Christian denominations: which are the most liberal and which are most hardline?

BuilderPlumber · 29-01-2018 11:34PM #1

I have of late noticed the amount of different types of churches in Ireland many of which I didn't know existed! Which churches are the ones that are more liberal and which are the conservative hardline type ones to avoid? Does Ireland have the fanatic Christian fundamentalist churches like those in America?

koumi · 30-01-2018 01:46AM

I'm not sure there is one, and at the same time I'd say there are many. I really don't think denomination determines how fanatical or fundamentalist some Christians can be, that really comes down to the individual. One parish might have a number of fundamentalists in it's pews while the priest or minister or pastor might be quite the opposite. Maybe someone else might have a couple of good suggestions, but it really does depend on what you are looking for yourself.

I remember many years ago attending Franciscan services because they used have special healing masses once a week, so I'm more inclined to be where works of faith are carried out. Healing, music, anointing, those kind of things. I tend to live stream services or discussion via the web and my favourite would be Bethel at Redding. I love Bill Johnson and never fail to learn something new. (some stuff on youtube, BethelTV available on subscription) There is a cornerstone church in Bray, which while I've never been would probably be the Irish equivalent and maybe I'll get to check it out myself in the future.

For the moment though, the bread is still available at my local catholic church, should I ever decide to partake of it.

Cabaal · 30-01-2018 08:34AM

koumi wrote: »

I really don't think denomination determines how fanatical or fundamentalist some Christians can be, that really comes down to the individual.

That is indeed true, but to a point.
If you look at christian groups like allow women Vicar or Priests or for them to get married they can certainly be seen as more liberal then for example the catholic church.

Peregrinus · 30-01-2018 08:43AM

Cabaal wrote: »

That is indeed true, but to a point.
If you look at christian groups like allow women Vicar or Priests or for them to get married they can certainly be seen as more liberal then for example the catholic church.

Yes. On the other hand, if you look at other issues, the Catholic church might take a more liberal stance than some of the denominations that ordain women. For example the "fanatic Christian fundamentalist churches in America" that the OP references are mostly open to having women in ministry.

So I think the question raised by the OP doesn't lend itself to one-word answers. The question "which denomination is more liberal?" invites the counter-question "liberal with respect to what?"

Cabaal · 30-01-2018 10:33AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

So I think the question raised by the OP doesn't lend itself to one-word answers. The question "which denomination is more liberal?" invites the counter-question "liberal with respect to what?"

Liberal in general I guess,
You look at a few issues such as attitudes to sex, women, divorce, marriage, gay people, abortion and contraception.

Peregrinus · 30-01-2018 11:08AM

Cabaal wrote: »

Peregrinus wrote: »

So I think the question raised by the OP doesn't lend itself to one-word answers. The question "which denomination is more liberal?" invites the counter-question "liberal with respect to what?"

Liberal in general I guess,
You look at a few issues such as attitudes to sex, women, divorce, marriage, gay people, abortion and contraception.

No offence, but that’s not issues “in general”. That’s a fairly narrow range of issues connected to sex and gender.

And, even within those issues, you’ll still find no consistent pattern. Evangelical Anglicans, for example, may have no issue with women presiding at the Eucharist, which is a big no-no for Catholics, and yet take a very strong line against women in positions of leadership, and for wives being subject to their husbands.

BuilderPlumber · 30-01-2018 12:12PM

Agree with all the above posts. I get the feeling too that religious fanaticism depends on the person. In general, I would view the mainstream churches as moderate to liberal. These would be the (mainstream) Catholic church, Methodist church, Church of Ireland/Anglican, and Presbyterian church.

It is when we move outside of these, things get less clear. Take Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons for example. Some are moderate while others are fanatic. Then, there is the Irish Baptist church which is a church no one seems to know anything about. Is this moderate or conservative? There are all these Pentecostal type ones as well. We know the American versions of these can be very rigid but what of the Irish ones? And of course, there is this traditional pre-Vatican 2 Catholic revival who do not recognise the modern Catholicism and prefer the old Latin mass and so on. Such people tend to be very intolerant of other faiths.

Mancomb Seepgood · 30-01-2018 01:57PM

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Agree with all the above posts. I get the feeling too that religious fanaticism depends on the person. In general, I would view the mainstream churches as moderate to liberal. These would be the (mainstream) Catholic church, Methodist church, Church of Ireland/Anglican, and Presbyterian church.

It is when we move outside of these, things get less clear. Take Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons for example. Some are moderate while others are fanatic. Then, there is the Irish Baptist church which is a church no one seems to know anything about. Is this moderate or conservative? There are all these Pentecostal type ones as well. We know the American versions of these can be very rigid but what of the Irish ones? And of course, there is this traditional pre-Vatican 2 Catholic revival who do not recognise the modern Catholicism and prefer the old Latin mass and so on. Such people tend to be very intolerant of other faiths.

