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DCM 2017 Graduates: Onwards and upwards!

13567…27

Comments

  • #62
    skyblue46
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,805 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    Sub 40.....Holy Sh1t !!! I love it.


  • #63
    Swashbuckler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,583 ✭✭✭Swashbuckler


    El Caballo wrote:
    As I said, opinion varies hugely on this so I am speaking from a position of bias on this and what feels best for me personally. Maybe dial back the top end pace a bit and see how you feel. I don't think you are going way too fast by any means so expermint and see.

    Just to add to El C's excellent response McMillian estimates my easy pace as 6.55 to 7.54 minutes per mile. I was typically running somewhere in the middle of this range up to recently. Since I started getting some coaching my easy run pace is now prescribed as 7.58 to 8.25 minutes per mile. I've noticed a massive difference since running the easy runs actually easy. I have more energy and feel fresher for the sessions during the week. So like El C said its worth erring on the cautious side. Priority is to be relatively fresh for the sessions. If you're going too fast on the easy days then the key sessions will suffer.


  • #64
    skyblue46
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,805 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    Swashbuckler wrote: »
    Just to add to El C's excellent response McMillian estimates my easy pace as 6.55 to 7.54 minutes per mile. I was typically running somewhere in the middle of this range up to recently. Since I started getting some coaching my easy run pace is now prescribed as 7.58 to 8.25 minutes per mile. I've noticed a massive difference since running the easy runs actually easy. I have more energy and feel fresher for the sessions during the week. So like El C said its worth erring on the cautious side. Priority is to be relatively fresh for the sessions. If you're going too fast on the easy days then the key sessions will suffer.

    Thanks. I did a little run tonight at the plan easy paces and the penny dropped. I had always kinda figured if it wasn't difficult that it was easy but tonight was proper easy.


  • #65
    Kellygirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,022 ✭✭✭Kellygirl


    Good to see more of the group joining here! Good questions earlier Sean and enjoyed reading El C’s answers. I must look at that plan. I still haven’t studied the training plans. Having said that, I love going running with others as my break in the evenings so enjoying that for the moment.

    Passed the 1500km mark this evening!


  • #66
    skyblue46
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,805 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    Kellygirl wrote: »
    Good to see more of the group joining here! Good questions earlier Sean and enjoyed reading El C’s answers. I must look at that plan. I still haven’t studied the training plans. Having said that, I love going running with others as my break in the evenings so enjoying that for the moment.

    Passed the 1500km mark this evening!

    Well done on that! The 1,000 miles is nearly there. I get you about running with people. I've only ever really run alone and with my 2nd wife to be :pac: I have to admit the miles flew by when running with the novices pre DCM and the morning I met Browneyes and Lazare. I'm nerdy though and do love times, splits, plans, running without headphones!


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  • #67
    ariana`
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭ariana`


    Great posts from El Caballo on Easy Paces & supported by Swashbuckler. Can i ask a question. What are junk miles? Or is there such a thing? My limited understanding is that all runs should have a purpose otherwise they are junk. But personally i haven't bothered with a pace calculator yet, i need to do a park run or race to get a recent race time first and i'm just enjoying running with friends again, running mostly at a chatting pace which can vary day to day, i call these easy miles but maybe they are junk miles :confused:

    Where can one get the graduate plans that i hear mentioned? Sorry if this has been answered already :o


  • #68
    ariana`
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭ariana`


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    Well done on that! The 1,000 miles is nearly there. I get you about running with people. I've only ever really run alone and with my 2nd wife to be :pac: I have to admit the miles flew by when running with the novices pre DCM and the morning I met Browneyes and Lazare. I'm nerdy though and do love times, splits, plans, running without headphones!

    Hmmm, is this a recent bit of news by any chance??


