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Wonders never cease
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nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »None, which is why I said earlier that I could pull out the figures but as I said "I am not sure it would be any use to either of us". And I also said "That you as an individual get a lot from it however, is something no one can or should take away from!"
All that REALLY matters though is there is a wealth of options out there for someone in your position, and that you openly tried them all until finding the one that worked best for you. There is no science or philosophy or narrative that can be more important than that on the individual level.
I just think there are two conversations worth having. There is the conversation about what you PERSONALLY get from it. And there is the conversation about the efficacy and utility and risks and harms of having AA in society as a whole. And there is very little two way traffic between those two conversations.
What is useful to a "suffering alcoholic" is there are people working in fields like epidemiology in our world, evaluating all kinds of treatments for efficacy, in a way that means when the next alcoholic presents themselves looking for our help.......... we send them first and foremost towards the treatments we have good expectations will actually help them.
And we should have no other agenda than that, or above that!
That is true for sure! No argument from me. But what I would ADD to it is that there are numbers of people who think AA is representative of group therapy as a whole. And they go to it under the impression it should work for them. In fact some places, like the US, often have Judges in Court hand down orders that certain people MUST go to AA.
So people go along fully expecting it to be useful and effective, even though their own figures suggest a 5% success rate akin to spontaneous remission. And that is EQUALLY dangerous to what you call dangerous. Because if AA fails that 95%..... are they then likely to give up on group therapy as a whole.......... such as therapies with better results.... or a more open door policy to review and change and study?
Our target as a society should not be to send any given alcoholic to AA just because AA is a household name. It should be to evaluate ALL treatments (whether they like it or not, for shame AA for closing the doors to that) and send each given alcoholic first to the treatment that A) seems to best fit them and
statistically shows the best potential for a result.
I have heard that said a lot, but it is rarely the case in reality. At the frontiers of science some specifics within any given context change a lot. But something being considered "accepted" before later being "disproven" is remarkably rare. Generally established Scientific Theory remains consistent, even if minor specifics within it change a lot.
A good example of that is biological history of human evolution. Nothing about the theory of our origins and general evolutionary line has changed in a LONG time. But specifics such as specifically how long ago our line rose........ changes relatively often.
It is like a Mini and an Audi looking very different, but internally the basics of the combustion engine remain pretty much constant. (Ok dont know cars that well to be honest, but it is constant enough to make the analogy hold).
As for questioning the validity of some scientific findings.... keep doing that! It would not BE science if we didn't!. You are clearly an individual capable of thought, and conversation, and patience, and open consideration of the other. And that is exactly the kind of person the world of science requires. Even if only as a lay outsider with no interest of ever working in the field.
A few years ago, I would of struggled to have such an open conversation on AA. Maybe this is an example of "right time" conversation where I am open to the program being challenged without my own personal sobriety feeling threatened. I am also comfortable saying "I don't know, maybe you are right" without feeling like I should just ditch AA and seeing what happens. I find it liberating accepting that there maybe better options available to me in the future but right now I will plod along with what works until something better comes along.
I don't get the benefit of forcing a person into AA because I have found that wanting to find the solution (searching and giving that solution a good try) to be paramount for my "success". AA literature would suggest that in the early years, when they only "recruited" the worst of the worst, the success rate was much higher. This would indicate to me that being desperate and feeling hopeless after exhausting most avenues can be lead to a mindset that is more open to being compliant and possibly improve your chances of AA working. Part of the problem, like we discussed is the non regulation of who is helping who and the different interpretations of AA teachings which can lead to an inconsistent program for different people .
I've actually wondered if I would have the intelligence/patience to find a career in science. I'm not sure if I have the discipline or qualities to achieve a feat. This could partially be down to low self esteem and to my negative memories of school where I struggled to study because of lack of sleep and chronic depression. I suppose I feel I am good learning from personal experience but I would not consider myself good at sitting down and reading facts and figures.
I am actually in a really good place, exploring all opportunities - singing, acting and other things. I would like to find a hobby and/or profession I really enjoy. I suppose in the scientific world I haven't seriously investigated if there are jobs I would enjoy.0 -
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A few years ago, I would of struggled to have such an open conversation on AA. Maybe this is an example of "right time" conversation where I am open to the program being challenged without my own personal sobriety feeling threatened.
Yea, if I had even the first inkling you were not in that place I would not have entered into this discussion with you either. Your style of writing, and immersion in the topic, and openness to discourse, and your maturity in having something clearly dear to you questioned openly........... led me to believe it was not thin ice. Glad to see I was not wrong! As I certainly would not want to enter this conversation with someone who I suspect could be harmed by it.
But rather than thinking you could be harmed by it, I think you are in the position to rationally distill what WAS useful from it, from what likely did nothing at all, and take the good with you going forward. And that is a great position in which to have worked yourself, and you deserve all the related praise and respect for having gotten there.
But lighten the mood with a sound analogy, but one chosen for it's absurdity. Imagine all the posts you have written so far on the subject, but replace "AA" with "hitting myself over the head with a banana".
Then think of sentences of the form "It would have been dangerous for me to talk to you years ago, as I might not have then tried hitting myself over the head with a banana, and found it worked for me!"
