Can we pool our knowledge regarding TAX and crypto and make some kind of FAQ/sticky?

Fakent.ie · 07-02-2018 02:32PM

Noctifer wrote: »

They changed the rules then? I know before I moved to Ireland I was reading up on it and what I got from it crypto was exempt if help over 1 year with the FIFO system.

No thats wrong what he wrote 100%, its still hold for 1 year and you do not get taxed

relax carry on · 07-02-2018 03:06PM

Noctifer wrote: »

There is a non existent list of people who get away with it and have been getting away with it for years. Too bad Revenue can't publish that list.

You are aware that the published list represents a fraction of those who fell on the wrong side of Revenue. The published list are those who met the criteria for publication including not making a disclosure.

As others have pointed out depending on how long it is before your evasion is discovered you will have the the original tax due to be paid plus interest plus penalties which could see a sizeable chunk of your gain gone.

Noctifer · 07-02-2018 03:13PM

relax carry on wrote: »

As others have pointed out depending on how long it is before your evasion is discovered you will have the the original tax due to be paid plus interest plus penalties which could see a sizeable chunk of your gain gone.

I am well aware of the penalties and they are actual not as bad as in my home country. That's why my tax evasion method would be based on not touching the money till I am out of Ireland for a few years. There would be no reason for Revenue to audit a non resident, especially if he has no house/car and no suspicious activity on any bank accounts.

Thankfully the money I make from crypto is for long term savings (retirement and such) and it's fine if I can't touch it for decades.

barneystinson · 07-02-2018 03:30PM

Noctifer wrote: »

I am well aware of the penalties and they are actual not as bad as in my home country. That's why my tax evasion method would be based on not touching the money till I am out of Ireland for a few years. There would be no reason for Revenue to audit a non resident, especially if he has no house/car and no suspicious activity on any bank accounts.

Thankfully the money I make from crypto is for long term savings (retirement and such) and it's fine if I can't touch it for decades.

That's all grand for you, a person who is effectively only a temporary resident of Ireland. For someone who has their life, roots and long term future in Ireland, your attitude would be hugely dangerous, potentially financially ruinous.

barneystinson · 07-02-2018 03:34PM

A real elephant in the room here could be people who bought in early - mid 2017, did some crypto to crypto trading later in 2017 that realised substantial gains & CGT liabilities, and subsequently lost or lose their shirts if prices continue to fall away.

They'll have a big CGT bill for 2017 and no means to pay it... and losses in 2018 can't be set back against gains from 2017.

Noctifer · 07-02-2018 03:36PM

barneystinson wrote: »

That's all grand for you, a person who is effectively only a temporary resident of Ireland. For someone who has their life, roots and long term future in Ireland, your attitude would be hugely dangerous, potentially financially ruinous.

Yep, that's why I actually plan to do it properly in Ireland as long as it's not a massive headache (have to file it under income tax and have potential issues with employer).

I also asked before and no one answered, but does anyone actually know a company for help with filling the taxes?

I did contact an accounting company but there would not help me in regards to crypto.

McCrack · 07-02-2018 08:57PM

barneystinson wrote: »

A real elephant in the room here could be people who bought in early - mid 2017, did some crypto to crypto trading later in 2017 that realised substantial gains & CGT liabilities, and subsequently lost or lose their shirts if prices continue to fall away.

They'll have a big CGT bill for 2017 and no means to pay it... and losses in 2018 can't be set back against gains from 2017.

Are you the boards.ie resident tax snitch?

relax carry on · 07-02-2018 09:27PM

McCrack wrote: »

Are you the boards.ie resident tax snitch?

It's an open discussion forum? You have difficulties with someone pointing out that some people with cryptocurrency assets may encounter difficulties meeting their tax obligations due to the volatile nature of cryptocurrencys? No one should really undertake any sort of business/trading/additional income streams without considering and making provision for potential tax liabilities. Professional advice should always be sought if the income is material.

McCrack · 07-02-2018 09:39PM

relax carry on wrote: »

It's an open discussion forum? You have difficulties with someone pointing out that some people with cryptocurrency assets may encounter difficulties meeting their tax obligations due to the volatile nature of cryptocurrencys? No one should really undertake any sort of business/trading/additional income steams without considering and making provision for potential tax liabilities. Professional advice should always be sought if the income is material.

What utter sense.

I commend you sir

barneystinson · 07-02-2018 10:01PM

McCrack wrote: »

Are you the boards.ie resident tax snitch?

Lol, where's the snitching in that?!