  • #69
    Annie get your Run
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,822 ✭✭✭Annie get your Run


    ariana` wrote: »

    Where can one get the graduate plans that i hear mentioned? Sorry if this has been answered already :o

    The link is in the first post of this thread, I can't link again on my phone

    edit first post here


  • #70
    Testosterscone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Testosterscone


    ariana` wrote: »
    Great posts from El Caballo on Easy Paces & supported by Swashbuckler. Can i ask a question. What are junk miles? Or is there such a thing? My limited understanding is that all runs should have a purpose otherwise they are junk. But personally i haven't bothered with a pace calculator yet, i need to do a park run or race to get a recent race time first and i'm just enjoying running with friends again, running mostly at a chatting pace which can vary day to day, i call these easy miles but maybe they are junk miles :confused:

    Where can one get the graduate plans that i hear mentioned? Sorry if this has been answered already :o

    You are spot on regarding junk miles.

    Junk miles for me (some other coaches would say there is a thing as too slow) are the grey area between fast and slow where most people fall. They aren't fast enough for a session but not slow enough to leave you prepped for workouts.

    Best advice I can give is learn how to read your body. The best and most athletes tend to have following characteristics

    - look after their lifestyles outside of training (make sure to get enough sleep, look after diet and heed the niggles)
    - they become in tune with body and adjust effort based on the feedback
    - have the confidence to back off training when needed but are honest enough with themselves to know the difference between warning signs and jut laziness

    The calculator provided is a decent range to work from for most realitively new runners. The easy effort make a runner able to focus more on running efficiently rather than trying to manage the pace. Many coaches that feel that running too slow will make you inefficient but to be honest I think this is more down to the fact that pace whether too fast/too slow is the focus and they change there stride to an inefficient. A runner can be as smooth at 9 minutes as they are at 5 minutes

    Most Irish Road Runners (and Road Runners in general) have bad form this is a fact and it's because the pace is the focus and not about how they run, similar to running intervals, the split becomes all important. There are many athletes who focus on getting from A to B in as quick a time in training but ignore trying to run smoothly and as such they are not really getting true benefits of the run.

    Most of us have the aerobic capacity to run a lot quicker than we actually do simply because we have to be fitter to overcome our bad mechanics (a bit like building a big engine in a car and then putting it in square wheels)

    This is one of the big points that the like of Hal Higdon and Couch to 5k miss the boat on


  • #71
    Swashbuckler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,583 ✭✭✭Swashbuckler


    AuldManKing wrote:
    " .....................This has been shown to occur somewhere around AT (marathon pace) to LT. So Let's say your AT is at 5:20 pace. If you run at 5:35 pace all your doing is recruiting ST fibers and getting adaptations because the intensity isn't high enough to recruit FT fibers. So you might as well be training at 6:30 pace, because full ST fiber recruitment will be taking place there too. If the goal is to train FT fiber oxidative abilities then go run an LT session. If it's not, then don't run at a high intensity that's doing little benefit as a slower more comfortable run could do.

    ariana` wrote:
    Great posts from El Caballo on Easy Paces & supported by Swashbuckler. Can i ask a question. What are junk miles? Or is there such a thing? My limited understanding is that all runs should have a purpose otherwise they are junk. But personally i haven't bothered with a pace calculator yet, i need to do a park run or race to get a recent race time first and i'm just enjoying running with friends again, running mostly at a chatting pace which can vary day to day, i call these easy miles but maybe they are junk miles

    It's interesting you ask as AuldManKing just posted this in RayCuns training long. It sums it up nicely I think. Basically easy runs serve a purpose and running them harder defeats that purpose. There's no real benefit to running easy runs faster as you will end up with less energy for your sessions.

    In saying that, if you're just running away to enjoy your running without a particular plan or target in mind then I'm not sure these points are valid. But when it comes to proper blocks of training with with goals in mind then they certainly apply.


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  • #72
    skyblue46
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,805 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    ariana` wrote: »
    Hmmm, is this a recent bit of news by any chance??

