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We’ve had abortions!/We haven't had abortions!

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  • #152
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    blarrah wrote:
    It is, in its own way. It imparts wisdom, enabling you to see the reality of your mistakes, to see things beyond the immediate present and immediate self.


    Sadly most of what you have said cannot be attributed to a young person. Also time is linear, No going back. No offense but 'what ifs' will only torture you. Accept what you have now and look to the future.


  • #153
    Toastytoes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 435 ✭✭Toastytoes


    blarrah wrote: »
    Signed up just to comment on this thread, it touches home.

    Girlfriend and I were quite young, fell pregnant, disastrous set of circumstances at the time (in hindsight, not so much, but that's hindsight for you). Exams, start of careers, completely unstable financially etc.

    Its still a haze looking back at it, time dragged on and on, unsure what to do, stress coming from everywhere else as well. Before we knew it the baby was quite late in pregnancy (I honestly cant remember how many weeks, it was something "in the middle")

    Snap decision made, went to UK. Wasn't actually present in person in the room, but girlfriend told me everything, and let me tell you, its horrific. I clearly remember her saying that "bits of her (her, as in the baby) were cut up and sucked out. No need for the other details.

    That was many years ago, and although we still somewhat know each other (relationship ended), we have never once talked about it since. I can say hand on heart that at least 3 or 4 days a week I think about it, regret it in many ways. If we had continued and allowed our girl to be born it would have completely changed our lives, I have no doubt about that.

    Careers probably would have gone in absolutely different directions, would have been poorer in the immediate term, would have been very stressful at the immediate time etc. But being older now, I know that you get over problems, and I'm very sure we would have gotten over those problems too.

    I'm not in a relationship at the moment, neither is she. But having read this thread it just makes me think for the millionth time that I could, in an alternate reality, hear a laugh in the hall outside now and the girl would come skipping in, she'd be there and be my daughter. It really is dreadful to have that hang on you. I have no doubt whatsoever that my ex feels the same, if not much worse. I daren't ask, because what can be said now?

    That's my experience, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, either the stress of not knowing what to do, or the reality of having done it. I just cant imagine, nor have I ever heard, anyone ever regretting having a child as much as NOT having a child.

    I'm dreading the referendum next year, because its bad enough having these things live with you as well as having the whole thing shoved in your face every second through media, people knocking on doors and all that.

    Anyone who says that having an abortion doesn't bother them, it just comes across as a seriously suspect personality to me. Anyone who can do such a thing and just treat it like nothing is unhinged or something, in my opinion. But there are plenty of strange people out there.

    Anyone who says this is solely a womans choice is out of their mind. I cant think of a more selfish position to take. Its as plain as this, it involves the man, the woman, and the child. If all are present, then its a joint decision and there should be equal regard for all 3. Anything else is out of this world.

    Its very easy to see the women who hate men (or lets say have a serious "problem" with men) hijacking the debate and turning it into womens rights, or me, me, me. Equally so, its easy to see the men who operate on the other side of it, trying to dictate entirely what should happen from their perspective.

    Its a pity these "social warriors" will take control of the debate and be the loudest mouths. But what else was going to happen?!

    The whole abortion issue is a bandaid for a far more serious problem in society. Instead of preventing all of these preventable pregnancies from happening, we've just accepted the problem and moved onto the short-sighted "solution" of abortion.

    That's my two cents anyway. I wouldn't do it again if I could go back.

    Don’t assume your experience allows you to speak for others. Your circumstances, your decision, your regrets. You must have known or had some idea what a mid term abortion would entail and gone in to it with your eyes open. Not every abortion is a mid or late term one.


  • #154
    blarrah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 ✭blarrah


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Sadly most of what you have said cannot be attributed to a young person. Also time is linear, No going back. No offense but 'what ifs' will only torture you. Accept what you have now and look to the future.

    You're right, but equally unfortunately abortion is faced mostly by young people. And seeing as this seems to be the "me" generation you might as well be talking to a wall as trying to talk sense into anyone.

    I think the campaign will be run on the basis of "me" versus "others". "me" will win because selfishness always comes first (definition of it?)

    But I don't agree about disregarding the past, its a little too close to ignorance for me. I think a person should recognise and absorb the mistakes they make, be responsible for what you have and haven't done, that's what makes up your character. Its not a good thing to forget your past or to degrade/minimise it. A trade-off for that personal growth is the odd regret.


  • #155
    blarrah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 ✭blarrah


    Toastytoes wrote: »
    Don’t assume your experience allows you to speak for others. Your circumstances, your decision, your regrets. You must have known or had some idea what a mid term abortion would entail and gone in to it with your eyes open. Not every abortion is a mid or late term one.

    Can you speak for others? Are you allowed to have an opinion?

    If so, whats the difference with what I said?


