Munster's Gerbrandt Grobler signing - right or wrong?

thomond2006 · 17-01-2018 01:54PM

Slideshowbob wrote: »

The irony of the IRFU castigating Zebo from the Irish team for wanting to earn what he can abroad, while at the same time approving Grobler's signing .........

Sangre · 17-01-2018 02:02PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Of course. I'm not saying there is no benefit, but when you are cycling up the side of a mountain you don't need to be worrying about passing off your weak side, hitting the breakdown or catching a garryowen.

The benefit of PED's in rugby is limited to the purely physical side of a game that is about a lot more.

Another thing is that I've read what some professional players are doing in the gym and whilst some are doing big numbers the majority are doing decent but not outrageous workouts.

Probably the most impressive thing about rugby players is their ability to mix power with skill and endurance over 60 - 80 minutes. Again these are all things that require different training and aren't going to be uniformly benefited by one type of drug.

I can believe with some exceptions that a lot of the players we see are for the most part clean.

There is obviously a more immediate benefit for the individual sports you mentioned. However, baseball and NFL in the states show that team sports can also be rife with drugs.

Shefwedfan · 17-01-2018 02:07PM

Slideshowbob wrote: »

The irony of the IRFU castigating Zebo from the Irish team for wanting to earn what he can abroad, while at the same time approving Grobler's signing .........

Do we need to try and drag Zebo into every thread no matter how thin the link is

Get over it......Zebo is gone, end of story

Buer · 17-01-2018 02:14PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Do we need to try and drag Zebo into every thread no matter how thin the link is

Get over it......Zebo is gone, end of story

Exactly!

Now, if the IRFU had coughed up for Donnacha Ryan then Grobler wouldn't have been needed. That's the real debate.

Zzippy · 17-01-2018 02:34PM

On a personal level, once could say he served his ban and deserves a second chance. But playing devil's advocate - steroids give a performance boost long after an athlete has stopped taking them. It's easier to maintain muscle than to build it - an athlete who uses steroids to get bigger can maintain that size long after he stops juicing. That's a long term benefit. It's possible he took that risk knowing he would gain a long term advantage over other players, and just bad luck that he got caught while juicing.

Do I think players deserve a second chance? Yes, but not after just 2 years

Do I think a 2 year ban is long enough for steroids? No, it's far too short and not a harsh enough deterrent

Do I think IRFU should have permitted this signing? Absolutely not

Shefwedfan · 17-01-2018 02:38PM

Buer wrote: »

Exactly!

Now, if the IRFU had coughed up for Donnacha Ryan then Grobler wouldn't have been needed. That's the real debate.

It wasn't the IRFU, it was Munster that didn't cough up

He was moved from central contract and then left to Munster to negotiate.

The issue here is the bad running of Munster.....

In regards to Grobler, why sign him if he is never going to play? even before this storm in tea cup he hasn't played a minute

Former Former · 17-01-2018 02:45PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

In regards to Grobler, why sign him if he is never going to play? even before this storm in tea cup he hasn't played a minute

He injured himself in a pre-season match. He's only back fit now.

I don't think there's any question that he'd have had significant game time if he'd been fit, by all accounts he's very good. Very possibly he'd have been ahead of Holland, absolutely certain he'd have been ahead of Wycherly/Flanagan/O'Shea.

Played an A game last weekend, I'd be surprised if he plays for the seniors this week considering the furor and it will be a walkover anyway, but when we get into the business end of the season, it's going to be very tempting to use him.
.

Henry Ford III · 17-01-2018 02:51PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It wasn't the IRFU, it was Munster that didn't cough up

He was moved from central contract and then left to Munster to negotiate.

The issue here is the bad running of Munster.....

In regards to Grobler, why sign him if he is never going to play? even before this storm in tea cup he hasn't played a minute

All player contracts and offers are IRFU rubber stamped.

Ryan wanted to move. The central contract thing is a smoke screen. He was never styaing.

