New England Patriots Thread Mod Warning Post #253

Son Of A Vidic · 06-02-2018 02:49PM

Big Pussy Bonpensiero wrote: »

Because his replacements, the players behind him in the depth chart, the players that are widely recognised to be inferior to him, played crap and were a clear weak link. Rowe was clearly being targeted with great frequency and success. There were about 3 cases when Rowe and Bademosi were directly and solely responsible for a TD or 3rd down conversion. A better player, in this case Butler, could have ended one of those drives or stopped a TD.

The problem is you're talking there about the 2016 Malcolm Butler and not the 2017 version of him. If you look at it again, Rowe's coverage on the TD he gave up was absolutely excellent. He could not have covered his man any better. Now Rowe is 2 inches taller than Butler, so I'm going to go ahead and say Butler couldn't have done any better. But as I've already said, I do think Butler should have play a lot more than he did.

AbusesToilets · 06-02-2018 02:54PM

Son Of A Vidic wrote: »

The problem is you're talking there about the 2016 Malcolm Butler and not the 2017 version of him. If you look at it again, Rowe's coverage on the TD he gave up was absolutely excellent. He could not have covered his man any better. Now Rowe is 2 inches taller than Butler, so I'm going to go ahead and say Butler couldn't have done any better. But as I've already said, I do think Butler should have play a lot more than he did.

For me, it's the whiffed tackle on Agholor by Bademosi. If Butler's in, he makes that and maybe that's the win right there.

TOss Sweep · 06-02-2018 02:56PM

Son Of A Vidic wrote: »

The problem is you're talking there about the 2016 Malcolm Butler and not the 2017 version of him. If you look at it again, Rowe's coverage on the TD he gave up was absolutely excellent. He could not have covered his man any better. Now Rowe is 2 inches taller than Butler, so I'm going to go ahead and say Butler couldn't have done any better. But as I've already said, I do think Butler should have play a lot more than he did.

I'm sorry but Rowe was horrible on Sunday. He had maybe 2 good plays in him but the Eagles targeted him all night long and when we brought Richards or Bademosi on they targeted them also. Having Butler on the field gives us our 3 best corners on the field for Pass Coverage sets and not having to use Richards or Bademosi.

Butler was not as bad as everyone makes out this season. he had some bad games but so did Gilmore as did our whole secondary. That aside I do think Butler would have been much better than Rowe when it mattered in the Bowl

TOss Sweep · 06-02-2018 02:57PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

For me, it's the whiffed tackle on Agholor by Bademosi. If Butler's in, he makes that and maybe that's the win right there.

Exactly this Butler to credit to him has been excellent with open field tackles this year. Also on that play it would have been Butler Rowe and Gilmore on the field and our secondary at its strongest.

Son Of A Vidic · 06-02-2018 03:03PM

bruschi wrote: »

Also, this whole "In Bill we trust" is a load of dung. Coaches and players arent infallible. If they make a mistake, they have to be accountable for it. It doesnt mean they are poor or that they should be cast to the scrapheap, but having a good record behind you is not an excuse for making dumb decisions.

I agree with all of that but I would suggest that one person is infallible and that player is Tom Brady. And the franchise, the coaching staff and all of us fans owe him everything. Belichick might be The GOAT coach, but having The GOAT on the field is what got the job done. And here once again was the 40 year old GOAT doing his job, as he has always has done for us. But unfortunately on the sideline, was Belichick & Patricia not doing their job.

AbusesToilets · 06-02-2018 03:16PM

Son Of A Vidic wrote: »

I agree with all of that but I would suggest that one person is infallible and that player is Tom Brady. And the franchise, the coaching staff and all of us fans owe him everything. Belichick might be The GOAT coach, but having The GOAT on the field is what got the job done. And here once again was the 40 year old GOAT doing his job, as he has always has done for us. But unfortunately on the sideline, was Belichick & Patricia not doing their job.

I wonder for Brady, will this loss hurt more than others? He played his arguably best game ever, against one of the best defenses in recent memory. Insane to think we lost a game where he threw for 505yd, 3td and no INT.

