Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

pilly · 28-01-2018 10:47AM

end of the road wrote:

actually there is no evidence they favour unlimited abortion as that wasn't the question asked. it could be abortion in limited circumstances they are in favour of but the question was ambiguous. as a republican i will never except the unquestioned and on demand killing of the unborn in my country.

Another lie

pilly · 28-01-2018 11:04AM

end of the road wrote:

there is little support for drug enforcement anyway abortion pills asside. most ordinary people caught with a bit of whatever are usually cautioned or given a very light sentence if bought to court, it's only the big dealers who get actual sentences. the gardai need to do little in relation to the abortion pills as customs are getting the vast majority that are being imported anyway. the people on the train were let have their little stunt because customs are having huge success. it was a way of the gardai trying to get some of the people back on side.

Proof that customs are getting the vast majority of pills please.

pilly · 28-01-2018 11:05AM

end of the road wrote:

i expect the laws of the land to be enforced without fear or favour, regardless of whether i agree with the law or not. it's not up to me to campaign for the forces of the state to do their job, they should do it. but as i said, customs are having great success in stopping abortion pills from getting into the country. they won't get them all but i believe they are getting a massive percentage of them.

Proof please

ABC101 · 28-01-2018 11:08AM

smacl wrote: »

Expectant mothers anticipating a baby and their doctors / midwives will talk about a baby as that is what they're planning and hoping for. A pregnant woman who does not want to have a baby, not so much. I would assert that for a woman who chooses to have an abortion, there isn't nor has there been any baby. That you or anyone else might believe differently is no more or less than your belief, it is not a matter of fact. Do you in all honesty consider the woman who has an abortion to be a murderer? Is have an abortion, by your way of thinking, the exact same crime as murdering a child?

It all depends on what you value Smacl. Humans don’t appear in baby (9 months) form instantly, a baby human has to develop in various stages from a fertilized egg. This you already know.

But a baby (delete as appropriate) human fetus is human, contains human DNA, and if allowed to develop naturally will in a short few months come into the world as a beautiful baby.

You have made the point a number of times in various posts about opinion and fact.

Abortion is the physical implementation of a opinion that a beautiful baby should never be born. It is the enactment of a appalling injustice.

For many babies abortion is a horrible death, physical paralysis of the baby and stopping the heart by the insertion of needles.

To do this on a human being which is not only beautiful but vulnerable and has committed no wrong is a appalling injustice.

And yet some people are able to justify this as they hold the opinion that, the fetus is not human, or it’s not a baby, or it’s not a person.

J C · 28-01-2018 11:52AM

The first thing that societies do, when they want to treat people unjustly is to remove / refuse to recognise their personhood.
There is a long and ignoble litany of such behaviour, ranging from the slaves in the USA, to the 'non-persons' in Stalinist Russia and elsewhere.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonperson

A 'non-person' is defined as "a citizen or a member of a group who lacks, loses, or is forcibly denied social or legal status, especially basic human rights, or who effectively ceases to have a record of their existence within a society (damnatio memoriae), from a point of view of traceability, documentation, or existence. The term also refers to people whose death is unverifiable and about which inquiries result in a "blank wall" of "nobody knows that"."

The above definition perfectly describes the plight of unborn children in countries where unlimited abortion exists.

Here is a 'non-person' who was aborted ... but survived to become a person ... and what an amazing person she has turned out to be. I give you, Melissa Oden, one of the leading pro-life advocates in America.

She subsequently discovered and met her birth mother (who was a 19 year old student pressurised into the abortion). Her mother thought she was dead for over 30 years!!
What an amazing encounter that must have been.

J C · 28-01-2018 12:21PM

pilly wrote: »

Proof that customs are getting the vast majority of pills please.

Only customs know that.
It is quite true that whatever happens the 8th, abortion of Irish unborn children will continue.

For all those unborn babies about to be aborted and their mothers and fathers out there, here is a beautiful song to remind them that there is another way ... they can choose life.

smacl · 28-01-2018 12:27PM

ABC101 wrote: »

Abortion is the physical implementation of a opinion that a beautiful baby should never be born. It is the enactment of a appalling injustice.

