Brexit discussion thread II

Enzokk · 25-11-2017 07:58AM

solodeogloria wrote: »

I've replied to you on all of these points before. It isn't honest to say that I haven't.

Going round and round and round in circles isn't helpful. To a degree rehashing the referendum isn't helpful. The matter is settled - the UK is leaving the EU. What isn't settled is how exactly this happens which is what the negotiation will settle.

Discussing the way Britain is going to leave is much better than rearguing about what was settled 18 months ago.

You have replied but on points that you don't agree with you either ignore them or change the argument. The UK had a way to control EU immigration from no control (take back control!), you then said 6 months is too long before you can expel someone from the UK and it wouldn't work without seeing it in practice.

That is from the referendum so you are right it will not change anything about the situation, although what it tells you about the UK government and not knowing the rules or not applying the rules if they are aware of them for their own needs should tell you something. Either they are all incompetent or they know the benefit of EU workers to the UK.

You have also waved away the fact the the UK has about 50% trade with the EU if you discount gold from the numbers by stating it still counts somehow. That is why I have said you either hand wave away arguments or ignore them. This is something that hasn't been really thought about and the perception still want to persist that the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU.

I still see no laws that the UK have such an objection to from the EU and your objection to ECJ oversight is about numbers (27 to 1) and not how they work in practice (the actual rulings that are made). That is arguing about your feelings which cannot be changed by facts because facts doesn't change feelings. I feel afraid of zombies/ghosts so my fear of zombies/ghosts are at an all time high, the fact that there are no such things doesn't matter. Do you see how hard it is to argue against feelings?

In any case, back to squaring the circle that is the Irish border. How do you both leave a customs union and apply no customs? How is this the EU's problem alone? How do you control immigration and at the same time have an open border?

murphaph · 25-11-2017 09:15AM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

You do say that the UK thinks that Ireland needs access to it to get to the outside world. That's broadly speaking true. It does. That's what I was responding to. I agree that most goods from the Republic don't pass through NI but they definitely do pass through the UK.

This is why we should be looking for a good deal.

As for open Britain and the EU being open. The EU is open to itself primarily. It is highly protectionist in respect to the wider world however.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Can you name a few countries or trade blocs that are less protectionist than the EU?

If the UK cuts Irish trucks off it will face massive retaliation from the EU and will be ruined. The EU will at the same time massively invest in the southern Irish and French ports and the connecting ferries to reconnect Ireland to the continent.

Good evening at 6am on a Saturday morning in the UK? Are you in the UK?

Oh and what about a replacement for EASA by (latest) March 2019?

Water John · 25-11-2017 10:35AM

Solo gets his time zones mixed up quite regularly. Considering the detail of his/her posts, it's a strange anomoly???

Could happen though, if in the USA.

Samaris · 25-11-2017 10:44AM

Water John wrote: »

Solo gets his time zones mixed up quite regularly. Considering the detail of his/her posts, it's a strange anomoly???

Could happen though, if in the USA.

Ssh, don't let him know we've noticed :P

Water John · 25-11-2017 11:06AM

Good to see someone doing research and reports on the Border. The EU Parliament. Reading the piece on the 2 Reports. It isn't very optimistic.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42111690

Unless the UK come up with a magical solution???

First Up · 25-11-2017 11:40AM

murphaph wrote:

If the UK cuts Irish trucks off it will face massive retaliation from the EU and will be ruined. The EU will at the same time massively invest in the southern Irish and French ports and the connecting ferries to reconnect Ireland to the continent.

There is no risk of Irish trucks being "cut off". Transit for sealed cargo through the UK via the Channel Tunnel or ports will still be an option as will be transit for NI trucks through the ROI to France.

But customs procedures and congestion will slow things and it won't be possible to do pick-ups or drop-offs en route. This will affect the logistics in both directions and will cause some routing changes, especially for sophisticated supply chains and JIT operations.

For Irish cargo, the delays entering the UK and again re-entering the EU may make it too much hassle to go via UK ports but the option will still be there.

Cork and Rosslare can look forward to a big increase in traffic and we are already seeing the Dublin - France route being expanded.

