Brexit discussion thread II

murphaph · 16-10-2017 12:51PM

Isn't it rather troubling that this massive amount of apparently lost wealth isn't making the headlines right across the UK media today? It's really head in the sand stuff to me. I'd imagine if Ireland faced a similar issue it would be the headline news for a week!

carrickbally · 16-10-2017 01:12PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Go into your setting and turn off notifications

Thank you very much.

Could you give a bit more about the steps to be taken.

Sorry to be such a pain.

Capt'n Midnight · 16-10-2017 01:25PM

Just in case people are still pointing at the FTSE as an example of Brexit going well.

http://www.bbc.com/news/live/business-41612603

Both the FTSE 100 and FTSE 250 have been powering ahead with the FTSE 100 hitting a record high last week.

But what's driving this stellar performance?

...
"Only 25% of FTSE 100 companies are driven by domestic sales, so what matters much more to the stock market is global activity and global growth," she says.

FrancieBrady · 16-10-2017 01:52PM

carrickbally wrote: »

Thank you very much.

Could you give a bit more about the steps to be taken.

Sorry to be such a pain.

There is a checkbox asking if you want to receive an email in your settings.
On a phone here so can't check exactly

carrickbally · 16-10-2017 02:47PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is a checkbox asking if you want to receive an email in your settings.
On a phone here so can't check exactly

Thank you so much.

I hope I have got it.

No they are still coming even though I turned it off at settings.

ancapailldorcha · 16-10-2017 04:00PM

carrickbally wrote: »

Thank you so much.

I hope I have got it.

No they are still coming even though I turned it off at settings.

Unfollow the thread and follow it again but click "No email notifications".

Nody · 16-10-2017 04:00PM

You know you'd think the government would have learned by now that telling porkies in the Brexit discussion is simply not going to work and they will be called out on it.

European officials have said that they were not certain when a dinner meeting between Theresa May and Jean Claude Juncker was going to happen even as late as Friday last week.

A spokesman for the European Commission said the idea had been “on the agenda for a long time”, but the date ahead of a critical European Council meeting was not confirmed until the last few days.

At the same time Ms May’s spokesperson told reporters the dinner had been in her diary for weeks, as Number 10 denied claims it was a last-minute attempt to break a deadlock in Brexit negotiations ahead of the Council.

Enzokk · 16-10-2017 06:28PM

Nody wrote: »

You know you'd think the government would have learned by now that telling porkies in the Brexit discussion is simply not going to work and they will be called out on it.

European officials have said that they were not certain when a dinner meeting between Theresa May and Jean Claude Juncker was going to happen even as late as Friday last week.

A spokesman for the European Commission said the idea had been “on the agenda for a long time”, but the date ahead of a critical European Council meeting was not confirmed until the last few days.

At the same time Ms May’s spokesperson told reporters the dinner had been in her diary for weeks, as Number 10 denied claims it was a last-minute attempt to break a deadlock in Brexit negotiations ahead of the Council.

Somehow I think had the negotiations been able to move on to trade Theresa May would not have bothered with this meeting. I see in the same story that Boris may be a little delusional and it seems that he is one of those that thinks it has all been a game so far but now is the time for the serious negotiations to begin.

Arriving for a meeting of EU foreign affairs ministers in Luxembourg, Mr Johnson said: “We think in the UK that it's time to get on with these negotiations.

“It's ready for the great ship to go down the slipway and on to the open sea and for us to start some serious conversations about the future and the new relationship.”

A Little Pony · 16-10-2017 06:30PM

carrickbally wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

I would cut one of my legs off to get out of the EU. I don't care how it happens, just get out as quickly as possible.

That sums up better than most the basis for Brexit.

That sums up the basis for the tearing up of the treaty the UK signed with nearly thirty other European democracies.

That also sums up the basis for the tearing up of the Good Friday Agreement the UK signed with Ireland.

It also sums up the basis of the UK's declaring economic war on the rest of Europe and especially on this former colony.

Irrational, emotional racism.

Racism? Laughable. Nothing racist about it. It's about respecting democracy and what the people voted for as you would with any legitimate democratic vote.

Enzokk · 16-10-2017 06:35PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Racism? Laughable. Nothing racist about it. It's about respecting democracy and what the people voted for as you would with any legitimate democratic vote.

Seems to me it is convenient for Northern Ireland to decide when it is British or not. By all means follow the vote for the whole of the UK, but why not follow the rest of the UK to allow same sex marriage?