Son Of A Vidic · 06-02-2018 03:22PM

TOss Sweep wrote: »

I'm sorry but Rowe was horrible on Sunday. He had maybe 2 good plays in him but the Eagles targeted him all night long and when we brought Richards or Bademosi on they targeted them also. Having Butler on the field gives us our 3 best corners on the field for Pass Coverage sets and not having to use Richards or Bademosi.

Butler was not as bad as everyone makes out this season. he had some bad games but so did Gilmore as did our whole secondary. That aside I do think Butler would have been much better than Rowe when it mattered in the Bowl

Butler wasn't that bad? Sorry, he played like a player all season who didn't deserve the money Gilmore got. And Gilmore? Well that kid really started showing up with it mattered. His batted away pass in the AFC title game was worth his contract price alone. But I do think Butler should have played, because it always possible he might pull off another play like he did before. And yes, it was obvious Rowe was targeted but his TD coverage couldn't have been better and I mentioned it because it was a scoring play. You can also be sure that if Butler was playing, he also would have been targeted. Why? Well apart from him not playing great, everybody knows that Butler has no catch up speed, get behind him and he's fcuked. He is a tough tackler, but he has to win early at the line of scrimmage. Anyway this is all whataboutery and I'm not going to waste anymore energy on speculation. I think Butler should have played but I don't think it would have made any difference, because the defeat is on the defense as a whole, but in particular Belichick and Patricia.

Son Of A Vidic · 06-02-2018 03:26PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I wonder for Brady, will this loss hurt more than others? He played his arguably best game ever, against one of the best defenses in recent memory. Insane to think we lost a game where he threw for 505yd, 3td and no INT.

I think so, his final numbers were amazing. He's 40 years old, the NFL MVP but he knows getting to a Superbowl is damn hard and there's no guarantee he'll be back again.

TOss Sweep · 06-02-2018 03:44PM

Son Of A Vidic wrote: »

Butler wasn't that bad? Sorry, he played like a player all season who didn't deserve the money Gilmore got. And Gilmore? Well that kid really started showing up with it mattered. His batted away pass in the AFC title game was worth his contract price alone. But I do think Butler should have played, because it always possible he might pull off another play like he did before. And yes, it was obvious Rowe was targeted but his TD coverage couldn't have been better and I mentioned it because it was a scoring play. You can also be sure that if Butler was playing, he also would have been targeted. Why? Well apart from him not playing great, everybody knows that Butler has no catch up speed, get behind him and he's fcuked. He is a tough tackler, but he has to win early at the line of scrimmage. Anyway this is all whataboutery and I'm not going to waste anymore energy on speculation. I think Butler should have played but I don't think it would have made any difference, because the defeat is on the defense as a whole, but in particular Belichick and Patricia.

I love how Butler has been thrown under the bus this season.

He statistically was the best Corner we had this season. And the best open field tackler of all of our CBs

Butler -
55 Solo Tackles
3 Forced Fumbles
1 sack
2 Ints
12 PD

Gilmore
47 Solo Tackles
0 Forced Fumbles
0 Sacks
2 Ints
9 PD

Both gave up the same amount of TDs on the season. As for Gilmore showing up when needed in the AFC Championship how can you say Butler didn't? What was Butler supposed to run across the field on that last play and make that stop?

Huge misconception on how bad Butler was this season even PFF have both Gilmore and Butler ranked close to each other on their charts for how effective as Corners they were this year.

Our whole secondary was awful at times this year but Butler became the scapegoat for a lot of it. Pretty much every team threw on us like it was Christmas. We were last in Pass Defense in pretty much every category. But Oh yeah that is all Butlers fault. He wasn't 2015 Butler but he wasn't as bad as everyone makes out either.

The biggest problem with Butler is, us as Pats fans and the media putting Butler on a pedestal like he was an elite CB. He was nothing more than average to good and it shocked us all when he didn't perform like an elite CB. As for his money I could care less about how much he said get paid that is between him and the Patriots.

TOss Sweep · 06-02-2018 05:00PM

Matt and Josh gone. Flores will be the DC in my eyes but who the OC will be who knows. If we go in house I would say he will promote O'Shea who was a former QB and has worked with every aspect of the offense in his career. Long time Offensive assistant up in Minnesota before joining the Pats.

eagle eye · 06-02-2018 05:37PM

You see you call it blindly following Bill, although not in such nice terms as that, but I'm trying to have common sense and reason which IMO you are lacking. You rush to the twitter type judgement while I look at it from a different angle.