Sam Russell · 25-11-2017 12:50PM

First Up wrote: »

There is no risk of Irish trucks being "cut off". Transit for sealed cargo through the UK via the Channel Tunnel or ports will still be an option as will be transit for NI trucks through the ROI to France.

But customs procedures and congestion will slow things and it won't be possible to do pick-ups or drop-offs en route. This will affect the logistics in both directions and will cause some routing changes, especially for sophisticated supply chains and JIT operations.

For Irish cargo, the delays entering the UK and again re-entering the EU may make it too much hassle to go via UK ports but the option will still be there.

Cork and Rosslare can look forward to a big increase in traffic and we are already seeing the Dublin - France route being expanded.

Just looking at Athlone to Paris on google maps.

Going through UK, travel time is given as 16 hours, including two ferries.

Going from Athlone to Rosslare is 3 hrs, and Roscoff to Paris is given as 5 and half hours. So driving time is, say 9 hours. The transit for the ferry is about 18 hours, but it does not require a driver, unlike the 'landbridge' route, as otherwise three drivers would be required. Also, there would be free RORO at both ports, and no delay. So an extra 11 hours, but predictable delivery times.

I'd say a bit of financial assistance from the EU might make a huge difference to the economics of the Rosslare route. Imagine how long the delay will be for transit through Dover or Calais? And if full customs clearance is required, and even sealed trucks will be caught up in the snarl ups.

If sea transit times is not an issue, Dublin to Roscoff might be a good option.

kowtow · 25-11-2017 12:59PM

sameoldname wrote: »

Just on the democracy point... 2 of the 4 countries within the United Kingdom voted to remain in the EU and will be pulled out against their will because of the wishes of the other 2. So that must mean the UK government is far too detached from its subjects? Or is it just democracy in action? I would say that depends on who you talk to personally and what side they came down on...
Just as a point of interest, that wouldn't happen with an EU decision thanks to QMV.

You are quite right, for some the UK Govt. is certainly too detached hence the Scottish Referendum and the significant moves towards devolution. That is the nature of democracy, and there is a balance to be struck of course. The question is one of direction - do you move power further and further down to the town and the village (as in the Swiss Federal model) or allow your elected politicians to delegate power away to a Supra National?

Democracy is - after all - the tyranny of the majority. It's a tyranny more easily borne when the Electorate is small enough to have most things in common, bound together by culture, history, or place. The British are not only geographically separate but Anglo Saxon in their outlook, and are in many ways diametrically opposite to the Napoleonic countries.

It's not quite true to say that EU law has not been forced unwillingly on the UK electorate - although it wasn't Europe that forced it on them. There has never been a referendum on Europe since the initial accession to the EEC, and although a referendum on the proposed EU constitution pre Lisbon was scheduled and legislated for (and had been a manifesto commitment I think) it was skipped around by the Blair government when the form of the treaty changed and they signed up. At the time every single opinion poll suggested that the British people would vote no to a European constitution if a referendum had been held as promised. Delegatus non potest delegare.

The UK is a long way from a clientilist system. Governments are chosen then left to get on with it, referenda are virtually unknown. Perhaps if this wasn't the case people would have adopted EU government directly and enthusiastically, who knows?

But in any event the antipathy to government from Europe is more than a misunderstanding on behalf of the populace.

First Up · 25-11-2017 01:45PM

Sam Russell wrote:

If sea transit times is not an issue, Dublin to Roscoff might be a good option.

IF now have 3 vessels available and have good port facilities in both Dublin and Rosslare. It would not be a problem for them to re-orientate their schedule more to France than the UK.

Both Cherbourg and Roscoff are served now and I wouldn't be surprised to see Le Havre back on the schedule to capture traffic that wants to avoid the impending chaos at UK ports.

