We’ve had abortions!/We haven't had abortions!

blarrah · 12-11-2017 02:43AM

Grayson wrote: »

So you made a choice that worked for you. Don't make that choice for everyone.

I keep seeing this sentiment, just as I'm about to leave the thread too.

You and a bunch of others are posting inane comments, let me explain, i'm not trying to be rude.

"Don't make that choice for everyone" fine. So what are you going to do? Are you going to vote? Are you going to recommend such and such to people in certain situations? You are obviously not going to say nothing, because youre pretty clear about telling other people what not to do already.

How do you figure into anything, should people be allowed do whatever they want? WHere do you draw the line (on any issue)?

Do you mind your own business on absolutely everything? You obviously don't because of your comments here.

Consider it rhetorical.

Toastytoes · 12-11-2017 02:43AM

blarrah wrote: »

I was just about to go to bed, saw that you made your best comment yet, and just had to reply! Sometimes you have to give into these little urges.

So heres what I have to say; Take a mirror, look yourself in the eyes, and then repeat your own words back to yourself.

You're a joke, you have avoided every single one of my comments, and have somehow come to the conclusion that it is I that am immature and cant deal with serious problems. Notwithstanding the admittedly childish (you need those moments!) return comment from me.....just read the last few pages of the exchange between us. You look ridiculous.

And now I better get my 8 year old arse into bed

(Try to get a good last word in now, something along the lines of "youre a poo poo head!" should be about your level, and that ones on the house)

Sure thing.... clearly I was completely mistaken as you’re obviously very mature.

Permabear · 12-11-2017 02:46AM

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Graham · 12-11-2017 02:48AM

blarrah wrote: »

"Don't make that choice for everyone" fine. So what are you going to do?

Give everyone the choice.

spookwoman · 12-11-2017 02:55AM

blarrah wrote: »

Who am I to judge people? I'm a human being. You may have noticed for the entirety of your life that everyone judges everything. Just like you're judging me for judging others.

You say that there are many people that don't have regrets, I say there are. Unless you're god and know everything.....its a moot point. The one difference is that I at least have provided something to talk about, you haven't.

You could apply your "point" to absolutely everything. *insert absolutely anything as a topic here*......your response, "but not necessarily so!"

You have the right to judge others but that doesn't mean you are right, just like because you have regrets doesn't mean everyone else shouldn't be given that choice.
You can assume there are others that will regret their choices be it having an abortion and not having one, it works both ways. People do regret going through with a pregnancy as well.
But the main point is it is their lives that are being affected not yours, how would you like it if someone butted into your life telling you what you could and couldn't do.

Permabear · 12-11-2017 03:00AM

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spookwoman · 12-11-2017 03:02AM

Permabear wrote: »

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difference between the state and some busy body

Permabear · 12-11-2017 03:03AM

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spookwoman · 12-11-2017 03:08AM

Permabear wrote: »

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I haven't seen the state push pictures of photoshopped fake pictures of aborted fetus into childrens faces on the street or harass women entering family planning clinics

Graham · 12-11-2017 03:09AM

Permabear wrote: »

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You realise this isn't another pro/anti thread right?

Are you planning to drop into the non-drinkers forum to tell them why you still like a pint at the weekend, just for the sake of balance.

One eyed Jack · 12-11-2017 03:09AM

Carry wrote: »

They not only had to fear prosecution (which didn’t happen) but also being shunned by all the people who quickly climbed up their moral high horse.

...

I’m not nosy, I still think that the more women say it out loud the more their predicament will be heard. And every abortion is a predicament that all those moralistic foetus-savers will never understand.

...

I’m interested in experiences of women who went through this ordeal.

May I ask - has it occurred to you at any point in your experiences and listening to the experiences of other women of their experience of abortion, that many of those women were themselves also feminists and foetus-savers?

Could it be possible for you then to understand why some women would prefer to keep their experiences of abortion to themselves, given that they may fear the wrath of opening themselves up to being humiliated and shunned by a person looking to get up on their own moral high horse?

