Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread II

Samaris · 07-12-2017 09:15AM

This is an absolute mess. Lobbing a grenade into Israel/Palastine is the act of a complete moron.

He really will do anything to distract from the investigation.

Billy86 · 07-12-2017 10:27AM

Meanwhile as Trump is doing all he can to get others to look elsewhere (with the beauty of a caveat that this is going to wind up with additional terrorist attacks on US soil, that he will probably try to use to provoke war for an approval/midterms boost), it also appears that he knew a lot more about the meeting with the Russian Lawyer in Trump Tower than is being let on.

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/363646-trump-jr-interviews-with-house-intel-panel

Donald Trump Jr. on Wednesday declined to tell the House Intelligence Committee details about his conversation with President Trump regarding his meeting with a Russian lawyer, citing client privilege, according to the committee's top Democrat.

Rep. Adam Schiff (D-Calif.) is challenging Trump Jr.'s reasoning, saying Trump Jr. cannot apply attorney-client privilege and "shield" lawmakers from his conversation between father and son just because an attorney was present in the room at the time.

"He acknowledged having discussed the June 9 meeting and the emails that went into establishing that meeting after those emails became public," Schiff said Wednesday following a closed-door meeting with Trump Jr.

"He acknowledged discussing that matter with his father, but refused to answer questions about that discussion along the basis of a attorney-client privilege. In my view there is no attorney-client privilege that protects a discussion between father and son," Schiff continued.

Billy86 · 07-12-2017 10:30AM

Madagascan wrote: »

And so has any one who has read the Koran.

Which pages, specifically?

Billy86 · 07-12-2017 10:50AM

JenovaProject wrote: »

All Trumps support is an end time death cult?
Yeh half of America,not hyperbole at all.

If you want an example closer to home just look at how eager they are to see their health care taken away from them, and their voting for a party that has done nothing in recent years but talk about how they'll take that health care away, which many of them due to health issues and financial status need to survive. That alone sounds quite like a suicide cult.

As for internationally, a warlord is what they couldn't be quick enough to label Trump's opponent in the election - now we see Trump eagerly pushing for war for the second time in about six months (the other being North Korea) - and somehow his followers have gone from screaming about isolationism to cheerleading this, and cheerleading in North Korea, and cheerleading the Syrian airport attack, and cheerleading dropping the biggest non-nuclear bomb in world history in Afghanistan, and happily going out of their way to ignore the massive increase in drone strikes (which was a huge hang up for so many of them only 12 months ago).

Wes pointed out the Roy Moore issue, which does show the Republican party is merely a cult as they carry on loyally voting for a kiddie fiddler on the basis that there is an (R) beside his name. I've been saying it for months and have no doubts it came across as hyperbolic, but when you've got people living in a safe little bubble/loop of information, treating everything outside that bubble as 'the enemy' before hearing what they have to say, in open opposition to critical thinking (which Republican politicians have been openly fighting against being in the education system, resulting in the majority of Republican now viewing third level education as a bad thing), taking party over family, religion and just about all else not ending with an (R)... you're dealing with a cult.

Now that cult seems to happily be supporting wars and goading wars the world over - a death cult is defined as 'A fringe religious group that glorifies or is obsessed with death' - we've got the fringe religious group in the modern Republican party, I wouldn't go so far as to say they're glorifying death just yet (though there are some, even on boards, who happily declare 'nuke the middle east off the map'), but when this escalates as it almost surely will, I can confidently say I won't bat an eyebrow as the focus changes.

So basically right now they are merely a suicide cult (not all, but a huge swathe of Republican voters), but they've show a bit of a lust for war when Trump was flirting with it earlier in the year, and I wholeheartedly expect that to change very, very soon off the aftermath of this.

demfad · 07-12-2017 11:40AM

There are two aspects to this decision: Why? Why now?

People need to understand the depth of influence of the Christian Statist Council For National policy to understand why this decision is taking place. This is one of their policies and it was undoubtedly promised by Trump when he met them with Bannon during the election.

Trump has an array of these policies that need implementing. His method is to implement/reinforce policies at a time that distracts from a damaging story.
An outrageous remark usually distracts from a small story. He reignighted the NFL stuff to successfully distract from Niger.
The Jerusalem card was in reserve for when a really big distraction was needed. That was the story that Mike Flynn was found guilty and now cooperating with Mueller.

People think that Trump is thick and that therefore he cant be fooling everyone. He has being lying/deceiving all his life. He is good at it now.
You don't have to be smarter than someone to manipulate them (the media in this case) You just have to get them to misjudge/underestimate you. Then they might as well be stupider.

