance in law than a woman’s right to bodily autonomy and self determination.

We have a few months of this ahead and it’s like you guys are playing silly buggers and endless hysteria, while the entire rest of the country looks on rolling their eyes and wondering when you’ll all realise.
(Eg. Thousands of Women are stillgoing to have abortions post ref, pass or fail. You guys don’t seem to realise that. It’ll still happen. You’re playing the wrong game completely)
By then It will be too late.

J C · 14-02-2018 12:46AM

david75 wrote: »

Or raped and beaten by priests or sold away to foreign countries by nuns. They’re not allowed do that anymore.

You have answered your own statement about the RCC.
... and thereby showed your post to be completely irrelevant to the OP issue which is facing all Christians (and others) in the forthcoming referendum.

david75 · 14-02-2018 12:47AM

Ps if you could show me even one instance ad article clip or quote etc of anyone from the pro life campaign organising to raise awareness for the homeless children in our state? I’d love to see it.

Surely with their considerable fundraising abilities and media reach we would have heard at least one pro life campaign member take some time to talk about their tireless efforts and naturally disclose the amount they had raised to help?

Bob_Marley · 14-02-2018 12:54AM

david75 wrote: »

Ps if you could show me even one instance ad article clip or quote etc of anyone from the pro life campaign organising to raise awareness for the homeless children in our state? I’d love to see it.

Surely with their considerable fundraising abilities and media reach we would have heard at least one pro life campaign member take some time to talk about their tireless efforts and naturally disclose the amount they had raised to help?

There are numerous Catholic/Christian charities that help children and homeless all over the world.

Your new found concern for children lives is touching . . .but not very convincing.

added at dave's request

J C · 14-02-2018 12:54AM

david75 wrote: »

There is no liberal agenda. If there is can you point me towards a manifesto or mission statement? Are they an organised group? No?
There is however a redundant dead faith and it’s few remaining minions saying that their rights and beliefs are of more importance in law than a woman’s right to bodily autonomy and self determination.

We have a few months of this ahead and it’s like you guys are playing silly buggers and endless hysteria, while the entire rest of the country looks on rolling their eyes and wondering when you’ll all realise.
(Eg. Thousands of Women are stillgoing to have abortions post ref, pass or fail. You guys don’t seem to realise that. It’ll still happen. You’re playing the wrong game completely)
By then It will be too late.

If the 8th isn't repealed it will be an important victory ... but it will only be a victory of sorts for the pro-life movement ...
... several thousand Irish women travelling to England each year for abortions or using poisonous pills to induce abortion, will still be a reality in Ireland.

... and it is ultimately the hearts and minds of these women that needs to be influenced and changed, if the curse of abortion is to be lifted in Ireland.

The people in pro-life aren't always the people you would expect ... and the movement has people of all faiths and none ... as well as women who have had abortions and were deeply hurt by them ... something that wasn't the case years ago.

... so the times they are a changin' ... and that includes attitudes towards abortion ... which somebody (correctly) described as a brutal and medieval form of birth control ... that has little or no place in the modern world.

... and replacing the wire coat hanger or the knitting needle with a stethescope, may make abortion somewhat safer for the woman ... but the procedure is just as deadly for her child ... and just as brutal on the woman's body, spirit and conscience.

end of the road · 14-02-2018 01:00AM

david75 wrote: »

There is no liberal agenda. If there is can you point me towards a manifesto or mission statement? Are they an organised group? No?
There is however a redundant dead faith and it’s few remaining minions saying that their rights and beliefs are of more importance in law than a woman’s right to bodily autonomy and self determination.

We have a few months of this ahead and it’s like you guys are playing silly buggers and endless hysteria, while the entire rest of the country looks on rolling their eyes and wondering when you’ll all realise.
(Eg. Thousands of Women are stillgoing to have abortions post ref, pass or fail. You guys don’t seem to realise that. It’ll still happen. You’re playing the wrong game completely)
By then It will be too late.

everyone's bodily autonomy is restricted to an extent, where exercising it will harm others. this is the same for the mother who wants to kill her unborn child outside medical necessity. we are playing the right game by giving the facts out, regardless of whether it is or isn't popular, and regardless of the fact they may be uncomfortable. pro-life have a duty not to lie to people and we haven't done it. even if the 8th is repealed, pro-life will win the war against abortion. it may take years, maybe even decades, but we will win.

david75 · 14-02-2018 01:11AM

J C wrote: »

If the 8th isn't repealed it will be an important victory ... but it will only be a victory of sorts for the pro-life movement ...
... several thousand Irish women travelling to England each year for abortions or using poisonous pills to induce abortion, will still be a reality in Ireland.