My own experiences of women who have had abortions have been that they have been a mixed bag, with all sorts of individual perspectives, and yes, even women who have had abortions themselves who condemn other women for having abortions!

This idea that peoples morals regarding abortion delineates or aligns neatly along a particular set of preconceived ideas or ideological beliefs is no different than the hundreds of other threads that have already appeared on Boards regarding the issue of abortion, and your opening post is really no different. It's just saying the same thing in a different way - "I only want to hear from people who will validate my perspective of my experience".

That's at least one of the reasons why people may be reluctant to discuss their perspective of their experiences with others, whose perspective of their experiences may differ, thereby making them feel like their perspective of their experience is invalid, as it doesn't meet the criteria you've set out that they perceive are the only kinds of experiences you want to hear about.

RabbleRouser2k · 12-11-2017 07:33AM

I often wonder about my reasons for being here.

I don't know if I could actually fully defend my being alive-in that I don't believe I was actually wanted. My mother wanted two children, my dad only wanted one. And with good reason. He grew up in a large family, I'm talking double digits, and he did not the same for himself. Well, a number of miscarriages later, two doctors opinions (one telling them they would never have children, the other saying they would) and my brother was born.
And that is all my dad wanted-it was my mother who wanted two kids.

Well, cue my birth-and a lot of problems. Bronchitis at 6 months, Depression and anxiety for as far back as I can remember, and an emotionally immature individual who realized from an early age that parenting was not for him. (Animals I am terrible for, however, they boss me around and I let them.)
And never being close to my dad. Not like my brother anyway.

I often think did my parents make the right choice? And if they had chance to do it all over again, would they? I dunno, I often think they would have been better off without me, tbh. Especially if they had better access to information.

So a termination would have been better in the long run-times were tough financially, and I can't say I would have been any the wiser if I wasn't here.

JupiterKid · 12-11-2017 08:10AM

Good idea for a thread. Women in France in 1972 also publicly declared that they had abortions and saw resulting huge controversy and debate but the law was changed.

I know at least two women who have had abortions. And they are not at all like the type of women that the moralising "pro-lifers" would have us imagine.

One eyed Jack · 12-11-2017 08:33AM

JupiterKid wrote: »

I know at least two women who have had abortions. And they are not at all like the type of women that the moralising "pro-lifers" would have us imagine.

Well I suppose the fact that I imagine they are women is probably a good start, and not this "pregnant persons" nonsense I've seen doing the rounds lately, but apart from that, are they any different to moralising "pro-choicers"?

I don't imagine they are.

HandsomeBob · 12-11-2017 08:50AM

lazybones32 wrote: »

My dad had to bribe her to not kill me by taking her shopping in Dublin for a weekend.

Jesus.

shesty · 12-11-2017 09:08AM

Interesting thread.....

I have not had an abortion.I don't actually know anybody who has (or if they did, they certainly haven't told me).

I have been pregnant though.And I have seen the heartbeat on scans at 6/7 weeks in each.Could I have ended it?Nope.

If I was told at 12/20 weeks that it had a condition that meant it couldn't survive, could I end it? I don't think so myself - again I have seen the little wriggles, the fingers and toes, the baby that they are at that time.

BUT-that said, I fully believe there is a place for abortion for people who are given such news, and for people who are victims of rape and also for various other medical circumstances.I don't envy them that decision by the way.I personally think it's a hideous decision to have to make.

I am very grey on the topic of getting pregnant and not wanting it or it being a bad time to have a baby and it's a choice you have to make, so you should have access to abortion.I don't actually know how I feel about that. I appreciate every person's circumstances are different but at the same time......consequences and taking responsibility.....I don't know.

Two other things.Firstly many women who are now in their 50/60/70 telling their abortion stories....the problem was far wider than 'you can't have an abortion here'.It was societal condemnation of single mothers, families being 'shamed' by having an unwed mother, no support of income for these women as they couldn't work.....it was a much bigger picture than simply 'I got pregnant and it wasn't a good time to have a baby'.Their stories are extremely valid because not least because they show Irish society for what it was at the time, but they are not quite in the same context as someone who can't finish their degree if they have the baby. (As some stories are presented).