Grobler played and got injured in a pre season game at Worcester. When fully fit he's a top class 2nd row. He played 20+ games for Racing 92 last season.

sydthebeat · 17-01-2018 02:52PM

http://www.the42.ie/irfu-browne-doping-grobler-3802087-Jan2018/

overlord PB himself wrote:

“There will continue to be foreign players brought into Ireland for a variety of reasons. Whether it’s to make up the numbers in a certain position, whether it’s to bring those cachet players who add value and we know the players, we can all name them, who have added value to what we’re doing.

I foresee that continuing. In terms of: ‘are we going to bring in drug cheats’ the answer is: I don’t think we are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lChEbiig6EY

joseywhales · 17-01-2018 02:52PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Buer wrote: »

Exactly!

Now, if the IRFU had coughed up for Donnacha Ryan then Grobler wouldn't have been needed. That's the real debate.

It wasn't the IRFU, it was Munster that didn't cough up

He was moved from central contract and then left to Munster to negotiate.

The issue here is the bad running of Munster.....

In regards to Grobler, why sign him if he is never going to play? even before this storm in tea cup he hasn't played a minute

To help Munster get their "elite sports nutrition" programme off the ground!
All jokes, it does erode the brand, they should cut their losses here maybe but like most major problems in corporations, getting people to admit mistakes, eating sunk cost and moving on is the hardest thing. It's like humans are incapable psychologically of being wrong.

17-01-2018 03:18PM

joseywhales wrote: »

It's like humans are incapable psychologically of being wrong.

phog · 17-01-2018 03:38PM

Deleted User wrote: »

And if your son or daughter lost their place to a cheat I'm sure you would feel the same way.

Former Former wrote: »

And if your son was a pro rugby player trying to get every minute of game time he can to establish himself, and he finds himself on the bench or in the stands while a convicted drugs cheat lines out?

It's a zero sum game. Grobler plays, someone else has to drop out.

If you are Fineen Wycherly, or Darren O'Shea, how do you feel about it? Do you still want Grobler getting his second chance at your expense?

Munster/IRFU obviously decided an NIQ replacement for Ryan was needed if it was wasn't Grobler then it was going to be someone else.

Every player and parent will think they deserve their game time but I'm sure they too would like to get a second chance too if the need arose

thebaz · 17-01-2018 04:02PM

Zzippy wrote: »

Do I think players deserve a second chance? Yes, but not after just 2 years

Do I think a 2 year ban is long enough for steroids? No, it's far too short and not a harsh enough deterrent

how long is long enough ? some will want life bans - personally, I think 2 years is about right - very difficult to get back in the game after a 2 yesr break anyway - I know people who struggle big time to get back into rugby even after one year.

ps caught twice then I agree a ban for life.

Trojan · 17-01-2018 04:04PM

Philip Browne comes across terribly in that interview.

"That doesn't come to me ... but I'm not ducking the question"

"If you'd I'll explain. I'll just continue... just let me explain"

(Ok, Philip, let's hear you explain!)

Filibuster, filibuster, filibuster...

Assistant: "We have to wrap this up"

irishbucsfan · 17-01-2018 04:09PM

To be honest I think the IRFU should announce that they're going to hold a review and will announce any new policy in the offseason.

To at least park the dicussion. That will placate people enough to at least let Grobler concentrate on his job. I'm starting to feel bad for him because I reckon he's a decent bloke who probably feels extremely guilty.

Tim Robbins · 17-01-2018 04:14PM

Wrong. As is signing South African's who are only 18 just out of school on the player project program.

17-01-2018 04:21PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

To be honest I think the IRFU should announce that they're going to hold a review and will announce any new policy in the offseason.

To at least park the dicussion. That will placate people enough to at least let Grobler concentrate on his job. I'm starting to feel bad for him because I reckon he's a decent bloke who probably feels extremely guilty.

It's a spotlight he could do without.

I don't think this will ever happen again, the IRFU and Munster have been damaged by it and no one player is worth it. Regardless of what I think about him playing, I don't think Grobler needs to have this brought back up and thrown at him at this stage when he has been welcomed into the team.

I'd be happy at this point if the IRFU enforced what it refers to as it's zero tolerance rule.

phog · 17-01-2018 04:24PM

Carlo Del Fava

While playing rugby in South Africa, Del Fava served a two-year ban after testing positive for the banned substance stanozolol

Played in Ireland from 2007 to 09

Where was the outcry then? When did a drug ban become an outrage?