Ok as I said that is deliberately being absurd to lighten the mood a bit, so I hope you take the humor in the spirit intended!
But the core take away from it should be that while we would recognize, and not want to take away from, the efficacy in that guys life of hitting himself over the head with a banana........... we can still have a SEPARATE conversation, that should not take away from the first, about how the data shows little benefit for alcoholics in general from yellow-flora-facial-flagellation and how much data shows it is not generally effective at all for all that many people.
And such a conversation could ask "well if yellow-flora-facial-flagellation is unlikely to have helped him, but he clearly HAS been helped, is it possible there were other factors in play that we could distill and learn from, and maybe even implement with even more efficacy elsewhere?".I am actually in a really good place, exploring all opportunities - singing, acting and other things. I would like to find a hobby and/or profession I really enjoy. I suppose in the scientific world I haven't seriously investigated if there are jobs I would enjoy.
Do not know if you mentioned, or did I just not notice, your age. You write like someone much older than someone I would picture in the early stages of finding a career. I know it is rude to ask but....
Well done on the acting. I suffered from shyness in my early and middle years and through a few different programs and methodologies I overcame it. Or at least buried it in a fashion that means it is functionally and effectively gone. And one of the highlights of this was the ONE time I did acting. Three nights in a row on stage in front of 300 people each night. One Flew Over the Cuckoos nest. Even then I do not think I could ever Sing in front of people I am not THAT cured 0 -
nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »Yea, if I had even the first inkling you were not in that place I would not have entered into this discussion with you either. Your style of writing, and immersion in the topic, and openness to discourse, and your maturity in having something clearly dear to you questioned openly........... led me to believe it was not thin ice. Glad to see I was not wrong! As I certainly would not want to enter this conversation with someone who I suspect could be harmed by it.
But rather than thinking you could be harmed by it, I think you are in the position to rationally distill what WAS useful from it, from what likely did nothing at all, and take the good with you going forward. And that is a great position in which to have worked yourself, and you deserve all the related praise and respect for having gotten there.
But lighten the mood with a sound analogy, but one chosen for it's absurdity. Imagine all the posts you have written so far on the subject, but replace "AA" with "hitting myself over the head with a banana".
Then think of sentences of the form "It would have been dangerous for me to talk to you years ago, as I might not have then tried hitting myself over the head with a banana, and found it worked for me!"
Ok as I said that is deliberately being absurd to lighten the mood a bit, so I hope you take the humor in the spirit intended!
But the core take away from it should be that while we would recognize, and not want to take away from, the efficacy in that guys life of hitting himself over the head with a banana........... we can still have a SEPARATE conversation, that should not take away from the first, about how the data shows little benefit for alcoholics in general from yellow-flora-facial-flagellation and how much data shows it is not generally effective at all for all that many people.
And such a conversation could ask "well if yellow-flora-facial-flagellation is unlikely to have helped him, but he clearly HAS been helped, is it possible there were other factors in play that we could distill and learn from, and maybe even implement with even more efficacy elsewhere?".
Do not know if you mentioned, or did I just not notice, your age. You write like someone much older than someone I would picture in the early stages of finding a career. I know it is rude to ask but....
Well done on the acting. I suffered from shyness in my early and middle years and through a few different programs and methodologies I overcame it. Or at least buried it in a fashion that means it is functionally and effectively gone. And one of the highlights of this was the ONE time I did acting. Three nights in a row on stage in front of 300 people each night. One Flew Over the Cuckoos nest. Even then I do not think I could ever Sing in front of people I am not THAT cured
If I decide to share our discussion with other AA members (who I feel can actually discuss it rationally) I will tell them that some scientist told me to replace AA with hitting myself over the head with a banana.
Its actually a good way of explaining your stance on AA.
I didn't mean to make out I am young cause I'm not , hitting 40 in a few months. For a long time I had the emotional sobriety of a young teenager so maybe theres still a bit of that in my posting!
Wow, 300 people, that's ridiculously impressive, well done on that. Funny coincidence that it was "one flew over the cuckoos nest" because I was only marking that movie down on my IMDB app 3 days ago as "one to watch". I know this was just a complete random chance (that you picked out one thing that I just happened to be thinking of in the last few days), but despite not being particularly religious I find these random things interesting. I presume it can be rationally explained away, but it sort of feels a little like I was meant to have this conversation with you.
I'm just at the exploratory phase on the acting. Did a 4 week beginner course before Christmas. Have tried being extra in things over the last few years, but I'm not pushing myself hard to commit to anything (not sure if that's good or bad!).0 -
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Haha I can not decide, if that were all you took away from the conversation to tell other AA people about, would that make me terribly sad or terribly happy I am somewhat overly proud of the phrase "yellow-flora-facial-flagellation"
I won't bore you with my equally clinical take on life coincidences But yea OFOTCN manages to be a great book, a great film, and even a great stage play. The lead actor on stage with us was someone who had appeared quite a few times in Fair City. So it was even more nerve wracking sharing the stage with a semi professional actor. All amateurs is nerve racking enough. But someone who has actually studied acting at the level of university just upped my angst. 0 -
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