That's your opinion. Mine would be that forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy through to full term and go through with a birth against her will just because you believe the world needs another 'beautiful baby' is barbaric. In case you weren't aware, our world is not exactly short of unwanted and unloved babies. Perhaps you'd do better to devote your energies to the many actual children in the world today living in horrendous conditions. Did you know for example that 3.1 million children under the age of 5 die from hunger every year? It seems to me that the pro-life brigade are more concerned about telling other people how they should run their lives than actually caring about babies.

Dionysis · 28-01-2018 12:28PM

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

Life begins at conception and anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot.. And I'm pro choice.

Agreed.
However the question here is, when do you begin to have rights, and when are they considered to be infringed. To explain.
If after conception a foetus has rights, then at what stage are you considering them to infringe on the mothers rights.
If a child is born with a deficiency due to something that happened when the mother was still carrying it, (for arguments sake, drinking/smoking during pregnancy caused a defect), has the mother infringed the unborn babies rights and caused the deficiency, and so is liable? If not, then a babies rights and infringing on them only occurs after it’s born.

J C · 28-01-2018 12:42PM

Dionysis wrote: »

Agreed.
However the question here is, when do you begin to have rights, and when are they considered to be infringed. To explain.
If after conception a foetus has rights, then at what stage are you considering them to infringe on the mothers rights.
If a child is born with a deficiency due to something that happened when the mother was still carrying it, (for arguments sake, drinking/smoking during pregnancy caused a defect), has the mother infringed the unborn babies rights and caused the deficiency, and so is liable? If not, then a babies rights and infringing on them only occurs after it’s born.

There is a well established principle in law that third parties who cause damage to a baby in utero may bear full criminal and civil responsibility for such damage.
Society hasn't extended such liability to the mother.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6551914

J C · 28-01-2018 01:15PM

pilly wrote: »

Please provide proof that most people who claim to be christan aren't?

Really sick of you making stuff up.

Lies.

We're at over 1200 posts ... and both sides have presented 'logical' arguments for their positions.
Here is an interesting Chrisitian song from the possible perspective of the unborn child herself ...

Timberrrrrrrr · 28-01-2018 01:21PM

J C wrote: »

We're at over 1200 posts ... and both sides have presented 'logical' arguments for their positions.
Here is an interesting Chrisitian song from the possible perspective of the unborn child herself ...

Stop spamming the thread with videos of songs because it doesn't validate your pro life stance one bit.

I wonder would you be ok if I started posting death metal videos or videos of satanic rituals?

J C · 28-01-2018 01:30PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Stop spamming the thread with videos of songs because it doesn't validate your pro life stance one bit.

I wonder would you be ok if I started posting death metal videos or videos of satanic rituals?

You would be on the wrong forum to post such satanic anti-christ stuff.

This is a Christian forum and the thread title asks a question about abortion, from a Christian perspective.

These are very powerful videos, that address the horror that abortion is, from a Christian perspective.

Cabaal · 28-01-2018 01:31PM

J C wrote: »

We're at over 1200 posts ... and both sides have presented 'logical' arguments for their positions.
Here is an interesting Chrisitian song from the possible perspective of the unborn child herself ...

Are you going to post meaningful stuff or are you just going to spam the thread with Youtube videos?

If you're going to spam the thread then we can all do that, here's an interesting trailer which is more relevant to this topic about a documentary where pro life extremists fire bomb clinics and then murder a doctor while he was at church.
Pro life groups then legally fund the murderers defense fund and continue to issue death threats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xf3rETOO62s

Abortion = wrong, but murdering doctors, burning horses alive etc = good

Go figure

Nick Park · 28-01-2018 01:36PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Stop spamming the thread with videos of songs because it doesn't validate your pro life stance one bit.

I wonder would you be ok if I started posting death metal videos or videos of satanic rituals?

The thread is in the Christianity Forum, asking if Christians can vote for unlimited abortion.