An Ciarraioch · 25-11-2017 02:22PM

Ruth Dudley Edwards starts out in a reasonable fashion, highlighting Kenny's political negotiations after the referendum result, improved cross-border relations post-GFA, and Ireland's liberalisation in recent decades. Unfortunately, she then seems to consider Coveney as a rabid nationalist, cosies up to Ray Bassett, and advocates a nebulous "free trade Brexit" between Ireland and the UK:

https://amp.ft.com/content/eabdd85c-d12b-11e7-b781-794ce08b24dc

Sam Russell · 25-11-2017 02:39PM

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Ruth Dudley Edwards starts out in a reasonable fashion, highlighting Kenny's political negotiations after the referendum result, improved cross-border relations post-GFA, and Ireland's liberalisation in recent decades. Unfortunately, she then seems to consider Coveney as a rabid nationalist, cosies up to Ray Bassett, and advocates a nebulous "free trade Brexit" between Ireland and the UK:

https://amp.ft.com/content/eabdd85c-d12b-11e7-b781-794ce08b24dc

You do know that Ruth Dudley Edwards has history on Nationalist/Unionist spectrum.

Criticism of Ken Loach[edit]
Following the Cannes prize announcement, for The Wind That Shakes the Barley, Ruth Dudley Edwards wrote in the Daily Mail on 30 May 2006 that Loach's political viewpoint "requires the portrayal of the British as sadists and the Irish as romantic, idealistic resistance fighters who take to violence only because there is no other self-respecting course,"[7] and attacked his career in an article.[8] The following week, Edwards continued her attack in The Guardian, admitting that her first article was written without seeing the film (which at that stage had only been shown at Cannes), and asserting that she would never see it "because I can't stand its sheer predictability."[9]

Dudley Edwards has stated that she is "not in principle against Irish unification".

Crtisising a film never having seen it is gold standard criticism for a very biased reviewer. Of course, saying "not in principle against Irish unification" means she is very much against Irish unification, along the lines of 'some of my best friends are Jews'.

Also, she was married to Patrick John Francis Cosgrave who was an Anglophile Irish journalist and writer, and a staunch supporter of the British Conservative Party. He was an adviser to future Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher, whilst she was Leader of the Opposition.

flaneur · 25-11-2017 02:54PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Just looking at Athlone to Paris on google maps.

Going through UK, travel time is given as 16 hours, including two ferries.

Going from Athlone to Rosslare is 3 hrs, and Roscoff to Paris is given as 5 and half hours. So driving time is, say 9 hours. The transit for the ferry is about 18 hours, but it does not require a driver, unlike the 'landbridge' route, as otherwise three drivers would be required. Also, there would be free RORO at both ports, and no delay. So an extra 11 hours, but predictable delivery times.

I'd say a bit of financial assistance from the EU might make a huge difference to the economics of the Rosslare route. Imagine how long the delay will be for transit through Dover or Calais? And if full customs clearance is required, and even sealed trucks will be caught up in the snarl ups.

If sea transit times is not an issue, Dublin to Roscoff might be a good option.

With the Brittany Ferries Pont Aven (very serious ship and really pleasant on board) ex Cork it's only 14 hours to Roscoff.

With a few hundred million of investment, you'd have a very good alternative to going through Britian.

Also with the right ship, you could cut the CO2 output.

One solution might be a fleet of LHD tractors (truck front part) hitting the continental routes from Ireland. The long drives would be done with the steering wheel on the correct side.

The notion that Ireland has no options other than the UK routes is nonsense.

Also the UK stands to lose a huge amount of exports to Ireland. We are their 5th largest export market for goods and many of those items are real, manufactured goods but they could be replaced if supply chains flip from the UK to France and Benelux.

Many of the "exports", for example household products are actually just distributed via the UK as Ireland is considered to be easily distributed to by treating it as UK & Ireland. A lot of that could change very quickly and easily if Irish supermarkets decide to source via different distribution hubs.

Also Ireland is a significant user of UK logistical facilities, that could change too.

At present the UK is a major port of entry to the EU as it has a big logistical infrastructure for air freight and also shipping. They stand to lose all of that and reduce their significance to just being domestic ports for UK trade only.

Most of this will be gobbled up by Dutch and Belgian ports and other EU airports.

Actually Shannon, as a quiet airport with a big runway, has a good opportunity to position itself for taking some EU-North American freight that may skip the UK after 2019. If it manages to get the correct scale of cargo facilities in place, it could position itself as a cargo hub for onward air freight. However, I suspect the major chunk of this will go to the Benelux region as they already have the infrastructure and also access to excellent ground transport to most of the EU big markets. But, Shannon could pitch to point to point air freight.

Whatever way you're looking at this, there are major disruptions in Britian ahead, if they pursue what they're proposing.