  • #156
    Toastytoes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 435 ✭✭Toastytoes


    blarrah wrote: »
    Can you speak for others? Are you allowed to have an opinion?

    If so, whats the difference with what I said?

    “Anyone who says that having an abortion doesn't bother them, it just comes across as a seriously suspect personality to me. Anyone who can do such a thing and just treat it like nothing is unhinged or something, in my opinion. But there are plenty of strange people out there.”

    Wtf?! Who are you to judge them or their reactions?!! People deal with their decisions however they deal with them. You’ve clearly struggled with your decision in the aftermath. There are many people who say they made the decision that was best for them and don’t necessarily live a life plagued by constant thoughts and regrets about it.


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  • #157
    blarrah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 ✭blarrah


    Toastytoes wrote: »
    “Anyone who says that having an abortion doesn't bother them, it just comes across as a seriously suspect personality to me. Anyone who can do such a thing and just treat it like nothing is unhinged or something, in my opinion. But there are plenty of strange people out there.”

    Wtf?! Who are you to judge them or their reactions?!! People deal with their decisions however they deal with them. You’ve clearly struggled with your decision in the aftermath. There are many people who say they made the decision that was best for them and don’t necessarily live a life plagued by constant thoughts and regrets about it.

    Who am I to judge people? I'm a human being. You may have noticed for the entirety of your life that everyone judges everything. Just like you're judging me for judging others.

    You say that there are many people that don't have regrets, I say there are. Unless you're god and know everything.....its a moot point. The one difference is that I at least have provided something to talk about, you haven't.

    You could apply your "point" to absolutely everything. *insert absolutely anything as a topic here*......your response, "but not necessarily so!"


  • #158
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    blarrah wrote: »
    I've never heard anyone say anything similar. And I would imagine that everyone has bouts of fancy, "what if I did this, what if I did that"......but its probably just fanciful.

    I'd imagine that if those women had their children in front of them and they were given the choice to get rid of them and have a different (unknown) life, I cant imagine a mother REALLY going for the trade. Its a nice soundbite and something to muse over, but I think reality would be different.

    Another thing I'd say is a major factor (even for myself) is having other children. I don't have other children, and my tune might be different if I did. Its a really debase form of humanity, but sure maybe one is as good as another if you have them :/

    And fathers? Could you say the same thing about fathers?

    Just because you haven't heard anyone say it, doesn't really mean that nobody says it. The woman I worked with "bout of fancy" has lasted a great many years at this stage, and I doubt she's changed her mind.


  • #159
    blarrah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 ✭blarrah


    Ave Sodalis wrote: »
    And fathers? Could you say the same thing about fathers?

    Just because you haven't heard anyone say it, doesn't really mean that nobody says it. The woman I worked with "bout of fancy" has lasted a great many years at this stage, and I doubt she's changed her mind.

    Of course I realise that I just because I haven't heard it doesn't mean it isn't said.

    I still stand by what I said though, stick that womans kids in front of her and present her with the REALITY of the choice, and I don't think she'd change. I don't know who she is, she could be a horrible person, her children could be horrible, who knows?

    I'm judging it based on my experience of average normal people in average, normal circumstances. I cant judge it by extraordinary circumstances if I don't KNOW those circumstances, surely.


  • #160
    Toastytoes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 435 ✭✭Toastytoes


    blarrah wrote: »
    Who am I to judge people? I'm a human being. You may have noticed for the entirety of your life that everyone judges everything. Just like you're judging me for judging others.

    You say that there are many people that don't have regrets, I say there are. Unless you're god and know everything.....its a moot point. The one difference is that I at least have provided something to talk about, you haven't.

    You could apply your "point" to absolutely everything. *insert absolutely anything as a topic here*......your response, "but not necessarily so!"

    You clearly regret your decision. Don’t assume it’s the same for everyone.

    It’s a personal decision for every person faced with it and not everyone will have the same experience as you did.


  • #161
    blarrah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 ✭blarrah


    Toastytoes wrote: »
    You clearly regret your decision. Don’t assume it’s the same for everyone.

    It’s a personal decision for every person faced with it and not everyone will have the same experience as you did.

    I don't think you understood the point I made in my last comment. WHat youre saying is without merit. Or perhaps another way to say it; its so glaringly obvious it doesn't need to be said.

    "I think, based on my experiences, that a lot of people don't like drinking milk"......your response is "But it might not be that way for some other people"

    "I think, based on my experiences, that the GDP of Saudi Arabia will grow this year".......your response is, "But it might not".

    Youre not saying anything, its like you just want to be contrary for the purpose of being contrary.


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  • #162
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    blarrah wrote: »
    I'm judging it based on my experience of average normal people in average, normal circumstances. I cant judge it by extraordinary circumstances if I don't KNOW those circumstances, surely.