Christian songs, Scriptures etc. are of no use whatsoever in debating abortion in general in wider society. But, as part of a wider Christian tradition, they are very relevant to the subject of this thread.

Of course if a thread was posted in another forum asking how Satanists should vote, then your videos would be perfectly apt. :rolleyes:

Nobody's saying you can't post in the Christianity forum, but do you see how intolerant you come across when you start trying to dictate what Christians can post in a thread directed at Christians in the Christianity Forum?

Nick Park · 28-01-2018 01:43PM

pilly wrote: »

Please provide proof that most people who claim to be christan aren't?

Really sick of you making stuff up.

Lies.

Whether those who tick 'Christian' on a census are genuine Christians or not is a matter of opinion. It is hardly a verifiable fact - no more than your or my differing subjective opinions about when personhood begins can be verified or falsified objectively.

Have you ever thought that you could accept the reality that some people have different opinions, rather than labelling them as liars because their opinions are different to yours?

ABC101 · 28-01-2018 01:46PM

smacl wrote: »

That's your opinion. Mine would be that forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy through to full term and go through with a birth against her will just because you believe the world needs another 'beautiful baby' is barbaric. In case you weren't aware, our world is not exactly short of unwanted and unloved babies. Perhaps you'd do better to devote your energies to the many actual children in the world today living in horrendous conditions. Did you know for example that 3.1 million children under the age of 5 die from hunger every year? It seems to me that the pro-life brigade are more concerned about telling other people how they should run their lives than actually caring about babies.

Smacl, with respect, abortion is a physical action not an opinion.

In relation to the existing children you mention living in poverty it is encumbent on all people not just pro lifers to give charity. Or do you believe the pro choice brigade have no responsibility to charity? ( I don’t believe you do, but you seem to be implying in your posts that that is the case).

The RCC Church has a long history in charity, and even when some injustices did occur in mother and baby homes / orphanages / institutions etc not all were badly run.

Why were these women there in the first place?

Because society put them there!!! What about the men who made these women pregnant? Why did they shirk their responsibility? Even today pregnant girls are been shunned / thrown out of their family home.

Even today the taxpayer picks up the tab for single mothers, yet the fathers have not much financial responsibility.

SusieBlue · 28-01-2018 01:46PM

Posting emotional blackmail videos is something we could all do, I’m sure I could find hundreds that support my pro choice position.

A song about the possible perspective of the unborn fetus? This is almost as bad as your cartoon of the embryo. Spare me.

Really heartbreaking story on The Simon Community’s Facebook at the moment.
It’s the story of a man, now in his 30’s.
Born with fetal alcohol syndrome to a mother who neither wanted him nor could cope. He was surrendered to the care system aged 4 and had been in 13 different care homes around the country by the age of 12.
At age 12 he started drinking, and at age 15 he was addicted to heroin. He didn’t attend school and no one cared.
At 18, he was released from state care and left to fend for himself. It’s a surprise to no one that he ended up homeless.
He was in trouble with the law for stealing and being drunk and disorderly.
It was only in the last year that he managed to get himself clean.
Thanks to the hard work of the Simon Community, he’s now got his own place. He’s studying for his junior cert at the moment and is doing very well for himself.
He was the one who suffered for the lack of support given to his mother.
It all fell back on him.

So forgive me for giving more weight to the story of a real man who actually grew up in the care system, and how it impacted him. The same system we rely on today to bring up the babies of women who had no choice.
His perspective is far more valuable than the song about the possible feelings of an embryo in the womb.

Cabaal · 28-01-2018 01:48PM

Nick Park wrote: »

Whether those who tick 'Christian' on a census are genuine Christians or not is a matter of opinion. It is hardly a verifiable fact - no more than your or my differing subjective opinions about when personhood begins can be verified or falsified objectively.

Have you ever thought that you could accept the reality that some people have different opinions, rather than labelling them as liars because their opinions are different to yours?

I can see your point Nick, however I find it most unusual that many Catholic and Christian's in this thread and forum overall feel they can dictate who is or who is not a christian or catholic even when the person says they are a christian or catholic.