    Haha, no it's just to vary things from using OH and SO! :pac:


  • #73
    ariana`
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭ariana`


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    Haha, no it's just to vary things from using OH and SO! :pac:

    Lol you're a character, you're 2nd wife to be is a lucky lady :p


  • #74
    ariana`
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭ariana`


    Testosterscone wrote: »
    You are spot on regarding junk miles.

    Junk miles for me (some other coaches would say there is a thing as too slow) are the grey area between fast and slow where most people fall. They aren't fast enough for a session but not slow enough to leave you prepped for workouts.

    Best advice I can give is learn how to read your body. The best and most athletes tend to have following characteristics

    - look after their lifestyles outside of training (make sure to get enough sleep, look after diet and heed the niggles)
    - they become in tune with body and adjust effort based on the feedback
    - have the confidence to back off training when needed but are honest enough with themselves to know the difference between warning signs and jut laziness

    The calculator provided is a decent range to work from for most realitively new runners. The easy effort make a runner able to focus more on running efficiently rather than trying to manage the pace. Many coaches that feel that running too slow will make you inefficient but to be honest I think this is more down to the fact that pace whether too fast/too slow is the focus and they change there stride to an inefficient. A runner can be as smooth at 9 minutes as they are at 5 minutes

    Most Irish Road Runners (and Road Runners in general) have bad form this is a fact and it's because the pace is the focus and not about how they run, similar to running intervals, the split becomes all important. There are many athletes who focus on getting from A to B in as quick a time in training but ignore trying to run smoothly and as such they are not really getting true benefits of the run.

    Most of us have the aerobic capacity to run a lot quicker than we actually do simply because we have to be fitter to overcome our bad mechanics (a bit like building a big engine in a car and then putting it in square wheels)

    This is one of the big points that the like of Hal Higdon and Couch to 5k miss the boat on
    Swashbuckler wrote: »
    It's interesting you ask as AuldManKing just posted this in RayCuns training long. It sums it up nicely I think. Basically easy runs serve a purpose and running them harder defeats that purpose. There's no real benefit to running easy runs faster as you will end up with less energy for your sessions.

    In saying that, if you're just running away to enjoy your running without a particular plan or target in mind then I'm not sure these points are valid. But when it comes to proper blocks of training with with goals in mind then they certainly apply.

    Thanks. Great explanations there. And it goes back to what was honed into us training for DCM, keep the easy runs easy.

    I had a look at the graduate plans too. They look good. High enough mileage but i guess that's the way to improve. MY OH is going to love me when he sees another plan appearing on the fridge :pac:

    I'll get myself to a park run one of the Saturdays and use the calculator then. I'm interested to see what i can run over 5k. I don't think there's any point setting paces off my marathon time and before that my last 10km was July so that is probably not really valid at this point either :cool:


  • #75
    clickerquicklic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭clickerquicklic


    I have a couple of questions already if anyone would be so kind as to share an opinion.

    I'm looking to train for 5k speed and the Raheny 5 mile so trying to get some pace back in legs
    For reference
    5k pb 18.44(parkrun) two months ago.
    10k pb 39.50 (fingal 10k)

    I just went out and did a session I made up myself , it was cold and I didn't want to stand around doing intervals or run for too long so did
    10km of 1km easy / 1km hard . I started too fast (I think ) and the latter fast splits are slower.

    1 1.0 km 5:15 5:15 /km
    2 1.0 km 3:38 3:38 /km
    3 1.0 km 5:26 5:26 /km
    4 1.0 km 3:38 3:38 /km
    5 1.0 km 5:38 5:38 /km
    6 1.0 km 3:42 3:42 /km
    7 1.0 km 5:49 5:49 /km
    8 1.0 km 3:50 3:50 /km
    9 1.0 km 6:03 6:03 /km
    10 0.7 km 2:51 3:54 /km

    Am I doing the fast splits too fast and the slow splits too slow? That's my gut feeling , how fast should you do these fast splits when trying to improve 5k-10k speed do you do them at 5k pb pace or 10k pb pace or some other pace?

