Solo (young Han Solo film) spoilers from post 1493

Falthyron · 22-01-2018 01:29PM

david75 wrote: »

The Last Jedi is especially dense. More than any other Star Wars film. Weird contrast to TFA which flies along.

The most 'dense' thing about The Last Jedi is Leia's spacewalk. I can not, for the life of me, understand how and why someone signed-off on that scene. :pac:

david75 · 22-01-2018 01:39PM

Falthyron wrote: »

The most 'dense' thing about The Last Jedi is Leia's spacewalk. I can not, for the life of me, understand how and why someone signed-off on that scene. :pac:

So you’ve said. I was referring to the narrative. Every single character has an arc and something to do. The plot is very thick. Maybe too much going on where with fewer main characters it could have focused on them rather than everyone getting screen time. Rogue one was even worse for this. Way too many main characters and no time to develop any of them. But at least they all had one mission / one goal. TLJ has every character on a different story thread. And they all fail in their assigned missions / stories.
Chewie doesn’t even get to eat the porg.

Tony EH · 22-01-2018 02:09PM

Falthyron wrote: »

:pac:

Nothing, really. Action supersedes storytelling in Star Wars (the hint is in the latter word of the franchise's title), so things have to move swiftly, which doesn't allow for complex plot lines, motives, character development to simmer.

Give me a 'My Dinner with Andre' style Star Wars film featuring Obi-Wan and someone else. Now, THAT, would be interesting.

Exactly, I don't see anything at all that's dense or complex about Star Wars films, especially 'The Last Jedi'.

Seriously though, would you like 2 hours of Kenobi and *.* in Mos Eisley talking on a philosophical topics?

Tony EH · 22-01-2018 02:13PM

Falthyron wrote: »

The most 'dense' thing about The Last Jedi is Leia's spacewalk. I can not, for the life of me, understand how and why someone signed-off on that scene. :pac:

It's because Kathleen wanted it.

Falthyron · 22-01-2018 02:18PM

Tony EH wrote: »

Exactly, I don't see anything at all that's dense or complex about Star Wars films, especially 'The Last Jedi'.

Seriously though, would you like 2 hours of Kenobi and *.* in Mos Eisley talking on a philosophical topics?

Here is my pitch for the Obi-Wan film (if there has to be one):

A relic hunter and historian manages to track down a man called Old Ben on Tatooine. As Old Ben is 'old', the historian wants to ask him if he knows anything about the two Jedi who visited here decades ago as he is trying to chronicle the history of the Jedi Order. Ben, intrigued by the idea, and perhaps sees the value in retaining an accurate history of what the Jedi stood for (particularly with the Sith and Empire doing their utmost to rid the galaxy of any remnants of the Jedi Order), agrees to chat with the chronicler. Ben tells the story of an older Jedi Knight called Obi-Wan Kenobi who once came to the planet during a rescue mission for a Queen from the planet of Naboo. However, Ben says that story has been told before and would rather tell the man the story of how the Jedi will return. Then begins the tale of Obi-Wan Kenobi and his mission to find the last of the Jedi Order after leaving Luke with Uncle Owen and Aunt Lars. Although he doesn't find any Jedi (and chooses to avoid going anywhere near Dagobah for fear of leading the Empire to Yoda), he decides to find the origins of the Sith, where they came from, who they are, their purpose, and in return, discovers how the Sith and Jedi were once the same order, divided by a civil war over their role in the galaxy.

This can be told in a similar fashion to The Usual Suspects.

david75 · 22-01-2018 02:32PM

Do I have to clarify I meant dense as in really busy and a lot goin on and not the other meaning stupid/dumb

If you don’t think the last Jedi was dense we definitely are talking about different films

and I say that as a fan.

Tony EH · 22-01-2018 02:36PM

But, every Star Wars film has a lot going on.

david75 · 22-01-2018 02:46PM

Tony EH wrote: »

But, every Star Wars film has a lot going on.

Yeah but maybe in the editing and storytelling the OT at least feels like it has a lot more room to breath and much simpler narratives and all our focus on the two main storylines. For example Luke’s over here training with Yoda. Han and Leia are over here On bespin. That’s it. TLJ you have what, 4 or 5 different storylines happening? It’s a lot to take in and it could be argued a simpler slender story focusing on only one or two characters would be better. TFA was really simple like this too.

TerrorFirmer · 22-01-2018 05:24PM

I think the only real density in TLJ is within the character of Kylo Ren, but the film itself on the whole is pretty single track despite all the bluster. Not saying that as a criticism necessarily, but just as I see it.

The OT has hidden depths as well, for example this fan re-working of Luke and Ben (using the soundtrack from the amazing and haunting 'The Leftovers') really amplifies what a magnificant performance Alec Guiness put in, but it's sadly largely lost because you tend to be more fixated on Luke and the weapon he's holding, Guinesses excellent performance tends to get lost a bit...more astounding given that he actually somewhat hated his role Star Wars.