It's pretty disrespectful for a christian to claim another person is not a christian when they say they are and know they are do you not think?

Nick Park · 28-01-2018 02:14PM

Cabaal wrote: »

I can see your point Nick, however I find it most unusual that many Catholic and Christian's in this thread and forum overall feel they can dictate who is or who is not a christian or catholic even when the person says they are a christian or catholic.

It's pretty disrespectful for a christian to claim another person is not a christian when they say they are and know they are do you not think?

As I said in my original contribution to this thread, the word 'Christian' gets used in different ways. Richard Dawkins refers to himself as a Christian in a cultural sense.

Is it disrespectful to say that Dawkins is not a 'Christian' in the sense of seeking to live his life according to the example and teachings of Christ?

pitifulgod · 28-01-2018 02:19PM

ABC101 wrote: »

Smacl, with respect, abortion is a physical action not an opinion.

In relation to the existing children you mention living in poverty it is encumbent on all people not just pro lifers to give charity. Or do you believe the pro choice brigade have no responsibility to charity? ( I don’t believe you do, but you seem to be implying in your posts that that is the case).

The RCC Church has a long history in charity, and even when some injustices did occur in mother and baby homes / orphanages / institutions etc not all were badly run.

Why were these women there in the first place?

Because society put them there!!! What about the men who made these women pregnant? Why did they shirk their responsibility? Even today pregnant girls are been shunned / thrown out of their family home.

Even today the taxpayer picks up the tab for single mothers, yet the fathers have not much financial responsibility.

Just to clarify, do you think overall mother and baby homes and laundries were a force for good overall? Seems distinctly like you're intentionally diminishing how large scale the neglect was.

The church bore considerable responsibility for how single mothers were viewed in the first place. In much the same way women who have abortions are referred to as murderers by some

Timberrrrrrrr · 28-01-2018 02:27PM

Nick Park wrote: »

The thread is in the Christianity Forum, asking if Christians can vote for unlimited abortion.

Christian songs, Scriptures etc. are of no use whatsoever in debating abortion in general in wider society. But, as part of a wider Christian tradition, they are very relevant to the subject of this thread.

Of course if a thread was posted in another forum asking how Satanists should vote, then your videos would be perfectly apt. :rolleyes:

Nobody's saying you can't post in the Christianity forum, but do you see how intolerant you come across when you start trying to dictate what Christians can post in a thread directed at Christians in the Christianity Forum?

I'm not intolerant at all.im a live and let live kinda guy, couldn't care less what "god" someone prays to I'm simply pointing out that JC is yet again posting irrelevant tou tube videos as he has done in many many threads before.

J C · 28-01-2018 02:28PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Posting emotional blackmail videos is something we could all do, I’m sure I could find hundreds that support my pro choice position.

A song about the possible perspective of the unborn fetus? This is almost as bad as your cartoon of the embryo. Spare me.

Really heartbreaking story on The Simon Community’s Facebook at the moment.
It’s the story of a man, now in his 30’s.
Born with fetal alcohol syndrome to a mother who neither wanted him nor could cope. He was surrendered to the care system aged 4 and had been in 13 different care homes around the country by the age of 12.
At age 12 he started drinking, and at age 15 he was addicted to heroin. He didn’t attend school and no one cared.
At 18, he was released from state care and left to fend for himself. It’s a surprise to no one that he ended up homeless.
He was in trouble with the law for stealing and being drunk and disorderly.
It was only in the last year that he managed to get himself clean.
Thanks to the hard work of the Simon Community, he’s now got his own place. He’s studying for his junior cert at the moment and is doing very well for himself.
He was the one who suffered for the lack of support given to his mother.
It all fell back on him.

So forgive me for giving more weight to the story of a real man who actually grew up in the care system, and how it impacted him. The same system we rely on today to bring up the babies of women who had no choice.
His perspective is far more valuable than the song about the possible feelings of an embryo in the womb.

Both are important.