A Little Pony · 16-10-2017 06:40PM

Enzokk wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Racism? Laughable. Nothing racist about it. It's about respecting democracy and what the people voted for as you would with any legitimate democratic vote.

Seems to me it is convenient for Northern Ireland to decide when it is British or not. By all means follow the vote for the whole of the UK, but why not follow the rest of the UK to allow same sex marriage?

That's a devolved issue, if we didn't have devolution Northern Ireland probably would have gay marriage. That's just the way it is.

mountaintop · 16-10-2017 06:52PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Racism? Laughable. Nothing racist about it. It's about respecting democracy and what the people voted for as you would with any legitimate democratic vote.

Once, when they looked across the ruins of a war ravaged Europe, people had a dream of a time when the continent would find peace and prosperity, when people would live as one, when all could strive to be the best they could be, when Europe would lead the way in science and education as a combination of great talents and minds. Miraculously, this was achieved. And what do people the likes of Little Pony say? That they'd rather cut off one of their legs than have anything to do with it. It is voices like his that that are the first to whisper into the ears of the dogs of war.
One can only shake their head in despair.

cml387 · 16-10-2017 06:53PM

An interesting exchange at last weeks PMQ's in the commons, maybe some missed it.

During an assault on the slow car crash that is Britain's new universal credit initiative by jeremy Corbyn, with May under pressure about people waiting penniless for six weeks for benefit, the speaker catches the eye of Ian Duncan Smith.
Now IDS is the creator of this great new policy, it's his creation.

Does he leap to the defence of his brainchild? No, he goes off on a rant about how money should be spent now on preparations for a hard Brexit.

The madness at the heart of government is now clear. Nothing else matters. This is now a battle for the Conservative party,subsuming all governance into the black hole of Brexit.

Are we now in a situation like the slowly boiled frog? As the temperature rises slowly the frog doesn't notice that it's going to be boiled alive?

steddyeddy · 16-10-2017 07:07PM

cml387 wrote: »

An interesting exchange at last weeks PMQ's in the commons, maybe some missed it.

During an assault on the slow car crash that is Britain's new universal credit initiative by jeremy Corbyn, with May under pressure about people waiting penniless for six weeks for benefit, the speaker catches the eye of Ian Duncan Smith.
Now IDS is the creator of this great new policy, it's his creation.

Does he leap to the defence of his brainchild? No, he goes off on a rant about how money should be spent now on preparations for a hard Brexit.

The madness at the heart of government is now clear. Nothing else matters. This is now a battle for the Conservative party,subsuming all governance into the black hole of Brexit.

Are we now in a situation like the slowly boiled frog? As the temperature rises slowly the frog doesn't notice that it's going to be boiled alive?

I previously would have regarded the Conservatives as economically conservative. Lately they've represented the most loony economic and social policies that Britain has seen.

First Up · 16-10-2017 08:43PM

mountaintop wrote:

One can only shake their head in despair.

Nah; leave them to their demons. We have better things to be doing.

Nody · 16-10-2017 08:44PM

Saw this posted on another forum but thought it was to good to pass up; it was a response in a discussion on the 490 billion GBP figure and how it can be used as a get out of Brexit card (note this is a joke so don't take it to serious):

Don’t panic. Hammond can ask the IMF for a loan. IMF says the condition of the loan is to cancel Brexit. Brexit is cancelled, loan is repaid – and some wonder whether it is all just a game.

View · 16-10-2017 09:04PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

carrickbally wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

I would cut one of my legs off to get out of the EU. I don't care how it happens, just get out as quickly as possible.

That sums up better than most the basis for Brexit.

That sums up the basis for the tearing up of the treaty the UK signed with nearly thirty other European democracies.

That also sums up the basis for the tearing up of the Good Friday Agreement the UK signed with Ireland.

It also sums up the basis of the UK's declaring economic war on the rest of Europe and especially on this former colony.

Irrational, emotional racism.

Racism? Laughable. Nothing racist about it. It's about respecting democracy and what the people voted for as you would with any legitimate democratic vote.

It clearly is to do with racism.

One of primary reasons cited by Leave voters for voting Leave was immigration. So, clearly, Leave voters did have a problem with immigration. Indeed, it was no accident that Brexit proponents used immigration as a topic during the campaign, but rather it was a deliberate strategy by them intended to persuade people to back Brexit.

Only, it wasn’t a problem with immigration from non-EU countries since both before and after the referendum, the U.K. has handed out and continues to hand out visas to huge numbers of non-EU citizens every year and no Brexit politician has the slightest problem with it.