Sand · 25-11-2017 03:02PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

But think of it this way; if we fail to use the veto, and settle for a deal that involves a hard border, we're probably stuck with that permanently. The UK gets an EU trade deal, but they can also import all the chlorinated chicken they need to and it's no threat to the EU and doesn't jeopardise their EU relationship, so why would they ever want to change that?

But if we use the veto, we get a hard border but the UK is in a much stickier position, with no EU trade deal. And they'll know, because it will have been established by the Irish veto, that if they ever want an EU trade deal, they need to do whatever needs to be done to make that hard border go away.

And it is almost inevitable that the UK will, eventually, realise that it wants and needs an EU trade deal. Liam Fox will not be Trade Secretary for ever; some day someone sane will be appointed. And Arlene Foster will not always be someone who has to be taken seriously at Westminster. The UK's grand strategy of negotiating a brilliant set of trade deals with the world using their nimble skills will be in shreds if, when push comes to shove, they cannot conclude a trade deal with their nearest and largest neighbour, the EU. They need this deal; we need no hard border; the meeting-point of the two countries' interests, the space were a deal is better than no deal for both countries, is clear.

I completely agree with this. Its better to have a hard brexit that doesn't work for anyone for 2-3 years than a hard but manageable brexit we are stuck with for 20-30 years.

flaneur · 25-11-2017 03:07PM

Actually the worst case scenario for Ireland is probably a "soft" Brexit fudge that ends up giving the UK unfair access to the EU and an unfair competitive advantage with one foot in a the other foot out.

Something like that could destroy the Irish economy far more so than a hard Brexit.

We need to be very careful what we lobby for and to ensure we aren't used as either a pawn or a door wedge by the UK.

kowtow · 25-11-2017 03:11PM

flaneur wrote: »

Actually the worst case scenario for Ireland is probably a "soft" Brexit fudge that ends up giving the UK unfair access to the EU and an unfair competitive advantage with one foot in a the other foot out.

Something like that could destroy the Irish economy far more so than a hard Brexit.

We need to be very careful what we lobby for and to ensure we aren't used as either a pawn or a door wedge by the UK.

I think we need to be very careful as well that any "compensation" or special assistance we receive to ameliorate Brexit doesn't come with expensive long term strings attached - implicitly or explicitly. There's little point building fantastic new export routes for goods from Ireland only to lose the manufacturers as a consequence of tax changes a few years down the line.

Sam Russell · 25-11-2017 03:13PM

flaneur wrote: »

With the Brittany Ferries Pont Aven (very serious ship and really pleasant on board) ex Cork it's only 14 hours to Roscoff.

With a few hundred million of investment, you'd have a very good alternative to going through Britian.

Also with the right ship, you could cut the CO2 output.

One solution might be a fleet of LHD tractors (truck front part) hitting the continental routes from Ireland. The long drives would be done with the steering wheel on the correct side.

The notion that Ireland has no options other than the UK routes is nonsense.

Why ship the tractor on the ferry? The French part uses a French driver and tractor unit. That way, the Irish driver drops his trailer in Rosslare, and picks up the return trailer and returns, getting home without a rest period (if he is lucky). No driver on the ferry needing a bed and breakfast, dinner and tea. French driver picks up load, having dropped his Irish bound trailer, and returns to Paris (or wherever). All win, win, win.

flaneur · 25-11-2017 03:41PM

Probably depends who's cheaper to employ.

Sam Russell · 25-11-2017 03:44PM

flaneur wrote: »

Probably depends who's cheaper to employ.

I would think 18 hours of no driver makes the French driver cheaper. I also do not think wages would vary all that much - besides the French side does not have to be a French driver, could just as easily be Irish, or Latvian.

flaneur · 25-11-2017 03:45PM

kowtow wrote: »

I think we need to be very careful as well that any "compensation" or special assistance we receive to ameliorate Brexit doesn't come with expensive long term strings attached - implicitly or explicitly. There's little point building fantastic new export routes for goods from Ireland only to lose the manufacturers as a consequence of tax changes a few years down the line.

They are two are quite separate issues and the tax harmonisation push can only go so far before a whole load of countries start to push back. Ireland's not the only one that's exposed there and I think you could see a major shift if everyone starts being nasty and pushing cases against members for state aid and so on.

