Stutts/Elgin/Edler Twitter story

Monokne wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with any of what you say, I would just go back to my initial point. It just doesn't seem like this story will have anywhere close to those legs. It is the hardcore of the hardcore of the hardcore who know about it. I don't see an avenue from which the story can grow exponentially bigger given the names of the people involved.

His stuff on the board is insane. He honestly thinks he can just write with complete impunity. Social media has been a real bad look for Dave.

I agree the Meltzer stuff just may not stick, it’s really a case of if a wrestler or someone influential calls him out and it gains steam. The wrestlers and promotions disappearing stuff is already happening though. And I have a feeling this is just the start, anyone who knows wrestlers behind the scenes know they can be hounds (I’m not going to name names because this isn’t illegal or anything, but I’m in one group with a running joke about how you know when one high profile wrestler cheats on his wife...and it’s a lot). So it’s just a case of people speaking out, which will grow as they see more being able to do so and be supported.

I think Ireland is relatively scandal-free (though who even knows with this stuff) but the UK scene seems to have a lot of the same problems football is running into now about lack of screening or protection for minors.

A Rogue Hobo wrote: »

Is this the whole thing on twitter with the sexual assault and screen grabs and what not? Having researched it a bit a few weeks ago I'd assume the reason it's not getting too much circulation is because anyone who isn't tapped into the whole Twitter thing and has some form of rational thinking wouldn't be interested. Your one clearly has a grudge to settle, and doesn't exactly come off as the most emotionally stable person in the world, airing dirty laundry with a guy who comes off as a scumbag. Honestly, unless you're into the sort of tabloidy gossip, why would you validate either of them by giving them the spotlight they're craving??

Some would hang you out to dry for all of that, I’m not going to because I think you’re honestly reflecting how a lot of others feel about the topic and, in doing so, perhaps hit on why it’s not getting discussed a lot more. But questions...

What does her mental stability, or your perception of such, have to do with it if what she is saying is true? Elgin is yet to deny it publicly and even confirmed some of it by apologising to Jeff Cobb for revelations that came out through texts she revealed. If anything, if what she says is true then her mental stability would be more inclined to be affected, which is testament to how these things can impact victims. And the longer it goes on, the more it’s looking like she was telling the 100% truth all along.

Why should you care? Well because these people often took advantage of positions of power to bury victims and continue to work and succeed. Before Moses Malone, Pollyanna etc took to Twitter, they were banished from the community and written off as crazy. In the UK, these power structures contrived for known pedophiles and abusers to get away with their behaviour and continue to succeed within the business.

Who gives these people power? Well, you do. I do. We all do. If you say “Hey I’m just a fan, I don’t care what they do in their personal lives” and continue to go to shows, support online or even ignore, then you’re apart of the institution that protects people. The rumours about Edler endured within the industry for years apparently, but it was only when people spoke up on Twitter that he was finished. Wrestlers, many of whom likely knew the rumours already, burned him and promoters stopped working with him. He was finished overnight. But if everyone took your attitude of “that’s personal leave them to it”, we could know all of this and he’d still be running a promotion scot-free.

@A Rogue Hobo: In terms of #MeToo, there's a lot of misconceptions out there and I think it's good to have these open conversations (without people getting slated for not saying the 'right thing') when they come up as it helps people understand, and we're all better for that. Certainly a lot of what you say would've been the kind of stuff that would've crossed my mind at one stage, but I've kinda taken this whole period to learn about stuff like why women wouldn't report sexual assault and would feel more comfortable speaking on Twitter, and I feel that's helped me evolve my views on the matter.

For a start, what does her previous, consensual encounters with other wrestlers have to do with it? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're wrong for thinking it because it's the kind of thing that comes to mind initially and it's the kind of thing that gets brought up in sexual assault cases (hence women being afraid to come forward because they don't want their sexual history exposed publicly), but ask yourself why that matters. If anything, is the fact she's open about this stuff not an indication that she's honest? I also see what you mean about the Jeff Cobb thing, it did come across as a dirty tactic not relating to the incident she's looking to highlight. But then think about it from her standpoint: she's currently going through an attempted black-listing in wrestling while watching someone she sees as an abuser succeed on a high level completely unaffected. No matter what she says about his abuse, his career is fine while her reputation is in tatters, so you can at least see how someone would say "Well what if I posted this bit of incriminating stuff I have and see if that has an effect?" And it has. Elgin is believed to be finishing up with NJPW. Isn't it mental how bitching about the boys gets you fired but covering up sexual assault doesn't?

Tbh I haven't seen many false #MeToo reports that have had an impact, though I could be ignorant there and feel free to direct me towards some I may have missed, genuinely. I get that it's a fear, but when you think about it, it's actually more likely that a person would make a false accusation legally than publicly. Legally, it's one person's word against the other and if you can string together a believable story when the other person wasn't careful...it might just work. Going to trial by public opinion opens you up to MUCH more scrutiny and judgement, with minimal actual impact on the other person's life unless you've got a smoking gun.

Look at the Elgin case: only now after weeks of posting conversations that Elgin hasn't disputed are real has Moses started to make the tiniest bit of headway into getting something done. He's still working regularly, still technically has his NJPW gig, by and large most people still don't know about the story because people have the same hesitance to discuss it as was shown here. As for her? She's received as much doubt, scrutiny, criticism and personal comments as him. Your own post probably said more disparaging things about her than Elgin, and even you concede she's likely the victim here.

I think the best way to view #MeToo is to ask yourself "How would I feel if this happened to my partner/sister/female friend?" It changes how you view it, for sure. Even read the Aziz Ansari story that recently broke: you can pick holes in it and defend him until the cows come home, it's one of those morally ambiguous reports, but then when you ask if you'd like something like that happening to someone you care about? It's different.