But yes, given half a chance, absolutely

McCrack · 07-02-2018 10:20PM

Are you working for Revenue?

nxbyveromdwjpg · 07-02-2018 11:22PM

relax carry on wrote: »

It's an open discussion forum? You have difficulties with someone pointing out that some people with cryptocurrency assets may encounter difficulties meeting their tax obligations due to the volatile nature of cryptocurrencys? No one should really undertake any sort of business/trading/additional income streams without considering and making provision for potential tax liabilities. Professional advice should always be sought if the income is material.

It's hardly unexpected that some people would find a revenue inspector licking his lips with glee at the prospect of destroying people with a large tax bill, especially those that can't afford to pay it, a bit off-putting.

Fakent.ie · 07-02-2018 11:26PM

Amirah Cold Cafe wrote: »

It's hardly unexpected that some people would find a revenue inspector licking his lips with glee at the prospect of destroying people with a large tax bill, especially those that can't afford to pay it, a bit off-putting.

I think more people would be inclined to pay if it wasn't taxed on crypto/crypto

Cryptonovice · 07-02-2018 11:55PM

Since it is crypto to crypto..Would anyone care to do an example...Just say Coinbase to Binance...You buy Ethereum (ETH) on coinbase, within 30mins send it to Binance and swap for Ripple (XRP)...Does one have to search for the price of the XRP coin at that timeyou swapped it?

barneystinson · 08-02-2018 01:08AM

McCrack wrote: »

Are you working for Revenue?

I doubt anyone is working for Revenue when they're on Boards...

barneystinson · 08-02-2018 01:18AM

Amirah Cold Cafe wrote: »

It's hardly unexpected that some people would find a revenue inspector licking his lips with glee at the prospect of destroying people with a large tax bill, especially those that can't afford to pay it, a bit off-putting.

Who's licking their lips?

"Elephant in the room is an English-language metaphorical idiom for an obvious problem or risk that no one wants to discuss, or a condition of groupthink that no one wants to challenge."

I'm trying to move the conversation on from the endless nonsense that's dogged it so far.

Peregrinus · 08-02-2018 02:33AM

Cryptonovice wrote: »

Since it is crypto to crypto..Would anyone care to do an example...Just say Coinbase to Binance...You buy Ethereum (ETH) on coinbase, within 30mins send it to Binance and swap for Ripple (XRP)...Does one have to search for the price of the XRP coin at that timeyou swapped it?

Not necessarily. I think you can use any reasonable method of valuing the assets involved as long as you use the same method consistently across all your transactions.

I seem to recall - I could be quite wrong here - that in relation to foreign exchange transactions, if you have a lot of them the Revenue are happy with calculations done on the basis of the mid-point of the daily range of the relevant exchange rate, or on the closing price each day, rather than on the basis of the actual rate that was being quoted at the instant your transactions settled. My guess is that they would be happy with a similar approach to crypto transactions, if a taxpayer wished to use it.

Here is an online chart which shows a price for ETH, expressed in USD, for every day since the currrency was introduced. Here is the same chart for Ripple. Data like this certainly exists, and is readily obtainable; I found these charts by googling. My guess is that the Revenue would be happy with calculations which rely on daily data from sources like these. If you wanted to use more specific data because it gives you a better tax outcome, the Revenue would be happy with that too, provided you use it consistently.

Added on edit: In the example given, where the taxpayer buys ETH and then trade it for XRP the same day, if the daily average price/closing price approach is used then the ETH will be treated as bought and sold at the same price, so no gain/no loss. In effect, you could treat the cash amount paid to acquire the ETH holding as the acquisition cost of the XRP holding.

Peregrinus · 08-02-2018 03:30AM

barneystinson wrote: »

A real elephant in the room here could be people who bought in early - mid 2017, did some crypto to crypto trading later in 2017 that realised substantial gains & CGT liabilities, and subsequently lost or lose their shirts if prices continue to fall away.

Yup. Hindsight is a wonderful teacher, but obviously if you dispose of an asset and realise a gain, you need to make a provision for the associated tax liability. Reinvesting the entire proceeds of the disposal in a highly volatile asset creates the risk that, by the time tax payment date comes around, you'll have lost the proceeds, or much of them. So don't do this, kids, unless you have other resources out of which you can pay the tax, if necessary.

barneystinson wrote: »

They'll have a big CGT bill for 2017 and no means to pay it... and losses in 2018 can't be set back against gains from 2017.

Indeed. The usual strategy in this circumstance is to argue that your pattern of investment dealing had sufficient frequency, regularity, system, etc to amount to a trade, and therefore the losses are deductible for income tax purposes. For obvious reasons, the Revenue normally strongly resist this argument.