By not giving way too much on the UK’s demands, we also remove a major low tax EU competitor. It’s not all horror stories. If the British want to cut themselves off and burn all the bridges, who are we to stop them?

The one thing we absolutely do not need is a UK that can cut tax and regulation and maintain full market access, as if it never left. That would effectively render our EU membership pointless for trade and would destroy the economy. I can’t see the EU allowing that to happen either though as it’s in nobody’s interests other than the UK. At that stage it will be a direct competitor, not a member.

A large aspect of the EU's raison d'être is to ensure that regions aren’t isolated and that trade flows. So I can’t see their being “strings attached”. The money will likely come from the UK divorce settlement as part of dealing with collateral damage they’ve caused.

We just need to push for a solution that mitigates the impact on the border regions.

I still think the majority of people commenting in the UK don’t fully appreciate the implications of what they’re asking for. A lot of them seem to be asking for a hard Brexit and many of them are vitriolic about it. At the same time, they seem to still think they’ll have many of the benefits of membership, because they’ve become so used to them that they take them for granted.

Being completely cut off as a 3rd country is inevitably going to cause a huge economic shock for the UK as it’s a massive change to the foundations of their economy. There’s nothing spin or project fear about saying that. It’s just creating turmoil for exclusively political reasons.

Ireland needs to ensure that we are well cushioned from that.

Sand · 25-11-2017 03:50PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would think 18 hours of no driver makes the French driver cheaper. I also do not think wages would vary all that much - besides the French side does not have to be a French driver, could just as easily be Irish, or Latvian.

Wouldn't the main challenge be getting the trailers on and off the ferry? I pretend to have no knowledge on this, but loading is going to be easier when its drive on, drive off rather than drive on, unhitch, manoeuvre the tractor out and then on the other side manoeuvre the tractor in, hitch the trailer, drive out while dodging all the other tractors trying to reverse in and hitch up? It could significantly increase the time taken at least.

Sam Russell · 25-11-2017 03:55PM

Sand wrote: »

Wouldn't the main challenge be getting the trailers on and off the ferry? I pretend to have no knowledge on this, but loading is going to be easier when its drive on, drive off rather than drive on, unhitch, manoeuvre the tractor out and then on the other side manoeuvre the tractor in, hitch the trailer, drive out while dodging all the other tractors trying to reverse in and hitch up? It could significantly increase the time taken at least.

They have special tractor units to do exactly that. [I too am not an expert, but I have watched this stuff while waiting to board]. The cab of the tractor can pivot to face both directions, and have special fittings to make lifting and dropping trailers much easier, after all they are only travelling at a little over walking pace, plus the drivers of these units do this all day long and are quite expert at it.

Also, the trailers take up less room without the tractor unit, so more units will fit.

Professor Moriarty · 25-11-2017 03:56PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

They have special tractor units to do exactly that. [I too am not an expert, but I have watched this stuff while waiting to board]. The cab of the tractor can pivot to face both directions, and have special fittings to make lifting and dropping trailers much easier, after all they are only travelling at a little over walking pace, plus the drivers of these units do this all day long and are quite expert at it.

Also, the trailers take up less room without the tractor unit, so more units will fit.

There's these things called container ships...

flaneur · 25-11-2017 03:59PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

There's these things called container ships...

There’s also long term access to European high speed electric rail freight which could reduce our carbon footprint.

Schorpio · 25-11-2017 04:03PM

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/25/protest-vote-regret-voting-leave-brexit

A good article on the Guardian today highlighting a few people who are willing to admit that they regret voting Leave (fair play - a hard thing to do).

As usual - an instant comment firestorm under the article, but I genuinely liked this one -

nutzlos1Politiker
So in a week where brexit negotiators were again reminded by Mr Barnier of what is required to make any progress in the initial divorce settlement (for the 100th time) It's like talking to a very small dim child, Mr Barnier must have the patience of a saint.