And, like it or not, if the voters who backed Brexit have a problem with EU citizens who immigrate to the U.K. and want to stop/restrain them, while they ignore the much large number of non-EU immigrants, then that clearly is racism.

First Up · 16-10-2017 09:15PM

View wrote:

And, like it or not, if the voters who backed Brexit have a problem with EU citizens who immigrate to the U.K. and want to stop/restrain them, while they ignore the much large number of non-EU immigrants, then that clearly is racism.

I don't think they ignore them. More likely they are too thick to realise that leaving the EU makes no difference to non-EU immigration.

Jim2007 · 16-10-2017 09:42PM

View wrote: »

And, like it or not, if the voters who backed Brexit have a problem with EU citizens who immigrate to the U.K. and want to stop/restrain them, while they ignore the much large number of non-EU immigrants, then that clearly is racism.

But there is a bit of a difference - EU citizens must be treated exactly as citizens, where as one guy but it no-EU people: 'know there place'

Jim2007 · 16-10-2017 09:50PM

Nody wrote: »

Saw this posted on another forum but thought it was to good to pass up; it was a response in a discussion on the 490 billion GBP figure and how it can be used as a get out of Brexit card (note this is a joke so don't take it to serious):

But this is also yet another example of the arrogance - the idea that they can simple cancel BREXIT. There is no provision what so ever to allow for this, other than UK jurists opinion which is centred mainly around their right to change their minds rather that a requirement by anyone in the EU accept their new vision... Who would they have to inform, what would be the procedure of it's acceptance - just the council of ministers, the parliament... and what prevents the ECJ from hear an appeal on it by say some BREXIT citizen...

Jim2007 · 16-10-2017 10:05PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Racism? Laughable. Nothing racist about it. It's about respecting democracy and what the people voted for as you would with any legitimate democratic vote.

But what did the people vote for? Britain has a sovereign parliament, that is how their democracy works, no matter how much you'd like it to be different.

TM asked for a mandate to execute BREXIT and did not get it. In stead the people returned a collection of MPs representing several flavours of BREXIT, but none with a sufficient majority to implement it without some kind of a coalition.

The PMs need to come up with some kind of a compromise or go back to the people, that is all they can do. Demanding they respect democracy and go implement something, when the people have not expressed a clear wish at the GE, is pointless because the people's vote was inconclusive.

FrancieBrady · 16-10-2017 10:11PM

Jim2007 wrote: »

But what did the people vote for? Britain has a sovereign parliament, that is how their democracy works, no matter how much you'd like it to be different.

TM asked for a mandate to execute BREXIT and did not get it. In stead the people returned a collection of MPs representing several flavours of BREXIT, but none with a sufficient majority to implement it without some kind of a coalition.

The PMs need to come up with some kind of a compromise or go back to the people, that is all they can do. Demanding they respect democracy and go implement something, when the people have not expressed a clear wish at the GE, is pointless because the people's vote was inconclusive.

Absolutely, if you cannot achieve a consensus you go back to the people. You don't pay bungs to try and bludgeon something through.

Convinced the people will get their properly informed (and boy do they know now) vote on this.

ancapailldorcha · 16-10-2017 10:20PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I previously would have regarded the Conservatives as economically conservative. Lately they've represented the most loony economic and social policies that Britain has seen.

With respect, I think that this is a very simplistic analysis of the Conservative party. In it's current form, the party is a coalition of classically liberal free marketeers who wish to limit the state as much as possible, socially conservative Christian democrats and one-nation Tories who believe in using the state to help the worst-off in society. Party policies tend to be a compromise between these groups much like Labour has its trade unionists, socialists, communists and market-liberal Blairite centrists.

Generally speaking, the modern incarnation of the Conservative party which we've come to know since David Cameron became leader is moderately socially liberal while also seeking to reduce state expenditure as part of a programme to close the government's deficit and cut down Britain's debt while achieving growth through free market economics, issues which would find some sympathy in the right or "Orange Book" wing of the Liberal Democrat party.