    Thanks


  • #76
    Testosterscone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Testosterscone


    clickerquicklic wrote: »
    I have a couple of questions already if anyone would be so kind as to share an opinion.

    I'm looking to train for 5k speed and the Raheny 5 mile so trying to get some pace back in legs
    For reference
    5k pb 18.44(parkrun) two months ago.
    10k pb 39.50 (fingal 10k)

    I just went out and did a session I made up myself , it was cold and I didn't want to stand around doing intervals or run for too long so did
    10km of 1km easy / 1km hard . I started too fast (I think ) and the latter fast splits are slower.

    1 1.0 km 5:15 5:15 /km
    2 1.0 km 3:38 3:38 /km
    3 1.0 km 5:26 5:26 /km
    4 1.0 km 3:38 3:38 /km
    5 1.0 km 5:38 5:38 /km
    6 1.0 km 3:42 3:42 /km
    7 1.0 km 5:49 5:49 /km
    8 1.0 km 3:50 3:50 /km
    9 1.0 km 6:03 6:03 /km
    10 0.7 km 2:51 3:54 /km

    Am I doing the fast splits too fast and the slow splits too slow? That's my gut feeling , how fast should you do these fast splits when trying to improve 5k-10k speed do you do them at 5k pb pace or 10k pb pace or some other pace?

    Thanks

    Depends on how this session fits with the rest of your training. In terms of a strength session while giving the body a bit of a callusing effect at 5k pace it's fine at the paces as is but as you get closer to race day you would want to have similar efforts off short recovery to try and get the vo2 max desired effects.

    No harm in mixing this up with 6x800m off 2 - 2.30 jog recovery at same pace


  • #77
    Swashbuckler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,583 ✭✭✭Swashbuckler


    clickerquicklic wrote: »
    I have a couple of questions already if anyone would be so kind as to share an opinion.

    I'm looking to train for 5k speed and the Raheny 5 mile so trying to get some pace back in legs
    For reference
    5k pb 18.44(parkrun) two months ago.
    10k pb 39.50 (fingal 10k)

    I just went out and did a session I made up myself , it was cold and I didn't want to stand around doing intervals or run for too long so did
    10km of 1km easy / 1km hard . I started too fast (I think ) and the latter fast splits are slower.

    1 1.0 km 5:15 5:15 /km
    2 1.0 km 3:38 3:38 /km
    3 1.0 km 5:26 5:26 /km
    4 1.0 km 3:38 3:38 /km
    5 1.0 km 5:38 5:38 /km
    6 1.0 km 3:42 3:42 /km
    7 1.0 km 5:49 5:49 /km
    8 1.0 km 3:50 3:50 /km
    9 1.0 km 6:03 6:03 /km
    10 0.7 km 2:51 3:54 /km

    Am I doing the fast splits too fast and the slow splits too slow? That's my gut feeling , how fast should you do these fast splits when trying to improve 5k-10k speed do you do them at 5k pb pace or 10k pb pace or some other pace?

    Thanks

    I'll give my opinion on a couple of things but see what some of the more experienced guys say before running off with my advice ... lol

    At first glance the main thing i see is your recovery is much too long. I can't recall doing any session where I had five or six minutes of recovery between sets. The fast pace doesn't seem all that bad to me....its pretty close to your 5k effort. So maybe similar fast pace but shorter recoveries.
    Another point is a session as a standalone session doesn't mean much in my opinion. Your sessions should progress in a planned way i.e. what did you do last week and what will you do next week and so on...For example one week you might run 7 x 3mins at 5k effort with 75s recovery, the following week you might run 5 x 4mins with 90s recovery, so always progressing. (Just rough examples)

    One thing I've learned is unless you have some coaching background or a great knowledge of running, don't make up sessions yourself. More often than not (and i've done it myself) you'll do it "wrong". Follow a plan....

    Nice times by the way. Not far off my own PB times. Looks like you have decent speed in you.