The Jerusalem card plays into a more sinister direction that Bannon has been open about: That of a big war between (Judo)Christianity and Islam.
Bannon (and his backers Mercers/Putin) are using Trump as a blunt instrument: Directing him broadly and letting him wreck ball all around.
CNP long for this war: the rapture, the second coming of Christ, true peace in the end of times.
I kid you not!

Leroy42 · 07-12-2017 12:13PM

Good piece in the NYT today. Bascially setting out that the US has given away one of the big hold outs it had over Israel for nothing. And it ties back into the question I asked yesterday. What is the positive in this for the US? I don't see it. I can see how Trumps base is happy, how Israel is happy and that some other countries might not be bothered either way. But what is positive about this to the US?

What has Trump, the great deal maker, actually got in return for what is, in reality, a very big gift from the US to Israel?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/06/opinion/trump-foreign-policy-giveaway.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region&region=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region

Today, Trump just gave it away — for free. Such a deal! Why in the world would you just give this away for free and not even use it as a lever to advance the prospect of an Israeli-Palestinian deal?

Trump could have said two things to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. First, he could have said: “Bibi, you keep asking me to declare Jerusalem as Israel’s capital. O.K., I will do that. But I want a deal. Here’s what I want from you in return: You will declare an end to all Israeli settlement building in the West Bank, outside of the existing settlement block that everyone expects to be part of Israel in any two-state solution.”

Professor Moriarty · 07-12-2017 12:18PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Good piece in the NYT today. Bascially setting out that the US has given away one of the big hold outs it had over Israel for nothing. And it ties back into the question I asked yesterday. What is the positive in this for the US? I don't see it. I can see how Trumps base is happy, how Israel is happy and that some other countries might not be bothered either way. But what is positive about this to the US?

What has Trump, the great deal maker, actually got in return for what is, in reality, a very big gift from the US to Israel?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/06/opinion/trump-foreign-policy-giveaway.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region&region=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region

It's a continuance of what got him elected - polarisation. Demonise sections of society/humanity and portray yourself as the saviour. In this case, he's a crusader (literally) for the Bible Belt. Crude but effective. Just confirms how stupid and gullible some people are.

Leroy42 · 07-12-2017 12:22PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It's a continuance of what got him elected - polarisation. Demonise sections of society/humanity and portray yourself as the saviour. In this case, he's a crusader (literally) for the Bible Belt. Crude but effective. Just confirms how stupid and gullible some people are.

Yes, I understand why HE did it, but surely POTUS is supposed to serve the interests of the US. Nobody, here, in the papers, on Fox news, has been able to explain, to me anyway, what is the positives for the US from this.

"Its simply reality" seems to be the line. And? Why now? And why did the US not get something in return? This a a major win for Israel, this is priceless going forward and yet it seems Trump has just given it away for nothing. Not only that but it will come at a cost to the US both in terms of the money (irrelevant in the scheme of things) but also in terms of standing.

Water John · 07-12-2017 12:24PM

The question always is, not what is good for America but what is good for Trump?

That will tell you why, he is doing something.

Professor Moriarty · 07-12-2017 12:31PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Yes, I understand why HE did it, but surely POTUS is supposed to serve the interests of the US. Nobody, here, in the papers, on Fox news, has been able to explain, to me anyway, what is the positives for the US from this.

"Its simply reality" seems to be the line. And? Why now? And why did the US not get something in return? This a a major win for Israel, this is priceless going forward and yet it seems Trump has just given it away for nothing. Not only that but it will come at a cost to the US both in terms of the money (irrelevant in the scheme of things) but also in terms of standing.

He's just doubling down on his disregard for other countries. Look at his attitude to NATO, the UN, NAFTA, Global Warming etc. He doesn't give a crap and he doesn't give a crap about the office of POTUS. Trump is just being Trump and this is just another Trump brainfart to please a section of his electorate. There's an old country saying: What would you expect from a pig but a grunt?

TommyKnocker · 07-12-2017 12:42PM

Madagascan wrote: »

It is and has been the Jewish capital for 3, 000 years.

Absolutely impossible as the "Jewish State" is only 69 years old. It was self proclaimed in 1948 through terrorism & ethnic cleansing which has continued to this day. Pretty similar to how Daesh went about creating their caliphate.

PopePalpatine · 07-12-2017 01:06PM

Water John wrote: »

The question always is, not what is good for America but what is good for Trump?

