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Opening churches for the homeless?

13

Comments

  • #62
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    More volunteers? The expression, where there's a will there's a way springs to mind. The problem, at root, lies in the will or lack thereof. Given I don't open up my own home (but recall my wife family (when she was a kid) taking in a homeless person for an extended period) I'm not flinging mud here. The lack of ambition of the church referred to earlier, includes me.

    The same lack of ambition applies equally to society in general (myself included). As a society we probably have more suitable vacant properties in our collective ownership than churches, e.g. the likes of Apollo House, yet even these don't meet minimum standards required. To my mind it seems we should be doing what is necessary to bring these properties in public ownership to this standard and putting them to good use. Until this happens, if anyone is kind enough to open their doors as an act of charity in an emergency, you feel they should be exempt from any kind of prosecution for not meeting standards. I don't think it is reasonable to ask more of volunteers as these are the people who are already doing more than the rest of us with regards to the crisis. Slightly off topic, but given the time of year, a gift from the Simon shop makes for a nice present in a consumer mad world.


  • #63
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Perhaps we need a thread on the most ridiculous re-purposing of churches we can think of. How about as a school, or a hospital. Social housing, net cafes with fast broadband. Centers of Excellence. The list is endless.


  • #64
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    smacl wrote: »
    ....Slightly off topic, but given the time of year, a gift from the Simon shop makes for a nice present in a consumer mad world.

    Probably the most on topic post of this thread.


  • #65
    Tenigate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Tenigate


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    Seemingly a manger was deemed fit for one homeless family.

    If you're talking about the family I think you are, then they weren't homeless. They travelled from Nazareth to Bethlehem for the census. I guess bureaucratic governments really do make situations worse.


  • #66
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,461 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    Can you really see the authorities evicting the homeless from a church (of all places) because building codes are being transgressed. Although seemingly not attracting the greatest of minds in the main, politics isn't that stupid.
    You think if people get accommodated in conditions not fit for human habitation, that's only a problem if they get evicted?

    The point has already been made that the Catholic church is already doing much more effective things to provide for the homeless, and on quite a large scale. You're proposing that resources be reallocated in a less effective way. Can you seriousl not see why people think this is a bad idea?
    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    You are more likely to see the church being fined after the fact and free legal aid provided to the homeless persons to sue to the church.
    Hmm. I don't think you're that well up on the details and scope of the free legal aid scheme, to be honest.


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  • #67
    Nick Park
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    Since so many people on this thread are obviously interested in how much the Catholic Church does, or doesn't, do for the homeless - then perhaps some posters might also want to do something practical (like digging into their pockets)?

    As a young man I was homeless for 3 years, including many nights sleeping on the street. 37 years later, I'm going to sleep one more night on the streets as part of Drogheda Homeless Aid's annual sleep-out fundraiser. Rather topically, Drogheda Homeless Aid was founded by a Catholic nun.

    It is on 9 December - which is a little bit awkward as it is a Saturday night. So, when the sponsored sleep-out ends on Sunday morning, I'll be rolling my sleeping bag under my arm, walking across Drogheda to our church building, and carrying it into the pulpit, ready to preach at our first service of the day at 10am.

    The iDonate page is here: https://www.idonate.ie/fundraiser/11367236_nick-park-sleeping-rough-for-drogheda-homeless-aid.html


  • #68
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    You think if people get accommodated in conditions not fit for human habitation, that's only a problem if they get evicted?

    I'm supposing a church a tad more fit for human habitation than the street. Our Lords mother and father seem to concur with this point of view.
    The point has already been made that the Catholic church is already doing much more effective things to provide for the homeless, and on quite a large scale. You're proposing that resources be reallocated in a less effective way. Can you seriousl not see why people think this is a bad idea?

    What I am supposing is that we have something here, right under our noses, which has a pretty immediate solution. It might be that there are better ways to eradicate the problem than putting people up in churches but the fact is the problem isn't being eradicated.

    The church (in totality) has the manpower and finances to resolve this particular problem overnight, were it that the will were there to do so. The fact that it isn't eradicated overnight points to a fundamental lack in the church (in totality).

    We are a relatively wealthy nation and the number of homeless, relatively few. The problem, manifest in the existence of homelessness (or the homeless forced to reside in appalling conditions when a roof provided over their head) lies in the will of the church then. By "church", I mean the sum total of the building blocks that makes it up: not just the comparatively few individuals who attempt to improve things).