As far as Edler and the UK scene go: Daniel Edler is a UK promoter who's been around years (he initially ran IPW:UK though doesn't anymore). There were whispers for years that he was into underage girls and it didn't affect him, then last weeks screenshot were released of him, quite overtly, attempting to groom a 16-year old. Almost overnight dozens of wrestlers had publicly said they would no longer work with him and his promotion. Now more stuff is coming out about other promotions and training schools engaging in similar activity, it's beginning to seem so widespread that questions are being asked about who knew what and if there are any protective measures in place for schools like this (it appears not). Here's one really disturbing thread that gives you a sample of what you're dealing with...

https://twitter.com/ExtremeSkarlett/status/951518183361515522

What Elgin or Aziz were alleged to have done weren’t criminal matters, though. It’s not a crime to ignore and potentially cover up sexual abuse, it’s not a crime to misread signals and go too far when you technically have consent for certain actions...these are grey areas. And yet both of these men have traded publicly from being self-proclaimed moral, woke, inclusive individuals. So what do you want the police to do about that? Do you think it’s fair that people can treat others how they want in private then publicly proclaim support for victims? If they do so while carrying on this way behind closed doors, is it not a case of “they had it coming”? We, even among wrestling fans, tend to act this way yet once it gets sexual we start decrying people’s right to privacy.

Or is it more to do with the fact that it’s women complaining about men? When the Paige videos were first leaked, they were shared without a moment’s thought (not on here mind). Even on here, though, people were more than happy to judge and comment on her supposed mental state during the ADR relationship. There’s a megathread about it that’s still active. It seems strange that we act one way towards women’s privacy then get jumpy when discussing men’s, even if the evidence suggests the man was being a scumbag. People are commenting freely about Moses but then, in the same vein, arguing that Michael Elgin shouldn’t be judged.

Well Aziz today admitted her account was factual. I think the line that women will use this to spread misinformation is going to go down with other failed attempts to stop this saga like #NotAllMen, it’s just not being bared out with facts.

As for the method or delivery? I agree there’s room for discussion there. Even with the Aziz story, it’s still not worthy of a blacklisting, more a case of a learning opportunity for men as to what is acceptable and not. So I think a less accusatory and derisive tone for transgressors in milder cases like this would be beneficial in the long run. If you go on the attack, people are going to get defensive. But if you show mercy and forgiveness, people are more likely to show contrition in return.

Having said that, I don’t blame anyone for handling it with anger and vengeance in mind. They’re victims, to get here they’ve already been through so much, it’s not on any of us to judge or comment on how they deal with that.

For what it’s worth, I’m no mod but I think it’s all relevant to the conversation and they’re fair questions to raise.

In the US, because of a spate of student rape cases in colleges, they’re talking about introducing consent classes and doubling down on the fact that “yes means yes”, ie the absence of a no doesn’t give you the greenlight, and that people must give enthusiastic, affirmative consent.

The reason it’s this way is because...well let me tell you a story: I remember I was a nerdy kid who went to the teen discos at the time (Da Wezz was the big spot in Dublin). My record with women was consistent with what you’d expect of a kid who spent all of his weekend watching wrestling. So I went up to a mate who did much better looking for some pro tips. His advice was to just keep asking and hounding them until they said yes. Now I personally didn’t feel comfortable doing this, not that I was some white knight, morally impeccable hero of our time, I just didn’t. So I continued to get wrestling fan numbers. Nor was my mate a creepy predator type: he was a normal dude, really sound and inclusive even to nerdy weird kids like me, and got loads of attention naturally off women. He just didn’t know better and this worked for him.

If you’ve got any single female friends, ask them for a look at their dating profiles sometime. Look through the chats they have with lads trying it on and you’ll realise that my mate’s attitude isn’t uncommon. There’s also a natural power imbalance with men and women, an intimidation factor, based off biology alone. Since...well, forever, women have been called bitches or prudes or lesbians if they didn’t acquiesce to the desires of men. Society and culture didn’t discourage this and in many cases double down. Don’t believe me? Just go on the WWE Network and watch some Attitude Era stuff, how the women that are celebrated are the ones who strip for men’s pleasure. Or cheerleaders in NFL. Or WAGs in football. Society promoted that successful women in particular fields weren’t successful because they were equal to male counterparts, they were the attractive women who were there to please the men who were celebrated for accomplishments based on their talent and ability. You can go along with it and be celebrated, or don’t and be called a bitch or prude who needs to smile more and accept her role in the hierarchy.

That’s why highlighting stuff like this is important. The woman in question consented to certain acts but also felt like she couldn’t speak up and was forced to do things she definitely did not agree to either. I also don’t think Aziz is a bad guy who deserves his reputation dragged through the mud and career ended. He was misguided and ****ed up and it just so happened that it bit him in the arse this time, he’s not a Weinstein or a Spacey, but he did need to learn somehow. And we all do, because even if we’re not guilty, or we have our own problems, or even if this some of this stuff isn’t a crime, it doesn’t make it right and society as a whole is what needs to change here.

That’s perception, and yours is a fair perception to have. You could also view it as a creative way of illustrating the assumptions men make on behalf of woman when the easy option to allow choice is right there. Is it based in fact? There you have to go to whether or not Aziz disputes it, which he doesn’t. That could be a bad PR move on his part, but he’d also have access to much better PR than this (relatively new) website or woman, so that’s on him and, on that basis, I’d be inclined to believe it in the absence of denial. But you’re also perfectly entitled to have your own view too, it’s not black and white and clear cut by any means.