The second thing is that there's a lot of shouting in this debate but I rarely if ever hear anything of the after effects on women.who have an abortion.I hear about the physical after effects in the context of not being in yourhome country but the mental?Very little.And I know everyone reacts differently but I can't imagine there are so few living with the mental scars afterwards.It must have a profoundly deep effect on most women who do this, that they have to live with forever and that's rarely mentioned.

Toastytoes · 12-11-2017 09:42AM

shesty wrote: »

Interesting thread.....
The second thing is that there's a lot of shouting in this debate but I rarely if ever hear anything of the after effects on women.who have an abortion.I hear about the physical after effects in the context of not being in yourhome country but the mental?Very little.And I know everyone reacts differently but I can't imagine there are so few living with the mental scars afterwards.It must have a profoundly deep effect on most women who do this, that they have to live with forever and that's rarely mentioned.

Maybe it’s not always a negative effect though? Maybe there are women who made the decision that was right for them for whatever their reasons and are dealing with it ok. Are not deeply traumatized. Know that they made the best choice in the situation. Why do we want to assume the other is most likely?

Maybe we don’t hear it in this debate because it’s not relevant to the issue of all women having the right to make the choice that is best for them regardless of others having regretted it or struggled with it. And the right to access abortion services safely, timely and in their own country.

eviltwin · 12-11-2017 09:52AM

Only speaking for myself here. I have no regrets about my abortion nor does my husband. Not because we are cruel or unemotional but because we know we made the right choice. We'd already had one child so we knew the reality of parenting and the impact it has, we were both older so we didn't have the worry of our parents finding out or a pregnancy being a stigma, it was a decision we had space to make. I think the fact we are surrounded by good people who are supportive and non judgemental is a huge help too. It can't be easy to move on if you are constantly told you did a terrible thing.

am i bovvered · 12-11-2017 10:01AM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

I often wonder about my reasons for being here.

I don't know if I could actually fully defend my being alive-in that I don't believe I was actually wanted. My mother wanted two children, my dad only wanted one. And with good reason. He grew up in a large family, I'm talking double digits, and he did not the same for himself. Well, a number of miscarriages later, two doctors opinions (one telling them they would never have children, the other saying they would) and my brother was born.
And that is all my dad wanted-it was my mother who wanted two kids.

Well, cue my birth-and a lot of problems. Bronchitis at 6 months, Depression and anxiety for as far back as I can remember, and an emotionally immature individual who realized from an early age that parenting was not for him. (Animals I am terrible for, however, they boss me around and I let them.)
And never being close to my dad. Not like my brother anyway.

I often think did my parents make the right choice? And if they had chance to do it all over again, would they? I dunno, I often think they would have been better off without me, tbh. Especially if they had better access to information.

So a termination would have been better in the long run-times were tough financially, and I can't say I would have been any the wiser if I wasn't here.

Hi Rabble
Lots of children come into the world unplanned and initially unwanted, do not allow this to stop you living your life !!
Please stop reinforcing the image you have determined for yourself into the future. No more 'I am' regarding past behaviour. You sound young and your life is in your own hands, no excuses.
To help you with this make sure you are getting help with your issues as well as exercising and working.
You are worthy of life, you have life, live life

Conor Bourke · 12-11-2017 10:10AM

shesty wrote: »

I am very grey on the topic of getting pregnant and not wanting it or it being a bad time to have a baby and it's a choice you have to make, so you should have access to abortion.I don't actually know how I feel about that. I appreciate every person's circumstances are different but at the same time......consequences and taking responsibility.....I don't know.