    I think it's probably more accurate to say your basing it on your individual experience.

    That doesn't automatically extrapolate across the entire population.


  • #163
    Toastytoes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 435 ✭✭Toastytoes


    blarrah wrote: »
    I don't think you understood the point I made in my last comment. WHat youre saying is without merit. Or perhaps another way to say it; its so glaringly obvious it doesn't need to be said.

    "I think, based on my experiences, that a lot of people don't like drinking milk"......your response is "But it might not be that way for some other people"

    "I think, based on my experiences, that the GDP of Saudi Arabia will grow this year".......your response is, "But it might not".

    Youre not saying anything, its like you just want to be contrary for the purpose of being contrary.

    You regret your decision and would change it if you could and you seem to want to assume it’s the same for everyone.


  • #164
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    blarrah wrote: »
    Of course I realise that I just because I haven't heard it doesn't mean it isn't said.

    I still stand by what I said though, stick that womans kids in front of her and present her with the REALITY of the choice, and I don't think she'd change. I don't know who she is, she could be a horrible person, her children could be horrible, who knows?

    I'm judging it based on my experience of average normal people in average, normal circumstances. I cant judge it by extraordinary circumstances if I don't KNOW those circumstances, surely.

    Actually, she's a lovely person and one I have a lot of time for. I still think she would have chosen to not have children if she could go back.
    blarrah wrote: »
    I don't think you understood the point I made in my last comment. WHat youre saying is without merit. Or perhaps another way to say it; its so glaringly obvious it doesn't need to be said.

    "I think, based on my experiences, that a lot of people don't like drinking milk"......your response is "But it might not be that way for some other people"

    "I think, based on my experiences, that the GDP of Saudi Arabia will grow this year".......your response is, "But it might not".

    Youre not saying anything, its like you just want to be contrary for the purpose of being contrary.

    To be fair, it's not that you've said that you think a lot of people do something based on your experience, because that's only just cropped up. It's that you originally made wildly sweeping generalisations and harsh, unfair comments about those not under your generalisations. Instead of just saying about how you went through an abortion with your girlfriend and regret it (which is perfectly reasonable), you had to try and demonize those who don't feel the same.


  • #165
    blarrah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 ✭blarrah


    Graham wrote: »
    I think it's probably more accurate to say your basing it on your individual experience.

    That doesn't automatically extrapolate across the entire population.

    What is it with the contrary attitude here? I mean, what do you base your opinions and thoughts on, your own life, or Pat Kenny's life?

    No it doesn't extrapolate across the entire population. Does your opinion do that, or are you just being contrary for the sake of it too?


  • #166
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    blarrah wrote: »
    What is it with the contrary attitude here? I mean, what do you base your opinions and thoughts on, your own life, or Pat Kenny's life?

    No it doesn't extrapolate across the entire population. Does your opinion do that, or are you just being contrary for the sake of it too?

    I get that you have regrets, as others have said that's understandable. What's being pointed out is you can't assume that means anyone else in similar circumstances feels as you do.


  • #167
    Toastytoes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 435 ✭✭Toastytoes


    blarrah wrote: »
    What is it with the contrary attitude here? I mean, what do you base your opinions and thoughts on, your own life, or Pat Kenny's life?

    No it doesn't extrapolate across the entire population. Does your opinion do that, or are you just being contrary for the sake of it too?

    Are you just going to call everyone contrary?!

    Just because not everyone shares your views? Can you come up with a better argument or point than that.


  • #168
    blarrah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 ✭blarrah


    Toastytoes wrote: »
    You regret your decision and would change it if you could and you seem to want to assume it’s the same for everyone.

    When you use the word "seem" it means that youre extrapolating the bit of information I have provided, applied your own interpretation to it, and voila, you've made a judgement on me. Do you feel bad about it, the way you'd like me to feel bad about it?

    Here it is in a nutshell. Having gone through the entire process as much as I could have, I am left with the very real conclusion that people should be extremely careful about the choices they make, because it is definite and final.....and I am living proof (and I am confident it is the same for my ex) that it can be a very regretful thing.

    You don't need to state for the third time that it might be different for everyone else. Of course it might be. But that's not my experience and this is my opinion and I believe it could well apply to many people.

    I cant provide statistics on the regret-level of the population of Ireland for those who have gone through abortion.

    But neither can you.


  • #169
    blarrah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 ✭blarrah


    Graham wrote: »
    I get that you have regrets, as others have said that's understandable. What's being pointed out is you can't assume that means anyone else in similar circumstances feels as you do.

    But I most certainly CAN assume it. I cant assume it for everyone, but I definitely can for SOME people.

    Why can I not assume it? Are we all supposed to be unthinking goons that cant form an opinion? Not the least of which based on our own lives?

    Why not just lock yourself in a box the rest of your life, you might get an idea one day? Just think about the logical conclusion of what youre saying.