The first European agencies announced their leaving the UK, the EMA going to Amsterdam, and the EBA going to Paris.
The dopey maybot upped the offer to the EU for leaving to £40 billion, (This wasn't on Black Friday, and the EU are not discounting what the UK owes) So the deal will be rejected until the UK government start to take their commitments seriously and makes a realistic offer.
The UK will not have a judge on the bench of the international court of justice for the first time in its 71-year history, partly due to Boris Johnsons incompetence on the world stage and his continual insults to foreign countries.
The universities are facing a real problem as 5,000 lecturers are planning on returning to the EU taking their research and development funding with them, this is a major blow Losing the highly regarded lecturers will be devastating to the students who require stimulus and encouragement to develop their own intellect, but to lose the research and development that is the future for any progressive country is catastrophic.
The opinions voiced by EU ministers and senior officials to Irish diplomats reflect widespread pessimism and even scorn about the British government’s negotiating position.
Some EU figures talk of “chaos” in the British government. It is seemingly more likely that Gibraltar will become a part of Spain, (only 4% of the 26,000 population voted to leave the EU) and the government is doing nothing to block this. Spain believes Gibraltar will now fall out of the single market on 29 March 2019. Gibraltar’s prime minister, Fabian Picardo, has previously suggested that a hard Brexit would pose an “existential threat”.
During Wednesday’s Budget, Philip Hammond, in a series of statements aimed at highlighting the strength and health of the British economy, admitted that the country has slipped to sixth spot, trailing France.
EU cancels Britain’s hosting of European capital of culture. As the uk will no longer be a member of the EU, will not be a member of the EEA and is not a country wishing to join the EU (the three qualifications for being included in the Capital of Culture nominations) by 2019.
The NI and GFA are in turmoil over the border issues and things will only get worse.
And today UK consumer confidence hits lowest level since Brexit vote.
All this and the government are now saying be prepared for 10 to 20 years of wage freezes and recession
Come on Brexiters tell me is this really what you voted for and all this good news was in just ONE week.
Now perhaps you realise just what damage you have caused the country, but I doubt it.

First Up · 25-11-2017 04:26PM

kowtow wrote:

I think we need to be very careful as well that any "compensation" or special assistance we receive to ameliorate Brexit doesn't come with expensive long term strings attached - implicitly or explicitly. There's little point building fantastic new export routes for goods from Ireland only to lose the manufacturers as a consequence of tax changes a few years down the line.

Any "compensation" would be in the form of investment in infrastructure at ports, not subsidies for transport of freight.

flaneur · 25-11-2017 05:11PM

It would likely be done under the TEN-T programme (Trans European Networks) as the UK leaving creates a significant disruption to those corridors.

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/infrastructure/tentec/tentec-portal/site/index_en.htm

You have to remember that free-flowing transport / movement of goods is one of the key reasons for the EU to exist at all. So, this is a very fundamental issue for it to tackle around Brexit.

It would simply be seen as part of pan-EU infrastructure to support the broader EU, not as specific aid to Ireland really.

There's an over-simplistic view of EU money as 'aid'. That's not really how the EU tends to see it. It's more about putting the ground work in place to ensure that the broader EU economy works well. That includes a lot of the money that's gone into economies to bring them up to speed. A prosperous Estonia or Poland or Portugal is basically good for everyone in the EU as it means more money flowing around, more opportunities, etc etc.

The UK right (and also some other right leaning political parties in Germany etc) narrative tends to see this as "giving money to countries as aid". The European narrative is more "we're all in this together".

The logic is that the countries you're putting money into now as net recipients, eventually become net contributors. That has been the case in Ireland for example.

In may ways, I think the UK's jingoism and vitriol no longer being part of the EU is not necessarily a bad thing as maybe the rest of us can get on with actually being nice to each other and not treating each other as enemies. I think the whole rhetoric that's spewed, largely from the British tabloids, has been utterly toxic bile mostly and has done a lot of damage, way beyond the UK.

I'm not even saying that the EU should go towards some federalist approach, but just that it has a lot of benefits as well as quit a few hitches and issues that need to be ironed out, but it's far from the evil monster that's painted in the UK media a lot of the time. It's a real case of the baby being thrown out with the bathwater in Britain at the moment.

First Up · 25-11-2017 07:27PM

flaneur wrote:

It would simply be seen as part of pan-EU infrastructure to support the broader EU, not as specific aid to Ireland really.

Correct and well justified in that context.