... and it is ultimately the hearts and minds of these women that needs to be influenced and changed, if the curse of abortion is to be lifted in Ireland.

The people in pro-life aren't always the people you would expect ... and the movement has people of all faiths and none.

Again with the complete lack of understanding. What do the hearts and minds of women ‘needs to be changed’ to exactly? Back to baby homes? Forced adoption? Nuns stealing babies and selling them?

You at least acknowledge it’ll be totally hollow ‘victory’ for the no campaign and continuously damaging the women of Ireland. They will continue to have abortions and in growing numbers.

We could force the 5-10,000 Women a year to have the babies and take them off them. Then get our state which is doing such a great job looking after the children already here and families in emergency accommodation to make homes for them. New orphanages. Maybe even keep them there all their lives under cruel conditions never allowed leave and no access to health care or education in the real world. Throw them in a sewer if they’re too sick to be of any use.
Make them be our her generation of priest and nun factories. Ill gotten children redeemed and come to save us all.

Im sure I’ve heard all this before in some mad story I read. I can’t for the life of me remember where. Oh yeah. Ireland. The last century.

david75 · 14-02-2018 01:15AM

Bob_Marley wrote: »

There are numerous Catholic/Christian charities that help children and homeless all over the world.

Your new found concern for children lives is touching . . .but not very convincing.

It seems these people can only communicate through cartoons.
And none of them animated. *theyre clearly not the brightest.

Bob_Marley · 14-02-2018 01:19AM

david75 wrote: »

It seems these people can only communicate through cartoons.
And none of them animated. *theyre clearly not the brightest.

If you don't like cartoons, steer clear of the atheism forum, they are beloved there.

david75 wrote: »

i make furniture and interiors and oddments out of pallets etc..https://www.facebook.com/woodenideas75

PS genuinely love your use of recycled timber and pallets. (but then again apparently I'm not the brightest

)

J C · 14-02-2018 01:23AM

david75 wrote: »

Again with the complete lack of understanding. What do the hearts and minds of women ‘needs to be changed’ to exactly? Back to baby homes? Forced adoption? Nuns stealing babies and selling them?

You at least acknowledge it’ll be totally hollow ‘victory’ for the no campaign and continuously damaging the women of Ireland. They will continue to have abortions and in growing numbers.

We could force the 5-10,000 Women a year to have the babies and take them off them. Then get our state which is doing such a great job looking after the children already here and families in emergency accommodation to make homes for them. New orphanages. Maybe even keep them there all their lives under cruel conditions never allowed leave and no access to health care or education in the real world. Throw them in a sewer if they’re too sick to be of any use.
Make them be our her generation of priest and nun factories. Ill gotten children redeemed and come to save us all.

Im sure I’ve heard all this before in some mad story I read. I can’t for the life of me remember where. Oh yeah. Ireland. The last century.

Your posts are like something out of Fr Ted ... or some other 'stage irish' show.

The first thing is that there are practically no nuns of priests (of working age) left in Ireland ... so as a country, we will have to grow up and start facing the unpleasant reality of abortion in Ireland ourselves ... i.e. all of the Irish people ourselves.
We now have no clerical scapegoats left in the Roman Catholic Church to heap all of the sins of our society onto ... so we will have to face up to these sins ourselves alone.
... and start taking positve steps to support women in crisis pregnancies ... and to offer really positve options for her and her child ... rather than the 'council of despair' that abortion truly is, for both the mother and her child.
... and men will need to 'man-up' and stop behaving like juveniles, or worse, when it comes to helping their girlfriends and wives avoid crisis pregnancy ... and supporting them, if they do become pregnant.

david75 · 14-02-2018 01:25AM

Bob_Marley wrote: »

If you don't like cartoons, steer clear of the atheism forum, they are beloved there.

PS genuinely love your use of recycled timber and pallets. (but then again apparently I'm not the brightest )

So you’re stalking now? Not weird at all given this particular thread beng about intruding in others lives. I’d like to tell a few people to get off their crosses I could use the wood but same time it’s none of my business if they choose to crucify themselves with such outdated and myopic arguments...the hills they choose to die on.

end of the road · 14-02-2018 01:27AM

david75 wrote: »

Again with the complete lack of understanding. What do the hearts and minds of women ‘needs to be changed’ to exactly? Back to baby homes? Forced adoption? Nuns stealing babies and selling them?