Are the coaches good? Yes.
Would it be out of character based on all we know for them to suddenly bench somebody for no reason? Yes

So after those two questions we move onto the ayer and see if there is any news about him. I heard nothing official bar the news that he was hospitalised on the Sunday night previous to the Superbowl and that he was still recovering from a nasty illness on Thursday.
I'm nit going to believe unsubstantiated rumours from twitter or a friend of a friend.

So the conclusion I have to come to is that he looked ready to go until just before kickoff. He clearly didn't know that this decision was made until right before kickoff.
I'd guess that he was allowed play on ST's to see if he was up to it but he clearly wasn't in the eyes of the coaches and that was that.

If that sounds farcical to you then fine.

For me you gobble up and believe too much of the **** that is put up on twitter and as a result you are forming bad opinions about things.

There is no way he sod be active if they had no intention of playing him imo. Belichick would be insane if he did something like that.

TOss Sweep · 06-02-2018 06:03PM

eagle eye wrote: »

You see you call it blindly following Bill, although not in such nice terms as that, but I'm trying to have common sense and reason which IMO you are lacking. You rush to the twitter type judgement while I look at it from a different angle.

Hilarious. No I gave my opinion on it more than once saying I really dont care what Butler did unless he murdered raped or spent a week in jail. I said it 4 times over two threads. But good man for trying to twist my opinion to suit your own agenda. Hilarious at best.

Are the coaches good? Yes.
Would it be out of character based on all we know for them to suddenly bench somebody for no reason? Yes

No one said they would or wouldn't so not sure why you bring this up. The fact they did is the issue.

So after those two questions we move onto the ayer and see if there is any news about him. I heard nothing official bar the news that he was hospitalised on the Sunday night previous to the Superbowl and that he was still recovering from a nasty illness on Thursday.
I'm nit going to believe unsubstantiated rumours from twitter or a friend of a friend.

Yes it was reported on Thursday that he would play on Sunday and would be healthy but again relevance Bill and Matt said it was not a disciplinary action or sickness related action so moot point.

So the conclusion I have to come to is that he looked ready to go until just before kickoff. He clearly didn't know that this decision was made until right before kickoff.
I'd guess that he was allowed play on ST's to see if he was up to it but he clearly wasn't in the eyes of the coaches and that was that.

Speculating like the rest of us though and your opinion and you are entitled to it

If that sounds farcical to you then fine.

For me you gobble up and believe too much of the **** that is put up on twitter and as a result you are forming bad opinions about things.

What are you banging on about again with the twitter sh1t. Look dude f**k off with your nonsense at this point. I am not justifying my opinion to you or anyone for that matter. I gave my opinion on the issue and that wont change. If you don't like that then that is fine but don't expect us all all to follow yours or accuse me of following twitter posts blindly. I formed my opinion before the weed accusation just to be clear. I said it the other night what I said above.

There is no way he sod be active if they had no intention of playing him imo. Belichick would be insane if he did something like that.

Speculating and your opinion

eagle eye · 06-02-2018 08:10PM

You are attacking my opinion on things since Sunday night because in your eyes it's being too loyal, or up Bill's ass as you call it.

I feel my opinion is perfectly reasonable whereas yours is guessing with no evidence to back it up. It's nearly conspiracy theory stuff in my eyes.

TOss Sweep · 06-02-2018 08:52PM

eagle eye wrote: »

You are attacking my opinion on things since Sunday night because in your eyes it's being too loyal, or up Bill's ass as you call it.

I feel my opinion is perfectly reasonable whereas yours is guessing with no evidence to back it up. It's nearly conspiracy theory stuff in my eyes.

Says the guy who subtly attacked my coaching abilities and then played it of oh I was trying to prove a point about opinion without fact. hahaha hilarious

As for the bit in bold What the f**k are you banging on about. You are starting to sound insane to be fair.

Again 6th time now, My opinion is unless he "Killed, Raped or spent the week in jail" he should have played.