Noctifer · 08-02-2018 09:08AM

Does Revenue usually ask where the money comes from we use for trading?

I made good gains last year, but since I am not a tax resident in Ireland last year I won't report the tax for that here. However, I won't report it either in my home country as they don't consider it a gain till I actually cashed it out to a local bank account (asked accountant about it, the fact that I cashed out this year on an Ireland account does not count as a gain).

So, would I ever need some kind of justification of where the money came from? Would they care even though the money was illegally acquired?

McCrack · 08-02-2018 09:38AM

barneystinson wrote: »

I doubt anyone is working for Revenue when they're on Boards...

Lol okay, ill put the question another way..

Do you work as a tax collector when you are not moonlighting on boards?

Halflifept · 08-02-2018 01:05PM

The form CG1 for 2017 is already available.
https://www.revenue.ie/en/gains-gifts-and-inheritance/documents/formcg1.pdf

Tinder Surprise · 08-02-2018 06:05PM

Purely hypothetical question....

Whats stopping someone transferring back to FIAT and depositing say into a Revolut card/account

I get its 100% tax avoidance.

GreeBo · 08-02-2018 06:15PM

Tinder Surprise wrote: »

Purely hypothetical question....

Whats stopping someone transferring back to FIAT and depositing say into a Revolut card/account

I get its 100% tax avoidance.

Whats to stop someone not paying any CGT?

AlmightyCushion · 08-02-2018 06:26PM

Tinder Surprise wrote: »

Purely hypothetical question....

Whats stopping someone transferring back to FIAT and depositing say into a Revolut card/account

I get its 100% tax avoidance.

If that someone is doing so to avoid paying taxes then it's tax evasion not tax avoidance. Evasion is illegal, avoidance is not. There's nothing stopping them doing it. Do Revolut report things like this to Revenue like other banks do? I think they do. But if they currently don't, then they may do in the future.

GreeBo · 08-02-2018 06:31PM

I guess the whole point is that its self assessment, so there is nothing forcing anyone to pay CGT.

However, there are huge fines for getting caught so...

Fakent.ie · 08-02-2018 07:05PM

GreeBo wrote: »

I guess the whole point is that its self assessment, so there is nothing forcing anyone to pay CGT.

However, there are huge fines for getting caught so...

so its "pay" or they take the 33% and more, really doesnt sound like paying to me

ZeroThreat · 08-02-2018 07:20PM

Fakent.ie wrote: »

so its "pay" or they take the 33% and more, really doesnt sound like paying to me

It's pretty much pay tax or lose it all and more in most countries of the world.

Ireland isn't unique in that regard.

relax carry on · 08-02-2018 08:10PM

Tinder Surprise wrote: »

Purely hypothetical question....

Whats stopping someone transferring back to FIAT and depositing say into a Revolut card/account

I get its 100% tax avoidance.

Nothing. And that's not tax avoidance. Failing to declare your gains/profit for taxation purposes is tax evasion. Tax avoidance is something else.

thegolfer · 08-02-2018 09:31PM

relax carry on wrote: »

Nothing. And that's not tax avoidance. Failing to declare your gains/profit for taxation purposes is tax evasion. Tax avoidance is something else.

Tax avoidance is the effective structuring of your affairs so as to legally minimise your tax exposure within the parameters of the tax laws..

sunrainmooncl · 08-02-2018 10:43PM

Cryptonovice wrote: »

I got this reply from revenue today. I have deleted my name and the lady who replied to me for privacy purposes. They took 4 weeks to reply initially to my first query and 3 days to reply to my second question which is answered below.

Dear ....., If you sell, gift or exchange your cryptocurrency, this is considered to be a disposal. Capital Gains Tax is payable on any gain you may make at the time of disposal. For disposals made between 1 January and 30 November (the initial period) you must pay CGT by 15 December of the same year. For disposals made between 1 December and 31 December (the later period) you must pay CGT by 31 January of the next year. Further information on the how you calculate and pay Capital Gains Tax can be found on our website; www.revenue.ie Kind regards,..

So I guess thats it finally, Peregrinus, Greebo et al. you were spot on...I had a feeling you were. Anyway, can we please use this thread now for advise purposes because there is people here who know what they are talking about and people who dont have experience in this area (Like myself)

Sound. Now if I disposed of BTC for 400 euro.. do I pay that in CGT tax and then get refunded in tax credits (because it's below the 1200ish relief amount) or... what?

Can we pool our knowledge regarding TAX and crypto and make some kind of FAQ/sticky?

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