    Arguments about how much is being done will stick in the throat come the measure against what more could have, so easily been done.

    Simple question: what do you think Christ would make of the action of his church (in totality) given the relatively puny scale of this particular problem


  • #69
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Tenigate wrote: »
    If you're talking about the family I think you are, then they weren't homeless. They travelled from Nazareth to Bethlehem for the census. I guess bureaucratic governments really do make situations worse.

    Call it short term homelessness then


  • #70
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    I'm supposing a church a tad more fit for human habitation than the street. ....

    What I am supposing is that we have something here, right under our noses, which has a pretty immediate solution. ...

    You don't need to suppose and be wrong.

    You could just listen to the people with years of experience and actually learn what the problems are.

    But no one can do that with a closed mind.


  • #71
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,461 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    I'm supposing a church a tad more fit for human habitation than the street. Our Lords mother and father seem to concur with this point of view.
    But you seem preoccupied with finding the least suitable accommodation and providing it to the homeless.

    And, though I'm sure it's not your intention, it's that attitude that I think is fuelling the suspicion voiced here that this demand has more to do with bashing the church than with benefitting the homeless. Perhaps the CAtholic church could do more, and by all means make that case if you want to, but the notion that the "more" would consists of opening churches as temporary shelters makes no sense at all. The human and financial resources that would be required to do that could be deployed in far more effective ways.


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  • #72
    beefburrito
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭beefburrito


    Churches shouldn't care about insurance or who they let into the premises.

    Open up the doors,fill the oil tank with oil,turn up the heating and look after the homeless.

    God will be pleased with ye,he loves sinner's.

    There's a bottom less pit of money in the church,who cares about insurance,that's man made.

    God doesn't care about insurance.

    Open up the churches for the homeless,why not....

    It's the Christian thing to do.....


  • #73
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Nick Park wrote: »
    perhaps some posters might also want to do something practical (like digging into their pockets)?

    Or passing their refunds from Irish Water onto the homeless; https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/appeal-for-water-refunds-to-go-to-homeless-1.3278225 Sometimes money that has yet to enter your pocket is that bit easier to pass on. Seems like a small enough thing to ask, I note two more homeless people died on the street this week.


  • #74
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Why don't the govt hand out artic sleeping bags and tents.

    Surprised there hasn't been a church caused bexit and Korea nuclear weapons thread yet. Seems like anything goes.


  • #75
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    beefburrito wrote: »
    Churches shouldn't care about insurance or who they let into the premises.

    Open up the doors,fill the oil tank with oil,turn up the heating and look after the homeless.

    God will be pleased with ye,he loves sinner's.

    There's a bottom less pit of money in the church,who cares about insurance,that's man made.

    God doesn't care about insurance.

    Open up the churches for the homeless,why not....

    It's the Christian thing to do.....

    I don't think churches would be a particularly useful solution though, even if they were made available, they could be heated, insurance waived, toilet facilities and bedding provided. From what I've been reading, many homeless people are afraid to use dormitory style accommodation even when it is available as they're in serious danger from other occupants. This story from the indo is worth a read and illustrates this.


  • #76
    Nick Park
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    smacl wrote: »
    Or passing their refunds from Irish Water onto the homeless; https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/appeal-for-water-refunds-to-go-to-homeless-1.3278225 Sometimes money that has yet to enter your pocket is that bit easier to pass on. Seems like a small enough thing to ask, I note two more homeless people died on the street this week.

    Yes, I think donating the water charge refunds to help the homeless is an excellent idea. We gave this scheme a plug recently at the Evangelical Alliance Ireland National Forum when Peter McVerry was with us.

    The website for those wanting to donate their water refunds is https://refundproject.ie


  • #77
    by8auj6csd3ioq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭by8auj6csd3ioq


    The church have the resources to buy houses for all the homeless. They have vast wealth.


  • #78
    Tenigate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Tenigate


    Noah Helpful Dollhouse wrote: »
    The church have the resources to buy houses for all the homeless. They have vast wealth.

    This again?


  • #79
    wally79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,947 ✭✭✭wally79


    Noah Helpful Dollhouse wrote: »
    The church have the resources to buy houses for all the homeless. They have vast wealth.