  • #78
    RolandDeschain
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 109 ✭✭RolandDeschain


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    Sub 40.....Holy Sh1t !!! I love it.

    Working towards it......sub 43 within 12 months is the realistic target. But only if I start getting my training together.

    Great to see we are back talking about paces!!


  • #79
    RolandDeschain
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 109 ✭✭RolandDeschain


    Don't think I'll make the Raheny 5 this year..... absolutely gutted.


  • #80
    clickerquicklic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭clickerquicklic


    Thanks lads , shorter recoveries got it ! I will follow a plan in the new year I’m just enjoying running off plan at the moment it’ll be hard to fully commit this side of Chrismas to running 4 Times a week.

    I really wasn’t in the humour of running this morning so didn’t set watch up and was lazy just going off the 1km beeps , will try same again next week with 2 mins rest.


  • #81
    Sheep1978
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 498 ✭✭Sheep1978


    Not been on much since DCM as been injured but here goes:

    A: What are your next goals?

    Once back after xmas, to keep up some weekly runs and sessions while finishing out the football season. Then join a club and do some proper plans and races etc.

    B: What type of training do you intend to do over the winter?

    With football training and games, I'll probably only get to do two runs max a week.

    C: Where do you hope to see yourself to be in 12 months with your running?

    In a club, with plenty more miles under the belt before I head into most likely another DCM plan.




    I'm 'officially' out of action till 2018 but I think I'm going to do Jingle bells this weeks and then rest up


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  • #82
    Sheep1978
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 498 ✭✭Sheep1978


    I can't get into any of the plans as the links are blocked in work. Any chance someone has them in excel and can email to me.? Wouldn't mind a look


  • #83
    ariana`
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭ariana`


    Sheep1978 wrote: »
    I can't get into any of the plans as the links are blocked in work. Any chance someone has them in excel and can email to me.? Wouldn't mind a look

    PM me your email address and i'll send them on?


  • #84
    Testosterscone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Testosterscone


    clickerquicklic wrote: »
    Thanks lads , shorter recoveries got it ! I will follow a plan in the new year I’m just enjoying running off plan at the moment it’ll be hard to fully commit this side of Chrismas to running 4 Times a week.

    I really wasn’t in the humour of running this morning so didn’t set watch up and was lazy just going off the 1km beeps , will try same again next week with 2 mins rest.

    Given that you were already flagging with such long recoveries I would say that would be too big a jump try this the next three weeks

    8x600 @ race pace with 2 min rec
    6x800 @ race pace with 2 min rec
    5x1k @ race pace with 2 min rec


  • #85
    clickerquicklic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭clickerquicklic


    Testosterscone wrote: »
    Given that you were already flagging with such long recoveries I would say that would be too big a jump try this the next three weeks

    8x600 @ race pace with 2 min rec
    6x800 @ race pace with 2 min rec
    5x1k @ race pace with 2 min rec

    Excellent will do thanks.


  • #86
    Damo 2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,515 ✭✭✭Damo 2k9


    Glad clicker asked about that, in a really similar situation at the minute, only starting with sessions. Running with a couple people who are fairly knowledgeable runners, so have been asking many questions. First session was 4x3mins w/ 2min rec, then the following week we had only 90 seconds recovery, the 30 seconds definitely make a difference. Im glad to see ive been doing them right by running @ race pace, just need to get more miles in during the week and I should be in a decent place to get sub 19. Apart from jingle bells is there any other 5ks coming up?? Even in new year, cant get to JB which im gutted about as would love to meet up with a few of ye again.


  • #87
    clickerquicklic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭clickerquicklic


    Damo 2k9 wrote: »
    Glad clicker asked about that, in a really similar situation at the minute, only starting with sessions. Running with a couple people who are fairly knowledgeable runners, so have been asking many questions. First session was 4x3mins w/ 2min rec, then the following week we had only 90 seconds recovery, the 30 seconds definitely make a difference. Im glad to see ive been doing them right by running @ race pace, just need to get more miles in during the week and I should be in a decent place to get sub 19. Apart from jingle bells is there any other 5ks coming up?? Even in new year, cant get to JB which im gutted about as would love to meet up with a few of ye again.