... and the Simon Community was founded by a Christian, Anton Wallich-Clifford and its work was modelled on Simon of Cyrene, who helped Jesus to carry His cross to Calvary.
... so Christians aren't solely focussed on abortion ... they put their money and time where their mouths are, across the whole spectrum of care for their fellow man.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Community

Quote:-
"The Simon Community is a charity which helps homeless people, taking its name from Simon of Cyrene. It was founded in 1963 by Anton Wallich-Clifford who had encountered many homeless people while working for the Probation Service at Bow Street Magistrates Court. Wallich-Clifford was influenced by the work of Dorothy Day and her Catholic Worker Movement in the USA and his original vision was to establish a farm and community in Sussex but local protests prevented this and the organisation developed as a chain of houses and night shelters run by local volunteers."

J C · 28-01-2018 02:40PM

pitifulgod wrote: »

Just to clarify, do you think overall mother and baby homes and laundries were a force for good overall? Seems distinctly like you're intentionally diminishing how large scale the neglect was.

The church bore considerable responsibility for how single mothers were viewed in the first place. In much the same way women who have abortions are referred to as murderers by some

There is an amazing (and convenient) double think going on with all of this raking up of 1950's Ireland ... the RCC is the only institution being villified for all of the sins of the 1950's ... no mention of society in general, the immediate families (who were all to happy, in most cases, to lock these women up) or the state and its institutions, who were all too happy to look the other way or actively support these homes.

I'm no great lover of the RCC ... but, in justice, I have to say that current Roman Catholic clergy are being scapegoated, for the sins of some of their antecedents ... while the rest of society is giving itself a 'free-pass' for all that happened in its name.

... and deciding to vote for unlimited abortion, 'because there were Magdelene Laundries in 1950s Ireland' ... is neither logical nor reasonable.

Dionysis · 28-01-2018 02:41PM

J C wrote: »

There is a well established principle in law that third parties who cause damage to a baby in utero may bear full criminal and civil responsibility for such damage.
Society hasn't extended such liability to the mother.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6551914

Why has it not? Is there any particular reason?
Also based on the above, please correct me, in Irish Law the unborn fetus is considered a person and has rights?
Is there any particular age, in months obviously, that this law for criminal damage can be in Acted?
Any finally, you say above criminal damage is that, damage to a property/ possession or damage to a person, would it be worded differently if the law wS against damage to a person?
Not a solicitor so have to ask?

pitifulgod · 28-01-2018 02:47PM

J C wrote: »

There is an amazing (and convenient) double think going on with all of this raking up of 1950's Ireland ... the RCC is the only institution being villified for all of the sins of the 1950's ... no mention of society in general, the immediate families (who were all to happy, in most cases, to lock these women up) or the state and its institutions, who were all too happy to look the other way or actively support these homes.

I'm no great lover of the RCC ... but, in justice, I have to say that current Roman Catholic clergy are being scapegoated, for the sins of some of their antecedents ... while the rest of society is giving itself a 'free-pass' for all that happened in its name.

Firstly, yep I view society as complicit. However the rationale that the people followed was that of the fallen woman. They didn't just invent that themselves, they were taught it from birth. A single woman with a child was something to be ashamed of and the church was a considerable proponent and nurturer of that view. So yep society was at fault but you can't ignore where those views came from.

Now we're in a phase where there are people who are happy to shame women for abortions and label them as murderers, we've had posters on this thread that simply voting to allow abortion is to doom you to hell. The parallels are very real, just the RCC have considerably diminished influence.

Timberrrrrrrr · 28-01-2018 02:47PM

J C wrote: »

There is an amazing (and convenient) double think going on with all of this raking up of 1950's Ireland ... the RCC is the only institution being villified for all of the sins of the 1950's ... no mention of society in general, the immediate families (who were all to happy, in most cases, to lock these women up) or the state and its institutions, who were all too happy to look the other way or actively support these homes.

I'm no great lover of the RCC ... but, in justice, I have to say that current Roman Catholic clergy are being scapegoated, for the sins of some of their antecedents ... while the rest of society is giving itself a 'free-pass' for all that happened in its name.