Junkyard Tom · 17-10-2017 02:13AM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

They did. There's a good thread on Twitter here explaining how the EU acts as a counterbalance to the US on such matters and how an 'independent' Britain might fare on its own. Here are the first two posts:

People saying #Bombardier is a warning about life after #Brexit: you are right. Let me explain. /1

What’s my qualification? In 1993-4 I was in the UK’s DTI covering the long-running GATT dispute between the EU & US over Airbus v Boeing. /2

European aerospace firm Airbus is to take a majority stake in Bombardier's C-Series jet project.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-41646795

European based multinational comes to the rescue of Bombardier. How will the DUP spin an 'independent' Britain being good for the north after this? Regardless, the DUP will navigate some sort of bizarre maze of 'logic' to underpin their 'British as Finchley' delusions.

murphaph · 17-10-2017 06:29AM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

With respect, I think that this is a very simplistic analysis of the Conservative party. In it's current form, the party is a coalition of classically liberal free marketeers who wish to limit the state as much as possible, socially conservative Christian democrats and one-nation Tories who believe in using the state to help the worst-off in society. Party policies tend to be a compromise between these groups much like Labour has its trade unionists, socialists, communists and market-liberal Blairite centrists.

Generally speaking, the modern incarnation of the Conservative party which we've come to know since David Cameron became leader is moderately socially liberal while also seeking to reduce state expenditure as part of a programme to close the government's deficit and cut down Britain's debt while achieving growth through free market economics, issues which would find some sympathy in the right or "Orange Book" wing of the Liberal Democrat party.

Yeah you have these quite disparate groups forming the 2 major parties. It's all borne out of FPTP. In any other western European democracy many Tories and Labour MPs would be in the same smaller party that better aligns with their convictions.

FPTP effectively railroads unnatural partners together to form at least 2 parties large enough to contest for a majority.

murphaph · 17-10-2017 06:35AM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

European aerospace firm Airbus is to take a majority stake in Bombardier's C-Series jet project.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-41646795

European based multinational comes to the rescue of Bombardier. How will the DUP spin an 'independent' Britain being good for the north after this? Regardless, the DUP will navigate some sort of bizarre maze of 'logic' to underpin their 'British as Finchley' delusions.

Maybe Airbus could be convinced to move the shorts plant to Dundalk in the event of a hard Brexit lol.

LeinsterDub · 17-10-2017 08:52AM

That £350m a week will pour into our NHS (Johnson) – until it doesn’t. That the UK will negotiate a trade pact with Angela Merkel in Berlin (David Davis) – until it turns out to be Michel Barnier in Brussels. But never mind, the deal with Brussels will be “one of the easiest in human history” (Liam Fox) – until it isn’t. That, even with no deal looking more and more likely, the government needs draw up no concrete plans, nor set aside any contingency funds (Philip Hammond). That nothing will change for Hungarian or Polish nationals in the UK (Daniel Hannan) – until they are used as human bargaining chips. That Britain can sign 40 trade deals the morning after leaving the European Union (Liam Fox)– all 40 of which Britain already has through the EU.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/17/blame-economic-experts-fantasy-politics-brexit-office-budget-responsibility

For the Pro Brexit folk the above is either misdirection, irrelevant or lies. For the Anti Brexit folk saying we told you so has gotten tedious and they have moved on to how bad will this slow motion car crash be.

murphaph · 17-10-2017 09:18AM

Even on this thread there is a marked quietness from the few people prepared to defend Brexit as it becomes increasingly indefensible. The fact the UK appears to be half a trillion pounds poorer than was thought up to last week has perhaps put a bit of a dampener on the whole going over the Brexit top with your chums.

Zubeneschamali · 17-10-2017 09:29AM

Lemming wrote: »

What's even more terrifying is that the UK hasn't even left yet.

Absolutely. Just last week the bad news was that Brexit would cost 400 billion by 2030. This weeks bad news: it already cost 490 billion.

They are so screwed.

Nody · 17-10-2017 09:41AM

murphaph wrote: »

Even on this thread there is a marked quietness from the few people prepared to defend Brexit as it becomes increasingly indefensible. The fact the UK appears to be half a trillion pounds poorer than was thought up to last week has perhaps put a bit of a dampener on the whole going over the Brexit top with your chums.

No what will really scare them is what will come in Q1 next year.

TheCityUK believes that 75,000 jobs and £8bn to £10bn in annual tax revenues are at risk if the UK crashes out in 2019 without a deal and has to fall back on World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules.

Once businesses start moving, there is no reverse gear. It is simply not efficient or economically viable to move operations twice." TheCityUK argues that, to avoid this scenario, an agreement must be reached by the first quarter of 2018 "at the latest".

Now they are a lobby group so likely to inflate but several banks have already flagged for this and even at half their numbers we're talking most of the money sent to EU on a yearly basis gone in one sector alone and the chance of a deal in Q1 2018 is long odds at best...

Brexit discussion thread II

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