One poster here told her story of having an abortion when she found herself pregnant with a fifth child that her and her husband simply couldn’t support. They were using contraceptives. In 2015, 54% of women who terminated their pregnancies in the UK were already mothers. 70% were married or had partners. Your post reads as though you believe the only people who seek abortions are wild and flighty young wans and something needs to put a halt to their gallop.

If you agree with abortion “in certain circumstances”, it is not abortion you have an issue with, it’s the type of sex women are having.

Mr. CooL ICE · 12-11-2017 10:14AM

I personally detest any argument against abortion that uses the word 'consequences'. They usually read like sex is a bad thing and probably should be punished

January · 12-11-2017 10:55AM

Cornelius Crow wrote: »

One poster here told her story of having an abortion when she found herself pregnant with a fifth child that her and her husband simply couldn’t support. They were using contraceptives. In 2015, 54% of women who terminated their pregnancies in the UK were already mothers. 70% were married or had partners. Your post reads as though you believe the only people who seek abortions are wild and flighty young wans and something needs to put a halt to their gallop.

If you agree with abortion “in certain circumstances”, it is not abortion you have an issue with, it’s the type of sex women are having.

Exactly. I have a responsibility to the children I already have.

_Kaiser_ · 12-11-2017 11:11AM

Ultimately, all this is about is a choice.

Some people will make that choice (for a variety of reasons and circumstances), and others won't.

For those who do, it'll mean not having to go to the UK (as is and will continue to be the case if necessary) and the stress, and cost of that.

For those who don't, there's no impact to them at all.

The only basis then for denying people the choice is because you feel entitled to tell other people what's right for them. A decision you personally won't have to live with either way.

Anything else is based on religious thought on the matter, or metaphysics.. Not a good enough argument when it comes to deciding whether someone (else) should bring a child into the world IMO

solodeogloria · 12-11-2017 11:31AM

lazybones32 wrote: »

Being one of those "moralistic foetus savers that will never understand", who is also a male, i will briefly share my story.

In the October bank holiday weekend 2003, i met my drunken mother in a bar where she decided to confess to me - and those within earshot - that when she learned she was pregnant with me, she made plans to abort me. My dad had to bribe her to not kill me by taking her shopping in Dublin for a weekend.

Thanks to my dad, i'm alive.

So yeah, that's my experience and i'm so glad to be alive. I'm sure the other babies would like to live too, but fcuk them, right?

Good morning!

The thing I've learned on this thread is that people will go great lengths to justify the unjustifiable.

At the end of the day - killing an unborn child is killing an unborn child. One can dance around the issues all day long but I can't see this as anything other than an inhumane act that people justify.

Wiping over 50 million unborn children off the face of the earth every year cannot be in my mind morally justifiable.

Some of the responses to this post have been the worst kind of mental gymnastics. We need to call a spade a spade.

There's nothing metaphysical about this. This is just cold hard fact.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

mohawk · 12-11-2017 11:42AM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

The thing I've learned on this thread is that people will go great lengths to justify the unjustifiable.

At the end of the day - killing an unborn child is killing an unborn child. One can dance around the issues all day long but I can't see this as anything other than an inhumane act that people justify.

Wiping over 50 million unborn children off the face of the earth every year cannot be in my mind morally justifiable.

Some of the responses to this post have been the worst kind of mental gymnastics. We need to call a spade a spade.

There's nothing metaphysical about this. This is just cold hard fact.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

This right here is why so many women who have had abortions keep it to themselves never telling anyone even their closest friends and family. Looking at the numbers of Irish women that have gone to the UK we probably all know someone who has made that journey.

GritBiscuit · 12-11-2017 11:57AM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Wiping over 50 million unborn children off the face of the earth every year cannot be in my mind morally justifiable.

If it were a case that it was merely the mass extinction of unborn children then the argument would be every bit as black and white as you are trying to paint it. Unfortunately the reality is somewhat different. It's a balancing act of inhumanity - forcing children who are victims of incest and abuse to carry pregnancies to term is also inhumane. Forcing couples who know their baby is not going to live to carry that child for 9 months and go through the birthing process even when they don't want to do that is inhumane, forcing rape victims to carry a pregnancy to term and not only have that one incident but their entire bodies and psyche permanently altered by their attacker is also inhumane.