Looking likely too as Arlene is insisting that NI goes down with the ship.

ambro25 · 25-11-2017 07:50PM

Schorpio wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/25/protest-vote-regret-voting-leave-brexit

A good article on the Guardian today highlighting a few people who are willing to admit that they regret voting Leave (fair play - a hard thing to do).

As usual - an instant comment firestorm under the article, but I genuinely liked this one -

nutzlos1Politiker
So in a week where brexit negotiators were again reminded by Mr Barnier of what is required to make any progress in the initial divorce settlement (for the 100th time) It's like talking to a very small dim child, Mr Barnier must have the patience of a saint.

The first European agencies announced their leaving the UK, the EMA going to Amsterdam, and the EBA going to Paris.
The dopey maybot upped the offer to the EU for leaving to £40 billion, (This wasn't on Black Friday, and the EU are not discounting what the UK owes) So the deal will be rejected until the UK government start to take their commitments seriously and makes a realistic offer.
The UK will not have a judge on the bench of the international court of justice for the first time in its 71-year history, partly due to Boris Johnsons incompetence on the world stage and his continual insults to foreign countries.
The universities are facing a real problem as 5,000 lecturers are planning on returning to the EU taking their research and development funding with them, this is a major blow Losing the highly regarded lecturers will be devastating to the students who require stimulus and encouragement to develop their own intellect, but to lose the research and development that is the future for any progressive country is catastrophic.
The opinions voiced by EU ministers and senior officials to Irish diplomats reflect widespread pessimism and even scorn about the British government’s negotiating position.
Some EU figures talk of “chaos” in the British government. It is seemingly more likely that Gibraltar will become a part of Spain, (only 4% of the 26,000 population voted to leave the EU) and the government is doing nothing to block this. Spain believes Gibraltar will now fall out of the single market on 29 March 2019. Gibraltar’s prime minister, Fabian Picardo, has previously suggested that a hard Brexit would pose an “existential threat”.
During Wednesday’s Budget, Philip Hammond, in a series of statements aimed at highlighting the strength and health of the British economy, admitted that the country has slipped to sixth spot, trailing France.
EU cancels Britain’s hosting of European capital of culture. As the uk will no longer be a member of the EU, will not be a member of the EEA and is not a country wishing to join the EU (the three qualifications for being included in the Capital of Culture nominations) by 2019.
The NI and GFA are in turmoil over the border issues and things will only get worse.
And today UK consumer confidence hits lowest level since Brexit vote.
All this and the government are now saying be prepared for 10 to 20 years of wage freezes and recession
Come on Brexiters tell me is this really what you voted for and all this good news was in just ONE week.
Now perhaps you realise just what damage you have caused the country, but I doubt it.

I handed in my notice of resignation on Friday late afternoon, to round that week up.

That should clinch it :pac:

(I'm Brexoding full-on, with family in tow)

Capt'n Midnight · 25-11-2017 07:58PM

Since the EU will be smaller after Brexit, the quotas that other countries get for importing stuff into the EU will be getting smaller too. And the other countries aren't too happy with that.

So yeah I can see all those countries giving the UK the best deals ever :rolleyes:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42121442

Australia has criticised the UK's post-Brexit trade plans to split quotas of food imports from around the world.
...
Dave Harrison, from Beef and Lamb New Zealand, agreed that its finances could be hit hard if they were not allowed to choose where to import more or less of their products.
...
The US, Brazil and Canada are also said to have their doubts about the new deal, believing it could hit them financially.

Nody · 25-11-2017 08:13PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Since the EU will be smaller after Brexit, the quotas that other countries get for importing stuff into the EU will be getting smaller too. And the other countries aren't too happy with that.

So yeah I can see all those countries giving the UK the best deals ever :rolleyes:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42121442

It is much more fun than that; UK are taking on quotas from existing FTAs negotiated on their behalf but UK don't have a FTA back on the export side. So UK will now to go to for example Australia with a fixed qouta of the imports already done and try to negotiate a FTA which will further increase those quotas (because as far as Australia will be concerned they will ask for at least equal to equal parity in a FTA if not more). And since they now got a quota of sheep why not go for a new area that UK did not allow earlier? Best FTA eva!

Brexit discussion thread II

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