It's not a question that lends itself to easy answers.You mentioned the Baptists - there is no Baptist Church in Ireland as such,but there is an Association of Baptist Churches which as far as I know is a group of fairly independent churches which cooperate on various issues.They tend to be fairly mainstream evangelical but there are a few independent unassociated Baptist churches which are quite fundamentalist and wouldn't deny being so (inerrancy of the Bible,King James only,etc).There are Baptist churches outside of Ireland who are very liberal on matters of LGBT rights and women's issues (Bloomsbury in London,for example) and there may well be some such churches here too.And all that is just the Baptists!

Again,it would depend on what you mean by fundamentalist and "rigid". Most people leap to the hot button issues of the moment (abortion,LGBT rights,women's rights) but there is a lot more to it than that.

Cabaal · 30-01-2018 02:59PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

No offence, but that’s not issues “in general”. That’s a fairly narrow range of issues connected to sex and gender.
.

To be fair, I was merely giving examples

Peregrinus · 31-01-2018 02:03AM

Cabaal wrote: »

To be fair, I was merely giving examples

And, to be even more fair, they are the examples which often spring to mind when we are thinking about liberal versus fundamentalist in relation to churches.

But that's because we're preoccupied with sex, dirty-minded blackguards that we are. You could equally look at matters of church government (hierarchical or congregational? Top-down or bottom-up?) or attitudes to biblical interpretation, or social teaching, or views about war, or relations between church and state, or a host of other issues.

smacl · 31-01-2018 08:58AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

And, to be even more fair, they are the examples which often spring to mind when we are thinking about liberal versus fundamentalist in relation to churches.

But that's because we're preoccupied with sex, dirty-minded blackguards that we are. You could equally look at matters of church government (hierarchical or congregational? Top-down or bottom-up?) or attitudes to biblical interpretation, or social teaching, or views about war, or relations between church and state, or a host of other issues.

To be fair issues surrounding sexuality, reproduction and gender identity are probably the biggest area of divergence between traditional church teachings and public behaviour and associated evolving morality. While obviously tongue-in-cheek, even your quip about dirty-minded blackguards illustrates this. The contraception and abortion threads here highlight this further and show something of a chasm between a fundamental position and more moderate one. While advocating 'go forth and multiply' was no doubt entirely pragmatic in biblical times with massive child mortality rates, short life expectancy and a world population a tiny fraction of what we have today, it has ceased to be good advice in today's world. Increasingly, sexuality and bearing children are becoming decoupled, and couples choose when and if to have children. While it doesn't always pan out as planned, a large part of relying on chance has been removed, contrary to the wishes and instruction of the church. I think more liberal and forward thinking members of the clergy recognise this and strive to become more relevant in a modern context, where more traditional clergy risk become isolated to a rapidly shrinking and ageing audience.

Just my opinion, but you also have a plethora of newer churches popping up to support those who don't feel well served by traditional churches. Some of these will be more fundamentalist, as fundamentalism is easy to preach to the disenfranchised. Others will be considerably more liberal to cater to those who still basically consider themselves Christian but are looking for a better fit for their own behaviour.

Peregrinus · 31-01-2018 09:06AM

smacl wrote: »

To be fair issues surrounding sexuality, reproduction and gender identity are probably the biggest area of divergence between traditional church teachings and public behaviour and associated evolving morality . . .

No, they're not. They're just the ones that receive the most attention. Church pronouncements about sex-related issues get a huge amount of media coverage and generate an enormous amount of public discussion; church pronouncements about war, about the environment, about economic justice, about migration, etc. may be just as much at odds with, or critical of, the practices and values of secular, materialist, modern or post-modern culture, but they attract far less notice.

And that is because of the world's preoccupations (at least, as reflected in the media, and in the public square), not the churches'.

smacl · 31-01-2018 10:22AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, they're not. They're just the ones that receive the most attention. Church pronouncements about sex-related issues get a huge amount of media coverage and generate an enormous amount of public discussion; church pronouncements about war, about the environment, about economic justice, about migration, etc. may be just as much at odds with, or critical of, the practices and values of secular, materialist, modern or post-modern culture, but they attract far less notice.

And that is because of the world's preoccupations (at least, as reflected in the media, and in the public square), not the churches'.

I don't agree. Church pronouncements in relation to war, economic justice, migration and the rest tend to fall largely in line with popular sentiment, even though that may often be at odds with the establishment. Church pronouncements in relation to sex are often at odds with public opinion where cynically I'd say the establishment sides with the voting public on what they see as low cost diversionary crowd pleasers.

homer911 · 31-01-2018 02:00PM

Arguably the most liberal of churches is the Unitarian church, which seems to follow a doctrine of believing in whatever you want to believe in (ducks head waiting for the ensuing onslaught)

Christian denominations: which are the most liberal and which are most hardline?

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