Not sure where in that I need evidence to back up how I feel or how its a conspiracy but ok. You are right. I bow down to your greatness

Attacks posters during the bowl, attacks anyone who disagrees with his opinion and then says my opinion is based on twitter posts and now says his opinion is the only reasonable option even though it is also without any factual evidence. :pac:

Oh man cracked me up this week. Thanks for the laugh needed that after Sunday night.

This thread should be renamed to "New Patriots Thread brought to you by Eagle Eye, The only opinion that matters"

AbusesToilets · 06-02-2018 09:35PM

Butler has a tweet out, saying he didn't violate any policies or get in trouble. The plot thickens...

StringerBell · 06-02-2018 09:46PM

Not really, his tweet would back up the coach line that he was benched for footballing reasons and not for disciplinary. It would also prove that pointless tweet from nobody that he was busted for curfew and weed to be a load of rubbish. Which is little surprise.

TOss Sweep · 06-02-2018 09:48PM

His full statement

j8wk2feszrnpao · 06-02-2018 09:59PM

It's just kinda........ bizzare. Bill and Butler appear to be on the same page. But I just don't get how the coaching staff could see what was happening before their eyes, and for footballing reasons, not give Butler an opportunity to try improve things.
Butler was not having a good year, but he still played all year. He was the No2 corner. To see your No3 CB getting killed, Bademosi and Richards struggled badly...... surely let Butler play? I really really doubt he could have been much worse.

AbusesToilets · 06-02-2018 10:05PM

All the more so given the circumstances that Butler came to fame, replacing Arrington in the SB, who was getting torched.

TOss Sweep · 07-02-2018 01:02AM

Josh decides to stay. Bill's replacement...................

me89 · 07-02-2018 01:50AM

Delighted he's staying.

Seeing the colts getting screwed over is just an added bonus ðŸ˜Š

Son Of A Vidic · 07-02-2018 02:40AM

TOss Sweep wrote: »

I love how Butler has been thrown under the bus this season.

He statistically was the best Corner we had this season. And the best open field tackler of all of our CBs

Butler -
55 Solo Tackles
3 Forced Fumbles
1 sack
2 Ints
12 PD

Gilmore
47 Solo Tackles
0 Forced Fumbles
0 Sacks
2 Ints
9 PD

Both gave up the same amount of TDs on the season. As for Gilmore showing up when needed in the AFC Championship how can you say Butler didn't? What was Butler supposed to run across the field on that last play and make that stop?

Huge misconception on how bad Butler was this season even PFF have both Gilmore and Butler ranked close to each other on their charts for how effective as Corners they were this year.

Our whole secondary was awful at times this year but Butler became the scapegoat for a lot of it. Pretty much every team threw on us like it was Christmas. We were last in Pass Defense in pretty much every category. But Oh yeah that is all Butlers fault. He wasn't 2015 Butler but he wasn't as bad as everyone makes out either.

The biggest problem with Butler is, us as Pats fans and the media putting Butler on a pedestal like he was an elite CB. He was nothing more than average to good and it shocked us all when he didn't perform like an elite CB. As for his money I could care less about how much he said get paid that is between him and the Patriots.

In my eye test all season, Butler ended the season behind Gilmore. I also never considered Butler an elite corner, but with a traditionally shyte secondary, he was certainly one of our best. At best Butler was a No. 2 Corner and no more than that. Yes he's a great tackler, but when an opponent gets behind him he's fcuked. And me personally? Well I couldn't see him making that spectacular play in the AFC title game that Gilmore pulled off.

My main issue with Butler is, his play has dropped off compared to previous seasons and this has coincided with the arrival of Gilmore. So it's logical to conclude that he's had a wee sulk, I may be wrong of course but that's how I'm reading it. Because of this, I've taken the view that Butler should have put his head down and played his ass off, have his best season and earn his own contract. But he didn't do that and that will hit him in the pocket whether he stays or leaves during FA.

Not sure how this thread seems to have become fixated on Butler though and I'll repeat what I said in The Superbowl thread. Him not playing was not a case of us losing a JJ Watt or a Josh Norman type of player. Elite players, difference makers, guys you do not want to lose from a game. Butler is nowhere near that and I don't think him playing would have made a damn difference, because the defense lost us the Superbowl and not one player.