Woman are not emotionless, irrelevant incubators for any and all potential life. They too have rights and have the right be treated humanely. The reason this is a contentious issue is precisely because it is one set of rights in direct contradiction of another. Neither option is without humanity, without suffering or without requiring their own special set of mental gymnastics and blinkered moral justification.

_Kaiser_ · 12-11-2017 12:00PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

The thing I've learned on this thread is that people will go great lengths to justify the unjustifiable.

At the end of the day - killing an unborn child is killing an unborn child. One can dance around the issues all day long but I can't see this as anything other than an inhumane act that people justify.

Wiping over 50 million unborn children off the face of the earth every year cannot be in my mind morally justifiable.

Some of the responses to this post have been the worst kind of mental gymnastics. We need to call a spade a spade.

There's nothing metaphysical about this. This is just cold hard fact.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Your whole argument is based on the concept of an "unborn child" - metaphysics

But regardless, why do you feel you have the right to make that decision for someone else, especially when you won't be dealing with the consequences either way. It also naively assumes that "it'll all be grand" if someone goes through with a pregnancy they don't want.

What this referendum should really ask is "do we want to continue to force women who have made the choice to get an abortion - for whatever reason - to have to go to the UK to get it?"

Because ultimately that's what it is. Even if things here remain unchanged, it's still going to happen anyway

Maybe a better question then is:

"Do we want to give Irish women the support and care they should be automatically entitled to as citizens of this country if they make this decision"

QueenRizla · 12-11-2017 12:27PM

I am not sure why anyone would share their experiences here. It is more like a justify your abortion thread. A post that stated women who don't regret it are unhinged got a load of thanks!

Foweva Awone · 12-11-2017 12:32PM

I had an early abortion in Holles Street as it was an unviable pregnancy that would have endangered my life, if allowed to continue. It wasn't exactly a pleasant experience, and I was offered absolutely no follow-up support (despite the fact that I was still suffering serious post-natal mental health problems following a previous pregnancy and birth.)

The thoughts of having to organise going to another country to do what had to be done sounds absolutely overwhelming. The circumstances are really irrelevant - whether the pregnancy is viable or unviable, whether it was planned or unplanned, whatever. And then coming back here and being unable to seek any support that might be needed makes things even worse.

A pregnancy in the early stages (i.e. first trimester) is just a theoretical concept - it is not a person. At that stage, society's responsibility is to the woman who's actually carrying the embryo - to her health, to her physical and mental wellbeing. Carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth to a baby is a life-altering experience and one that a woman should always have a choice in.

shesty · 12-11-2017 12:32PM

Cornelius Crow wrote: »

One poster here told her story of having an abortion when she found herself pregnant with a fifth child that her and her husband simply couldn’t support. They were using contraceptives. In 2015, 54% of women who terminated their pregnancies in the UK were already mothers. 70% were married or had partners. Your post reads as though you believe the only people who seek abortions are wild and flighty young wans and something needs to put a halt to their gallop.

If you agree with abortion “in certain circumstances”, it is not abortion you have an issue with, it’s the type of sex women are having.

This would be why I said I was grey on it.I know there are plenty of reasons why people would want to abort.But equally I know that you can't legislate for them all.You either make it available for everyone up to X weeks or you don't.You can't say 'well if you can prove you can't support a child then you can have one, otherwise you can't".I don't actually care what type of sex people are having.I think at the bottom of it I don't think I agree for free for all abortion but I don't see how you can make it work in any other way.Like I said, it's a grey area for me.Not everybody is either pro or against the argument, plenty of people see shades of grey in it.But you can't say anything for fear of being villified.And I don't think a referendum can be phrased to accommodate the shades of grey, which then leads me to wonder would I vote?I don't actually know at this point.

We’ve had abortions!/We haven't had abortions!

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