  • #170
    blarrah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 ✭blarrah


    Toastytoes wrote: »
    Are you just going to call everyone contrary?!

    Just because not everyone shares your views? Can you come up with a better argument or point than that.

    Go back to one of the previous posts I made to you. Quote it, try to contradict it if you can.

    You have basically said the exact same thing 3 or 4 times in a row, haven't replied to what I said, and now somehow youre trying to miraculously turn this into ME not having a point.


  • #171
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    blarrah wrote: »
    But I most certainly CAN assume it. I cant assume it for everyone, but I definitely can for SOME people.

    Why can I not assume it? Are we all supposed to be unthinking goons that cant form an opinion? Not the least of which based on our own lives?

    Why not just lock yourself in a box the rest of your life, you might get an idea one day? Just think about the logical conclusion of what youre saying.

    You appear to have come around to agree with the last few posters so I don't think there's any need for the snarkiness.


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  • #172
    Toastytoes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 435 ✭✭Toastytoes


    blarrah wrote: »
    Go back to one of the previous posts I made to you. Quote it, try to contradict it if you can.

    You have basically said the exact same thing 3 or 4 times in a row, haven't replied to what I said, and now somehow youre trying to miraculously turn this into ME not having a point.

    Because you are ignoring all opinions except your own and resorting to calling people contrary.


  • #173
    blarrah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 ✭blarrah


    Graham wrote: »
    You appear to have come around to agree with the last few posters so I don't think there's any need for the snarkiness.

    If that's what you call agreeing, so be it.

    I'll have to remember that the next time I'm in a debate about absolutely anything under the sun......"but it might not be!"

    My problem with all those posts is that they say nothing, its vapid, thin-air. Can you imagine trying to have a conversation with someone and all they did was state a negative of what you just said, with nothing else added? Yeah its irritable.


  • #174
    blarrah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 ✭blarrah


    Toastytoes wrote: »
    Because you are ignoring all opinions except your own and resorting to calling people contrary.

    You are either a master troll, or something....else.

    Seeing as you refuse to comment on my actual words, maybe you could state your opinion?

    Let me guess.......it might be a different experience for someone else? Is that it, did I pick it up correctly from the first 5 times you said it?

    How on earth you seem to think you're on the up-side of this "argument" is baffling. Goodnight everyone.


  • #175
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #176
    Toastytoes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 435 ✭✭Toastytoes


    blarrah wrote: »
    You are either a master troll, or something....else.

    Seeing as you refuse to comment on my actual words, maybe you could state your opinion?

    Let me guess.......it might be a different experience for someone else? Is that it, did I pick it up correctly from the first 5 times you said it?

    How on earth you seem to think you're on the up-side of this "argument" is baffling. Goodnight everyone.

    You come across as very immature and I’m not surprised you have struggled to deal with such a hugely important decision as the one you made. Genuinely, I’d recommend you look into getting some kind of support to help you come to terms with it.


  • #177
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    blarrah wrote:
    But I don't agree about disregarding the past, its a little too close to ignorance for me. I think a person should recognise and absorb the mistakes they make, be responsible for what you have and haven't done, that's what makes up your character. Its not a good thing to forget your past or to degrade/minimise it. A trade-off for that personal growth is the odd regret.


    My past is not that not far back that I can't remember the terror of the choices made. At the time they seemed the best course of action. It's pointless questioning them.


  • #178
    Rumpy Pumpy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,048 ✭✭✭Rumpy Pumpy


    Permabear, your posts have become very creepy recently. Creepy isn’t cool. You try too hard.


  • #179
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,778 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    So you made a choice that worked for you. Don't make that choice for everyone.


  • #180
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,778 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »
    Your posts have become very creepy recently. Creepy isn’t cool. You try too hard.

    It's not like there aren't umpteen threads about this that he could have posted in.
    Edit: Thread merge :)


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  • #181
    blarrah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 ✭blarrah


    Toastytoes wrote: »
    You come across as very immature and I’m not surprised you have struggled to deal with such a hugely important decision as the one you made. Genuinely, I’d recommend you look into getting some kind of support to help you come to terms with it.

    I was just about to go to bed, saw that you made your best comment yet, and just had to reply! Sometimes you have to give into these little urges.

    So heres what I have to say; Take a mirror, look yourself in the eyes, and then repeat your own words back to yourself.

    You're a joke, you have avoided every single one of my comments, and have somehow come to the conclusion that it is I that am immature and cant deal with serious problems. Notwithstanding the admittedly childish (you need those moments!) return comment from me.....just read the last few pages of the exchange between us. You look ridiculous.

    And now I better get my 8 year old arse into bed :)

    (Try to get a good last word in now, something along the lines of "youre a poo poo head!" should be about your level, and that ones on the house)


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