That will tell you why, he is doing something.

I wouldn't be surprised if he's planning on opening a new hotel in Israel.

circadian · 07-12-2017 01:22PM

Pretty shocking stuff relating to Flynn if true https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/whistleblower-flynn-told-ex-partner-russia-sanctions-would-be-ripped-n827031

If this is legitimate, and Trump was aware of it, then we're going down a pretty crazy path.

Mr.Micro · 07-12-2017 01:27PM

Yet another move to destabilise the world. It's like a bad dream. The Americans have vested too much power in the position of President. When logic, goodwill, decency, diplomacy etc prevail, then things are ok, but when the likes of Trump is in office, with none of the above, then we see the consequences of too much power. Pure evil IMO.

Zascar · 07-12-2017 01:31PM

circadian wrote: »

Pretty shocking stuff relating to Flynn if true https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/whistleblower-flynn-told-ex-partner-russia-sanctions-would-be-ripped-n827031

If True? I think we are know it's true - and this is only the tip of the iceberg. http://www.newsweek.com/mike-flynns-secret-messages-show-trump-colluded-russia-experts-740246
I mean they have the text messages he sent durin the inauguration ffs and a photo of him texting. People who have been denying any Russia connections and saying it's all fake news have their head buried in the sand.

John Oliver is right when he calls this "Stupid Watergate"

Leroy42 · 07-12-2017 01:32PM

I think we entered onto the crazy path a long time ago!

The more that comes out about Flynn the more one must consider one of two possibilities.

1) Flynn was able to secure a plea deal before Mueller got wind of any of this stuff and as such Mueller has been played by only getting Flynn on a very small charge (relatively speaking) and allowed his son to walk free

2) Mueller knew about this stuff and gave Flynn the deal due to Flynn being able to offer Mueller something worth the cost of allowing Flynn away with so much.

Now I have never been involved in he US justice system, so can only base my view on what I have read and seen on news and tv shows, but my understanding is that prosecutors are not really concerned about the welfare of the person they are charging. It is not their problem whether that person 'suffers' or not. Plea deals are not based on whether they feel bad for the person or not. They are based on what they think they can prove in court and whether they can get something bigger by giving up something. Hence the term deal.

Tony EH · 07-12-2017 01:35PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if he's planning on opening a new hotel in Israel.

Maybe he's looking for a country to emigrate to when he leaves office (or is impeached) and the possible proverbial hits the fan.

swampgas · 07-12-2017 01:40PM

Tony EH wrote: »

Maybe he's looking for a country to emigrate to when he leaves office (or is impeached) and the possible proverbial hits the fan.

You may have posted this in jest, but it's a theory I've seen coming from a number of sources!

Tony EH · 07-12-2017 01:44PM

My tongue is only half in my cheek.

Water John · 07-12-2017 01:49PM

Could be called, hedging his bets.

Is Flynn's deal covering only a small area or all the infringements that he could be charged with?

Zascar · 07-12-2017 01:53PM

They often just pin him down on one he cannot possibly deny, to give them more time to work on the other charges...

Tell me how · 07-12-2017 01:58PM

I wonder what efforts are going on to speak with Mueller outside of all this.

He is a Republican himself. I can't imagine that there aren't people trying to influence his behaviour if not outright asking him to stop completely. Is he that honorable that he is going to pursue this to the nth degree?

I would not be surprised if the republican party itself want to see this go so far as ensuring Trump cannot run again in 4 years but after that they will want to shut it down pretty sharpish.

Water John · 07-12-2017 02:02PM

I think, ANY communication with Mueller,would be a NO No in the American Justice system. There wouldn't be any back channels.
Remember when Comey was appointed O'Bama said to him, 'you won't be talking to me again' or words to that effect.

Maybe I'm niave, but that's my reading, of it.

seamus · 07-12-2017 02:18PM

Water John wrote: »

I think, ANY communication with Mueller,would be a NO No in the American Justice system. There wouldn't be any back channels.
Remember when Comey was appointed O'Bama said to him, 'you won't be talking to me again' or words to that effect.

Maybe I'm niave, but that's my reading, of it.

I think at one stage many of us would have thought like that. The U.S. has played an excellent propaganda game for decades about the supremacy of its institutions.

But after what's come out since Snowden broke ranks and exposed the corruption and institutional paranoia in the U.S., and the subsequent nonsense in the years that have followed, I think it's to be assumed that there are backchannels, everywhere, between everyone, unless there is solid evidence to the contrary.