But this fan edit really brings it out wonderfully.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN74bOubUug

Sad Professor · 22-01-2018 05:56PM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

The OT has hidden depths as well, for example this fan re-working of Luke and Ben (using the soundtrack from the amazing and haunting 'The Leftovers') really amplifies what a magnificant performance Alec Guiness put in, but it's sadly largely lost because you tend to be more fixated on Luke and the weapon he's holding, Guinesses excellent performance tends to get lost a bit...more astounding given that he actually somewhat hated his role Star Wars.

But this fan edit really brings it out wonderfully.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN74bOubUug

Not to take anything away from Guinness (and I'm going to go a bit nerdy here) but that video is a triumph of the Kuleshov effect and Max Richter, the combination of which could probably make anyone seem like a great actor. The viewer is projecting their own emotional reaction to the images and the music onto Guinness. It's a good cinematic effect, but by chopping up his performance I'd argue it's taking away from it. A better way to bring it out would be to cut out all the coverage of Luke and zoom in on Obi-wan in the master shots, but I'm not sure enough of Guinness's performance survived into the final cut for that to work.

david75 · 22-01-2018 08:38PM

If you watch the scene play in the film and keep an eye on Obi wan, knowing what we know now, it is almost like Guinness knows the whole story and is portraying by it as Ohi wan being selective about the truth he tells Luke and what he doesn’t tell him. His performance just with his eyes is great.

You’re dead right, we are attaching this to it cos we have benefit of hindsight but damn if it doesn’t play out brilliantly in his performance.

TerrorFirmer · 22-01-2018 11:54PM

Exactly. Sad Prof is right - we're being played like an emotional fiddle by Max Richters brilliant score, but I do believe that it works so well because we have the benefit of hindsight, and that we find a whole new appreication for the sublteness of Guinesses performance....a performance that largely went unrecognised in its time for what it was. Guiness himself disliked the role - hated Star Wars in the end - but he gave it 110%...and it shows, when we take time to really admire it.

david75 · 23-01-2018 12:00AM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Exactly. Sad Prof is right - we're being played like an emotional fiddle by Max Richters brilliant score, but I do believe that it works so well because we have the benefit of hindsight, and that we find a whole new appreication for the sublteness of Guinesses performance....a performance that largely went unrecognised in its time for what it was. Guiness himself disliked the role - hated Star Wars in the end - but he gave it 110%...and it shows, when we take time to really admire it.

He disliked it initially. But came around. Once The cheques started coming in and then later George gave him further points. By empire Guinness loved Star Wars as much as anyone. There’s footage of him talking about it.
He had something like 1.25 points on all Star Wars profits before Disney took over. A serious amount of money each year.

Tony EH · 23-01-2018 12:06AM

Yeh, Guinness "hating" Star Wars is a bit of a myth. He speaks quite fondly of it in several interviews. There's a Parkinson interview from the late 70's and he's nothing but good things to say about it.

I'm sure he thought it was all a bit silly and he made a mistake taking the job, while he was filming it - he wasn't the only one.

But, in the end, I think he thought differently. At the very least, it gave him a very hefty pension to be thankful for.

Sad Professor · 23-01-2018 12:12AM

Here's Guinness taking lovingly about SW and its fans in his memoirs:

david75 · 23-01-2018 12:23AM

Sad Professor wrote: »

Here's Guinness taking lovingly about SW and its fans in his memoirs:

Haha!! Point well made and again Obi wan has the foresight to see what would happen.

But he didn’t say no to the benefits it brought him. At any point.

david75 · 23-01-2018 12:36AM

So...Jabba burgers. This film is gonna be deadly

david75 · 23-01-2018 10:14AM

2 hour 23 minute run time turning up in a few places.

Bit long? Also suggests a locked print.

.ak · 24-01-2018 08:46PM

Sad Professor wrote: »

Not to take anything away from Guinness (and I'm going to go a bit nerdy here) but that video is a triumph of the Kuleshov effect and Max Richter, the combination of which could probably make anyone seem like a great actor. The viewer is projecting their own emotional reaction to the images and the music onto Guinness. It's a good cinematic effect, but by chopping up his performance I'd argue it's taking away from it. A better way to bring it out would be to cut out all the coverage of Luke and zoom in on Obi-wan in the master shots, but I'm not sure enough of Guinness's performance survived into the final cut for that to work.

You're probably right... But it does raise the point, why is Guinness acting so shady in that scene? Nobody knew Anakin = Vader at that stage of filming. Guinness is a world class actor, so why is he acting like he knows something that he wants to shield from Luke?

It's interesting, considering at the time he had no faith in the writing or dialogue.

Falthyron · 24-01-2018 09:00PM

.ak wrote: »

You're probably right... But it does raise the point, why is Guinness acting so shady in that scene? Nobody knew Anakin = Vader at that stage of filming. Guinness is a world class actor, so why is he acting like he knows something that he wants to shield from Luke?

It's interesting, considering at the time he had no faith in the writing or dialogue.

At the moment his eyes glaze over, he isn't thinking about turning Anakin into a triple amputee (because he has no knowledge of that), he is thinking about whether or not he left the iron plugged in at home.