    Fair play Damo your flying , I'm a few weeks away from been in sub 19 shape i'll target it in New Year i'm not in a mad rush ill enjoy the journey.

    Not sure if Saturday mornings suit you but the Parkrun is a great practice each week great to run with others and practice different things.

    Your a young buck you'll probably break 18 fairly soon after 19 , it's harder for us lads nearing 40.


  • #88
    Damo 2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,515 ✭✭✭Damo 2k9


    clickerquicklic wrote: »
    Fair play Damo your flying , I'm a few weeks away from been in sub 19 shape i'll target it in New Year i'm not in a mad rush ill enjoy the journey.

    Not sure if Saturday mornings suit you but the Parkrun is a great practice each week great to run with others and practice different things.

    Your a young buck you'll probably break 18 fairly soon after 19 , it's harder for us lads nearing 40.

    Saturday mornings are probably the worst morning for me, work almost every saturday, had the marathon off and now next saturday off, but thats it other then weeks holidays.

    Will probably push for it next weekend at parkrun tbh, legs feel great lately (apart from my foot last week).

    If at 40 I can be running the times you are, ill be a very happy 40 year old!! Keep it up :cool:


  • #89
    El Caballo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭El Caballo


    Testosterscone wrote: »
    Given that you were already flagging with such long recoveries I would say that would be too big a jump try this the next three weeks

    Just want to add onto this. Specifically on what race pace means, Hope you don't mind me using your session as an example clicker. When you training at race pace, it's important not to get too mixed up on goal pace and current fitness as they can often differ especially in a situation like yours where you are coming back off a marathon and maybe not currently in PB shape. The temptation is there to push on and train at the pace of goal times or your PB pace like you did in your session heading off at sub-18:30 pace. Training at goal pace rather than current fitness can be counterproductive as the goal is to slightly nudge up your current fitness. When you run a good bit faster in these intervals than that level of fitness, you start changing the stress of a workout which also has a knock on effect on the recovery time after the session which change change the whole look you the week you had planned.

    The goal behind race pace intervals is to get efficient at race pace and the intensity involved in running that session. This is applicable to every workout whether it a Marathon paced run, Tempo or race specific intervals. I wouldn't be a big fan of running goal pace workouts it is often out of reach until the last few weeks of training when you are fit to run that pace. What I'm kind of saying here is that you should let goal pace come to you as you get fitter rather than chasing it by running faster than your current fitness level.

    I've made this mistake countless times myself by running intervals too hard and fading as the session went on. The goal is not to race these workouts but to teach your body to run efficiently.


  • #90
    clickerquicklic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭clickerquicklic


    El Caballo wrote: »
    Just want to add onto this. Specifically on what race pace means, Hope you don't mind me using your session as an example clicker.

    Please do use me as an example ! I haven't got a clue what i'm doing just out running what I think are good sessions , I'm trying to run faster than goal race pace so race pace feels ok or easier. But you can see from the drop off as the session progressed I didn't nail it , in fairness I the last 2 fast segments I was crossing roads at traffic lights and and had to cross a couple of junctions that probably slowed me a bit but I was slower for sure and feeling it.

    Next plan is to do these sessions on a loop somewhere with no cars and traffic lights.

    You already answered a few questions I had about training at goal pace or current fitness pace so cheers.


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  • #91
    skyblue46
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,805 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    I suppose what it boils down to is that random running by feel or targeting aggressive paces may feel comfortable today and tomorrow but the cumulative affects will not be felt until weeks later. If we push too hard now there will be a price to be paid in the future. Accepted wisdom is that for a reason, it has been proven. I'm reverting to the slowly slowly catchy monkey approach. :pac:


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