You at least acknowledge it’ll be totally hollow ‘victory’ for the no campaign and continuously damaging the women of Ireland. They will continue to have abortions and in growing numbers.

We could force the 5-10,000 Women a year to have the babies and take them off them. Then get our state which is doing such a great job looking after the children already here and families in emergency accommodation to make homes for them. New orphanages. Maybe even keep them there all their lives under cruel conditions never allowed leave and no access to health care or education in the real world. Throw them in a sewer if they’re too sick to be of any use.
Make them be our her generation of priest and nun factories. Ill gotten children redeemed and come to save us all.

Im sure I’ve heard all this before in some mad story I read. I can’t for the life of me remember where. Oh yeah. Ireland. The last century.

the number of abortions is nothing near to 5000. about 2000 to 3000 is what is claimed, and most likely it's a lot less then that now as the numbers are apparently falling. many people of a religion and non-religious agree that how single and non-married mothers and their children were treated was beyond abhorrent, but the abortion debate has nothing to do with what happened those people. abortion on demand is not the solution to the state's failings, improving the systems is the only solution. there aren't going to be mother and baby homes again in ireland and even if there were, they wouldn't be run by the church.

david75 · 14-02-2018 01:31AM

J C wrote: »

Your posts are like something out of Fr Ted ... or some other 'stage irish' show.

The first thing is that there are practically no nuns of priests (of working age) left in Ireland ... so as a country, we will have to grow up and start facing the unpleasant reality of abortion in Ireland ourselves ... i.e. all of the Irish people ourselves.
We now have no clerical scapegoats left in the Roman Catholic Church to heap all of the sins of out society onto ... so we will have to face up to these sins ourselves alone.
... and start taking positve steps to support women in crisis pregnancies ... and to offer really positve options for her and her child ... rather than the 'council of despair' that abortion truly is.

Haha:) careful now. Down with that sort of thing.

Said a forced birther to a pro choicer

No. YOU will have to grow up and accept the reality of abortion (the rest of the country had decades ago)

Positive steps to helping women in crisis pregnancy would involve presenting all available medical and psychological and financial options and advice and ongoing counselling in either decision, unbiased and unfettered. So you guys are COMPLETELY out of the picture already

Bob_Marley · 14-02-2018 01:37AM

david75 wrote: »

So you’re stalking now? Not weird at all given this particular thread beng about intruding in others lives. I’d like to tell a few people to get off their crosses I could use the wood but same time it’s none of my business if they choose to crucify themselves with such outdated and myopic arguments...the hills they choose to die on.

just a quick off topic . . Jesus was also carpenter . . and it often shows up in some of his choice of phrases.

"For if they do these things when the wood is green, what will happen when it is dry?” - Luke 23:31

God being influenced by, and pondering carpentry, mind blowing if you really think about it . . .

end of the road · 14-02-2018 01:58AM

david75 wrote: »

Haha careful now. Down with that sort of thing.

Said a forced birther to a pro choicer

No. YOU will have to grow up and accept the reality of abortion (the rest of the country had decades ago)

Positive steps to helping women in crisis pregnancy would involve presenting all available medical and psychological and financial options and advice and ongoing counselling in either decision, unbiased and unfettered. So you guys are COMPLETELY out of the picture already

there are no forced birthers in the pro-life movement. the pro-life movement grew up decades ago unlike a good number of those in the pro-choice movement with their simplistic statements and denial of facts and dehumanisation of the unborn. the pro-life movement is not out of the picture at all in relation to giving advice in relation to a crisis pregnancy.

david75 · 14-02-2018 02:01AM

Bob_Marley wrote: »

just a quick off topic . . Jesus was also carpenter . . and it often shows up in some of his choice of phrases.

"For if they do these things when the wood is green, what will happen when it is dry?” - Luke 23:31

God being influenced by, and pondering carpentry, mind blowing if you really think about it . . .

Jesus opined on many topics. Weirdly none of them included abortion or homosexuality or how to cut a perfect butterfly joint.

I always thought the joke nobody seemed to get was he was actually was the son of a carpenter (apprentice at best) spending his last day of life on a crudely made cross. Probably imported wood. That must have stung. Apart from the obvious.
Bloody Romans. Comin over there with their cheap wood shoddy crosses and globalisation.

Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

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