Sad Professor · 24-01-2018 09:18PM

.ak wrote: »

You're probably right... But it does raise the point, why is Guinness acting so shady in that scene? Nobody knew Anakin = Vader at that stage of filming. Guinness is a world class actor, so why is he acting like he knows something that he wants to shield from Luke?

It's interesting, considering at the time he had no faith in the writing or dialogue.

And it's not just his performance, it's the way the editing focuses on it. The little beat and flick of hesitation in his eyes at the start of the shot before he answers Luke. Had they cut out the dead air and gone straight to him speaking there would be nothing really strange about how Guinness answers. Hamill said Lucas gave Guinness no direction in that scene, so I reckon they were just making the most of Guinness's performance in editing. And in the absence of any direction from Lucas he just decided to play it that way just to make it interesting.

It wouldn't surprise me actually if Guinness's performance in this scene was the inspiration for the Vader twist. I mean, Lucas probably watched that moment hundreds of times in editing. Unconsciously maybe it made him wonder if Obi-wan was telling the truth.

Falthyron wrote: »

At the moment his eyes glaze over, he isn't thinking about turning Anakin into a triple amputee (because he has no knowledge of that), he is thinking about whether or not he left the iron plugged in at home.

Reminds me of McGregor saying that most of the time when he's silently standing behind Liam's shoulder in TPM (as he does for the pretty much the entire film) that he was thinking about what's for lunch.

david75 · 24-01-2018 09:45PM

Guinness’ performance must have given George some kind of an idea. We’re just lucky it plays so well now that we have the whole story and it looks like Obi wan knows a lot more than he’s saying and is trying to motivate luke but it’s far too soon to tell him the truth.

Falthyron · 24-01-2018 09:55PM

"Jesus. I won an Oscar and now I am doing this shíte. Will David Lean ever work with me again? Is that it for my career? What the fúck am I saying?"

david75 · 24-01-2018 09:57PM

Hey he got nominated for obi wan. Which is bizarre in its own way.

Sad Professor · 24-01-2018 10:00PM

I wish there Guinness-type actor in the new films. Someone not afraid to tell the fans they are nuts or to get a life, etc. Actors are too nice to fandoms these day, almost like they are afraid of upsetting them. It's not healthy.

Falthyron · 24-01-2018 10:04PM

Sad Professor wrote: »

I wish there Guinness-type actor in the new films. Someone not afraid to tell the fans they are nuts or to get a life, etc. Actors are too nice to fandoms these day, almost like they are afraid of upsetting them. It's not healthy.

It wouldn't wash well with the 'Everything is Awesome' generation. I agree with you though. We need a lot more healthy objective criticism and skepticism. I think Mark Hamill sort of challenged the 'Everything is Awesome' crowd when he told people to not expect the opportunity to relive their childhood through TLJ. He got a slap on the wrist and the rest of the marketing and crew drowned him out.

Falthyron · 24-01-2018 10:05PM

david75 wrote: »

Hey he got nominated for obi wan. Which is bizarre in its own way.

True, but he had no idea how famous he would become after this film. While filming it I am sure the paycheck was the only thing getting him through the entire ordeal.

david75 · 24-01-2018 10:10PM

Sad Professor wrote: »

I wish there Guinness-type actor in the new films. Someone not afraid to tell the fans they are nuts or to get a life, etc. Actors are too nice to fandoms these day, almost like they are afraid of upsetting them. It's not healthy.

Harrison ford and Lucas himself have been performing this function and still do, to this day.

Sad Professor · 24-01-2018 10:21PM

david75 wrote: »

Harrison ford and Lucas himself have been performing this function and still do, to this day.

Neither of whom are involved in the films anymore. And Ford was very well behaved while doing press for TFA.

Tony EH · 24-01-2018 10:22PM

Sad Professor wrote: »

I wish there Guinness-type actor in the new films. Someone not afraid to tell the fans they are nuts or to get a life, etc. Actors are too nice to fandoms these day, almost like they are afraid of upsetting them. It's not healthy.

Falthyron wrote: »

It wouldn't wash well with the 'Everything is Awesome' generation. I agree with you though. We need a lot more healthy objective criticism and skepticism. I think Mark Hamill sort of challenged the 'Everything is Awesome' crowd when he told people to not expect the opportunity to relive their childhood through TLJ. He got a slap on the wrist and the rest of the marketing and crew drowned him out.

I guess that's what happens when you monitise "nerd culture". Lots of nice, big, fat, paychecks riding on it. I'm almost certain that Hamill has had a number of "WTF Mark? Waddaya doin' man? STFU!" type messages from the marketing dept.

I remember the days when Star Wars were films you either liked or didn't like and the only discussion was which one was the best, or which one you saw first.

Now there's philosophical debates on whether Ben Kenobi was "lying" or not in the 1977 film.

Solo (young Han Solo film) *spoilers from post 1493*

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Solo (young Han Solo film) spoilers from post 1493