    So do Apple and Google


  • #80
    by8auj6csd3ioq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭by8auj6csd3ioq


    Apple Google or any other mega rich company do not claim to be spiritual leaders or Gods reps on earth as the church do. They do not claim money is evil as religion has. Look at the obscene wealth in the vatican

    Apple Google etc are capitalist businesses


  • #81
    wally79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,947 ✭✭✭wally79


    Noah Helpful Dollhouse wrote: »
    Apple Google or any other mega rich company do not claim to be spiritual leaders or Gods reps on earth as the church do. They do not claim money is evil as religion has. Look at the obscene wealth in the vatican

    Apple Google etc are capitalist businesses

    The Church operates more than 140,000 schools, 10,000 orphanages, 5,000 hospitals and some 16,000 other health clinics. Caritas, the umbrella organisation for Catholic aid agencies, estimates that spending by its affiliates totals between £2 billion and £4 billion, making it one of the biggest aid agencies in the world.

    Even these numbers only tell half the tale. Caritas does not include development spending by a host of religious orders and other Catholic charities, while most of the 200,000 Catholic parishes around the world operate their own small-scale charitable projects which are never picked up in official figures. Establishing like-for-like comparisons is hard, but there can be little doubt that in pretty much every field of social action, from education to health to social care, the Church is the largest and most significant non-state organisation in the world.


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  • #82
    by8auj6csd3ioq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭by8auj6csd3ioq


    The Church operates more than 140,000 schools, 10,000 orphanages, 5,000 hospitals and some 16,000 other health clinics. Caritas, the umbrella organisation for Catholic aid agencies, estimates that spending by its affiliates totals between £2 billion and £4 billion, making it one of the biggest aid agencies in the world.

    Even these numbers only tell half the tale. Caritas does not include development spending by a host of religious orders and other Catholic charities, while most of the 200,000 Catholic parishes around the world operate their own small-scale charitable projects which are never picked up in official figures. Establishing like-for-like comparisons is hard, but there can be little doubt that in pretty much every field of social action, from education to health to social care, the Church is the largest and most significant non-state organisation in the world.
    you could multiply that 50 times over and it would not dent the churches wealth. What do they want all the wealth for if they are spiritual?


  • #83
    wally79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,947 ✭✭✭wally79


    Noah Helpful Dollhouse wrote: »
    you could multiply that 50 times over and it would not dent the churches wealth. What do they want all the wealth for if they are spiritual?

    To continue helping where no one else does


  • #84
    by8auj6csd3ioq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭by8auj6csd3ioq


    "To continue helping where no one else does" Must be sad to try to explain their wealth and lack of action. They do not spend 1% of their vast wealth.What do they want it for

    https://www.thestreet.com/story/13295788/1/how-rich-is-the-catholic-church-it-s-impossible-to-tell.html

    And they could hire security to look after homeless people in churches.


  • #85
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    They are closing churches because no one wants to go into them, and you want to build more as homeless shelters.

    You should go on dragons den with that one...


  • #86
    by8auj6csd3ioq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭by8auj6csd3ioq


    They are closing churches because no one wants to go into them, and you want to build more as homeless shelters. " who said they wanted to build more? I meant they have resources to buy homes and understood the op meant existing churches

    dragons den is just trying to make fun to evade the argument but if someone did go to dd the church could fund them


  • #87
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    You want the church to close its homeless shelters and become a commercial developer, buy property from nama and build high end housing just like the existing developers that successive govt have encouraged.

    Perfect for dragons den...

    Much better than creating a security business from retiring clergy.. You'll never get a dragon with that...


  • #88
    by8auj6csd3ioq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭by8auj6csd3ioq


    all you can do is make fun as you know the church is dripping with wealth


  • #89
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    So your interest is the churches money not the homeless. Maybe you ask them to be an Angel investor in these business ideas you have.

    Though I expect explaining why in a city with an existing problem of unsuitable housing you want to provide more housing that's even less suitable would be priceless...


  • #90
    AnneFrank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭AnneFrank


    FutureGuy wrote: »
    Will put it out in the open. I'm an atheist but I would like to understand something.

    There's a mosque in Dublin opening its doors to the homeless during the upcoming cold snap. This is sure to save lives.

    Why isn't the Catholic Church doing the same with its churches? These people are at risk of dying and yet the church does nothing. It's not for want of space or money so why not? Why aren't mass-goers asking their local priest the question?
    It would save alot of our national resources if they did die


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  • #91
    by8auj6csd3ioq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭by8auj6csd3ioq


    sad when people have to make strawman arguments


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