Turnipman · 17-01-2018 04:26PM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Wrong. As is signing South African's who are only 18 just out of school on the player project program.

Yep. For me that stinks to high heaven.

The only money that I'll ever be giving the IRFU or Munster Rugby will come indirectly through my Sky and BT Sports subscriptions, but if I was considering purchasing tickets or merchandise from either body then that kind of shabby carry-on would certainly make me think twice.

Henry Ford III · 17-01-2018 04:26PM

phog wrote: »

Carlo Del Fava

Played in Ireland from 2007 to 09

Where was the outcry then? When did a drug ban become an outrage?

Good find. I don't recall any outrage at the time, or even during hi international career.

Hypocrisy is alive and well.

Beechwoodspark · 17-01-2018 04:27PM

It’s damage limitation mode at this stage. Given the media storm lately I wonder if he will play even a minute of competitive rugby for Munster.

Owta Control · 17-01-2018 04:29PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It wasn't the IRFU, it was Munster that didn't cough up

He was moved from central contract and then left to Munster to negotiate.

The issue here is the bad running of Munster.....

In regards to Grobler, why sign him if he is never going to play? even before this storm in tea cup he hasn't played a minute

Because as anyone who was following the story and was actually interested knows, he's been injured since a pre season game

Owta Control · 17-01-2018 04:32PM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

It’s damage limitation mode at this stage. Given the media storm lately I wonder if he will play even a minute of competitive rugby for Munster.

He'll play at the weekend

Buer · 17-01-2018 04:35PM

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Good find. I don't recall any outrage at the time, or even during hi international career.

Hypocrisy is alive and well.

Times change and the world is much smaller along with rugby being under far more scrutiny. If CDF signed today you can be sure the signing would be questioned.

The level of coverage of drugs in sport has absolutely exploded in the past 5 years in this part of the world. If Grobler had joined a decade ago, it would have flown under the radar too.

It's unlucky for Grobler that he's the fall guy in the situation but that's the reality of it.

thomond2006 · 17-01-2018 04:36PM

phog wrote: »

Carlo Del Fava

Played in Ireland from 2007 to 09

Where was the outcry then? When did a drug ban become an outrage?

I think it's not too bad on the hypocrisy scale if the only case you could find was from 12 years ago.

You're also better off looking towards NI media to see if it was covered at the time. Ulster for better or worse don't get near the same level of coverage in ROI media that Munster or Leinster do.

slingerz · 17-01-2018 04:53PM

Of course this guy should be allowed play. Its the same as saying he is not allowed to work.

A lot of misinformation being peddled by journos about the drug drost he used and its effects. It is typically used in the treatment of breast cancer to maintain existing muscle rather than the patient losing muscle and therefore strength in their treatment. It is not used to packing on or adding bulk to a person.

A lot of moral high grounding going on and grandstanding by journos

Trojan · 17-01-2018 05:04PM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Wrong. As is signing South African's who are only 18 just out of school on the player project program.

I just heard about that on Eggchasers Podcast - it's been noticed. Very surprising.

Neil3030 · 17-01-2018 05:08PM

How did this get so topical again, hasn't he already played for Munster in the preseason?

Former Former · 17-01-2018 05:11PM

Neil3030 wrote: »

How did this get so topical again, hasn't he already played for Munster in the preseason?

You've answered your own question there. No one cares about preseason games, most people aren't even aware they're happening.

But when a guy is in the mix for crucial Heineken Cup games, then it's more topical.

who_me · 17-01-2018 05:22PM

I don't know why this is such an issue. Unless you believe he's still using banned substances, or you believe being guilty of steroid abuse should result in a lifetime ban, what's the problem?

To be honest I suspect steroid abuse is more prevalent in Irish sport than we'd like or is publicly known. I'm not sure lifetime bans are the best way to tackle it, but if it that's the solution it should be adopted officially. Not some kind of "two year ban (* but really he should never play again)".

Munster's Gerbrandt Grobler signing - right or wrong?

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