Son Of A Vidic · 07-02-2018 02:41AM

me89 wrote: »

Delighted he's staying.

Seeing the colts getting screwed over is just an added bonus ��

Josh just trolled the Colts, their new HC walked away, they must be totally deflated after that.:pac::D

TOss Sweep · 07-02-2018 02:47AM

Son Of A Vidic wrote: »

In my eye test all season,

You and every other Pats fan that wrote him off. PFF and the stats disagree with your assessment. By all rights him and Gilmore played equally the same as each other.

My main issue with Butler is, his play has dropped off compared to previous seasons and this has coincided with the arrival of Gilmore. So it's logical to conclude that he's had a wee sulk, I may be wrong of course but that's how I'm reading it. Because of this, I've taken the view that Butler should have put his head down and played his ass off, have his best season and earn his own contract. But he didn't do that and that will hit him in the pocket whether he stays or leaves during FA.

But yet there was never any indication or report that was proven to show Butler was disgruntled or gave up in games. Show me some solid proof that Butler remained disgruntled and gave up in games and I will happily agree with you. This again is another misconception and made up piece for Pats fans to give up on him and write him off. He was no different to any other player in a contract year looking to get paid. To say he held it against the Pats all season long and he played like sh1t on purpose is just nonsense.

Not sure how this thread seems to have become fixated on Butler.

Oh sorry my apologies I didn't realize there was a limit on discussion on certain players

j8wk2feszrnpao · 07-02-2018 08:05AM

TO, from the eye test, would you not say that Butler had a poor year? Seemed that Gilmore did get better as the season went on (given the pay check, he should!).
I'm certainly not writing him off. We've gotten great value out a good player for a number of seasons on the cheap. This year was not good, but he can easily bounce back. Maybe the contract issue played on his mind, we seemed to want to trade him before the start of the season. Either way, looks like he might not get the bumper contract he previously could have; but someone will take a shot on him and I wish him well.

bruschi · 07-02-2018 09:11AM

in a comparison with Gilmore, Butler was much better earlier on in the season, and Gimore finished stronger. If you were to draw a line graph of their respective seasons, Butler would have been flat all the way along, just about average. Gilmore would have an upward trend, starting from a low base and finishing just above average. There was plenty on here giving out about Gilmore and how for the money spent, he wasnt justifying it. He finished the year well, definitely. But Butler has been thrown under the bus horrendously. The whole contract stuff in the off season, the will he wont he trade, paying him the bare minimum and not entering any negotiation talks. He has been treated horrendously by the Patriots. He always gave his all. He was an undrafted rookie from a second tier school, he was never going to be Revis. But he deserved better than what he has got. And I dont need to know full facts from Sundays decision to come to that conclusion either. Regardless of Sunday, they way Butler was treated up to then was really poor. Doesnt excuse his bad play, and he admitted as much himself. But he was still our second best corner going into the game.

TOss Sweep · 07-02-2018 12:27PM

I think both of them had similar seasons as our whole secondary were shocking at best. They each made important plays at times but i would say there was a margunal.difference between the two if any

AbusesToilets · 07-02-2018 01:19PM

I just don't see how they could make an honest football decision not to try him in the game after halftime. Nothing we were doing was effective at that point, yet there he stood, on the sideline, looking on. If Bill wasn't confident in his abilities, why suit him up? We could have had Britt in his stead, which might have helped when Cookie went out.

AbusesToilets · 07-02-2018 01:45PM

Good article on PatsPulpit highlighting areas where Butler could have made an impact.

https://www.patspulpit.com/2018/2/7/16974084/super-bowl-52-new-england-patriots-philadelphia-eagles-film-review-malcolm-butler-gilmore-bademosi

Son Of A Vidic · 07-02-2018 02:12PM

TOss Sweep wrote: »

Oh sorry my apologies I didn't realize there was a limit on discussion on certain players

If you don't understand what I meant, then engaging with you is a complete waste of time. I'm not fixating on Butler any more because as I've already said, one man didn't cost us the Superbowl, the defense did.

New England Patriots Thread Mod Warning Post #253

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