... and deciding to vote for unlimited abortion, 'because there were Magdelene Laundries in 1950s Ireland' ... is neither logical nor reasonable.

But living your life according to the teachings of a 2000 year old book that was written by shepherds is logical and reasonable :rolleyes:

smacl · 28-01-2018 02:48PM

ABC101 wrote: »

Smacl, with respect, abortion is a physical action not an opinion.

Obviously. It is an action based on the choice a pregnant woman makes that she does not want to have a child. Not an easy choice, nor one that you or I can make on her behalf against her will.

In relation to the existing children you mention living in poverty it is encumbent on all people not just pro lifers to give charity. Or do you believe the pro choice brigade have no responsibility to charity? ( I don’t believe you do, but you seem to be implying in your posts that that is the case).

Pro-choice people are not trying to make an emotive 'who will think of the poor babies' argument, where the pro-life people clearly are. As such it seems entirely reasonable to ask pro-lifers why they are so keen that new babies be born at a time when so many existing babies are starving to death.

The RCC Church has a long history in charity, and even when some injustices did occur in mother and baby homes / orphanages / institutions etc not all were badly run.

Why were these women there in the first place?

Because society put them there!!! What about the men who made these women pregnant? Why did they shirk their responsibility? Even today pregnant girls are been shunned / thrown out of their family home.

The RCC haven't exactly covered themselves in glory when it comes to mothers and babies now have they?

Even today the taxpayer picks up the tab for single mothers, yet the fathers have not much financial responsibility.

Yet at the same time, many of those same fathers might spout pro-life rhetoric on the simple basis that the consequences of doing so will never impact them. Perhaps you should be applauding the women who take the decision to have an abortion rather than becoming single mothers and a burden to the taxpayer.

J C · 28-01-2018 02:49PM

Dionysis wrote: »

Why has it not? Is there any particular reason?
Also based on the above, please correct me, in Irish Law the unborn fetus is considered a person and has rights?
Is there any particular age, in months obviously, that this law for criminal damage can be in Acted?
Any finally, you say above criminal damage is that, damage to a property/ possession or damage to a person, would it be worded differently if the law wS against damage to a person?
Not a solicitor so have to ask?

In principle, it extends back to conception.

J C · 28-01-2018 02:57PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

But living your life according to the teachings of a 2000 year old book that was written by shepherds is logical and reasonable :rolleyes:

More old anti-christ guff.

The gospels were written by a Medical Doctor (Luke) and a Tax Colector (Matthew) as well as the other two evangelists (Mark and John).

They are based on the inspired word of Jesus Christ, who is true man (and who therefore, understands everything from our perspective) and true God (and who therefore understands everything).
I'd say it would be quite a good idea to read what the scriptures have to say, allright.

SusieBlue · 28-01-2018 03:05PM

J C wrote: »

Both are important.

... and the Simon Community was founded by a Christian, Anton Wallich-Clifford and its work was modelled on Simon of Cyrene, who helped Jesus to carry His cross to Calvary.
... so Christians aren't solely focussed on abortion ... they put their money and time where their mouths are, across the whole spectrum of care for their fellow man.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Community

Quote:-
"The Simon Community is a charity which helps homeless people, taking its name from Simon of Cyrene. It was founded in 1963 by Anton Wallich-Clifford who had encountered many homeless people while working for the Probation Service at Bow Street Magistrates Court. Wallich-Clifford was influenced by the work of Dorothy Day and her Catholic Worker Movement in the USA and his original vision was to establish a farm and community in Sussex but local protests prevented this and the organisation developed as a chain of houses and night shelters run by local volunteers."

So, to be clear, you are of the opinion that the song of the possible perspective of an unborn embryo of is of completely equal value to that of a man who suffered an extremely difficult life due to the failings of the state?
Are you actually serious?

The mythical feelings of the unborn have no factual basis. None whatsoever. They could feel the very opposite for all you know.

The man I spoke about, unfortunately, his experiences and feelings are extremely real. They actually happened. Giving the song of the unborn the same weight as what happened to him is actually bizarre.

Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

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