Tell me how · 07-12-2017 02:29PM

Water John wrote: »

I think, ANY communication with Mueller,would be a NO No in the American Justice system. There wouldn't be any back channels.
Remember when Comey was appointed O'Bama said to him, 'you won't be talking to me again' or words to that effect.

Maybe I'm niave, but that's my reading, of it.

Trump invited Comey to dinner and made overtures at him.

Unfortunately, I think it would be very naive to believe that there wouldn't normally be any back channel conversations within the american justice system. I do believe Obama was an outlier in many respects, his adherence of this being another one.

On that subject, there probably isn't that much to admire about that system. It's very much linked to the size of the bank account of the accused, as well as other parameters.

C14N · 07-12-2017 02:32PM

demfad wrote: »

His method is to implement/reinforce policies at a time that distracts from a damaging story.
An outrageous remark usually distracts from a small story. He reignighted the NFL stuff to successfully distract from Niger.
The Jerusalem card was in reserve for when a really big distraction was needed. That was the story that Mike Flynn was found guilty and now cooperating with Mueller.

People think that Trump is thick and that therefore he cant be fooling everyone. He has being lying/deceiving all his life. He is good at it now.
You don't have to be smarter than someone to manipulate them (the media in this case) You just have to get them to misjudge/underestimate you. Then they might as well be stupider.

I don't buy that theory. There's a damaging story about Trump every week, and Trump seems as easily distracted as any other cable-news viewer. He's just constantly being the same self he was before he got elected (his Twitter account was always like this, it's just that hardly anyone used to care about his self-aggrandisement and fight-picking). Distracting from the Flynn story isn't even going to make much difference. All that's reported so far is speculation, the actual story is still to come.

Damaging stories and Trump starting petty squabbles or doing something ridiculous are just both always happening all the time.

Tell me how wrote: »

I wonder what efforts are going on to speak with Mueller outside of all this.

He is a Republican himself. I can't imagine that there aren't people trying to influence his behaviour if not outright asking him to stop completely. Is he that honorable that he is going to pursue this to the nth degree?

I would not be surprised if the republican party itself want to see this go so far as ensuring Trump cannot run again in 4 years but after that they will want to shut it down pretty sharpish.

He's a Republican, but I don't see him as being much of a Trump-supporter, because he isn't a moron. It already seems to be pretty established that most of the Republican grown-ups in Washington are sick of Trump behind closed doors, so it's hard to imagine they're pressuring him privately to not look into it too much. Also, we do know that the investigative team is pretty bi-partisan, so I'd expect the Democratic members to squawk if it was being hampered in some way.

Mr.Micro · 07-12-2017 02:34PM

seamus wrote: »

I think at one stage many of us would have thought like that. The U.S. has played an excellent propaganda game for decades about the supremacy of its institutions.

But after what's come out since Snowden broke ranks and exposed the corruption and institutional paranoia in the U.S., and the subsequent nonsense in the years that have followed, I think it's to be assumed that there are backchannels, everywhere, between everyone, unless there is solid evidence to the contrary.

By the time anything comes of Muellers investigations, if even, Trump will have done even more damage in the world. It's all chatter and background noise to Trump and Co. The show must go on.

demfad · 07-12-2017 02:52PM

The only other country to recognise Jerusalem?
Russia...

In April, Russian President Vladimir Putin recognized “West Jerusalem” as the capital (by contrast Trump referred to "Jerusalem" as a unified city). But as of yet there are no signs of Moscow moving its embassy to the city.

Netanyahu increasingly looking like he is in with Putin and Trump. This will help the corruption allegations closing in on him.

Plenty of money being made just out of sight here no doubt.

recedite · 07-12-2017 03:02PM

TommyKnocker wrote: »

Absolutely impossible as the "Jewish State" is only 69 years old.

One of the oldest cities in the world, Jerusalem was named as "Urusalima" on ancient Mesopotamian cuneiform tablets, probably meaning "City of Shalem" after a Canaanite deity, during the early Canaanite period (approximately 2400 BCE). During the Israelite period, significant construction activity in Jerusalem began in the 9th century BCE (Iron Age II), and in the 8th century the city developed into the religious and administrative center of the Kingdom of Judah.[7] During its long history, Jerusalem has been destroyed at least twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem

Tell me how · 07-12-2017 03:07PM

recedite wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem

You're quoting Wikipedia?

You do realise that that is way down the rung of reputable sources given anyone worldwide can edit it.

Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread II

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