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Back on the horse

24

Comments

  • #32
    youdipstick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭youdipstick


    damon5 wrote: »
    Thanks for that Venom,what do you think of IRISH OSIRIS recommendation,also the fact that its rechargable batt spares so solving the inbuilt battery concern being left high and dry when the power runs out,cheers..
    ,

    I have 2 x Pico's & they use 1 x 18650 battery which I have never taken out to charge,the have a brilliant in-built charger,you could always carry a spare 18650 battery in your pocket in case you need the change the battery out,so you have 2 ways of keeping your Pico active for a couple of days.

    Pico...

    http://www.thebestshop.eu/shop/vv-mods/739-eleaf-istick-pico-75w-express-kit.html

    Nautilus 2 & Nautilus Mini

    http://www.thebestshop.eu/shop/clearomizers/855-aspire-nautilus-2.html

    http://www.thebestshop.eu/shop/aspire-clearomizers/470-aspire-nautilus-mini.html

    Both tanks use the same coil...

    18650 battery...

    http://www.thebestshop.eu/shop/batteries/763-samsung-inr18650-30q-3000mah-15a-battery.html

    "IRISHVAPE" will get you 10% off...


  • #33
    damon5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 831 ✭✭✭damon5


    Thanks for info,ive a bit of homework to do so ....


  • #34
    damon5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 831 ✭✭✭damon5


    youdipstick wrote: »
    http://e-shop.ie/120-ml-80vg/20vg-e-liquid-/-e-juices/c40641

    http://e-shop.ie/20-mg-nicotine-booster-e-liquid/p928499c40670

    Wondering where do you get a flavour to mix up with this base and nic...


  • #35
    youdipstick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭youdipstick


    damon5 wrote: »
    Wondering where do you get a flavour to mix up with this base and nic...

    Doesn't need flavour,already in it,just add Nic...


  • #36
    youdipstick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭youdipstick


    damon5 wrote: »
    Thanks for info,ive a bit of homework to do so ....

    This might interest you,a member here is selling ready mixed PG/VG/Nic very cheap if you want to mix your own liquid,ideal for MTL vaping & the Nic is 12mg...

    Originally Posted by 125 Lime St View Post
    5 x 1 Liter Vape Base 50/50 VGPG 12mg/ml --- €30 €25 each

    4 x 1 Liter Vape Base VG (86.5%) 12mg/ml --- €30 €25 each

    expire date is 11/18


    Will need to be posted with parcel motel or anpost


    https://i.imgur.com/1Hvutf7.jpg


    Click here...http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=104897548#post104897548


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  • #37
    damon5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 831 ✭✭✭damon5


    youdipstick wrote: »
    This might interest you,a member here is selling ready mixed PG/VG/Nic very cheap if you want to mix your own liquid,ideal for MTL vaping & the Nic is 12mg...

    Originally Posted by 125 Lime St View Post
    5 x 1 Liter Vape Base 50/50 VGPG 12mg/ml --- €30 €25 each

    4 x 1 Liter Vape Base VG (86.5%) 12mg/ml --- €30 €25 each

    expire date is 11/18


    Will need to be posted with parcel motel or anpost


    https://i.imgur.com/1Hvutf7.jpg


    Click here...http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=104897548#post104897548

    Thanks for that its a shame the nic wasnt 18mg that im on at the moment instead of 12mg,what do you think would it be very noticable.The 50vg and 50pg mix is fine its what i,m on at the moment,how do we deal with the issue of flavour.I wonder how much it would cost to send a litre up to dublin,cheers.


  • #38
    youdipstick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭youdipstick


    damon5 wrote: »
    Thanks for that its a shame the nic wasnt 18mg that im on at the moment instead of 12mg,what do you think would it be very noticable.The 50vg and 50pg mix is fine its what i,m on at the moment,how do we deal with the issue of flavour.I wonder how much it would cost to send a litre up to dublin,cheers.

    I think he is in Dublin...

    You would use flavour concentrates with it,check these out http://picknmixdiy.com/index.php

    Click on all the different concentrates in the blue display,if you are interested in mixing with concentrates,come back to this thread...DIY Ejuice & ask any questions,plenty of us to help,others know these concentrates better than me...

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=104762406#post104762406


  • #39
    damon5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 831 ✭✭✭damon5


    Think i have the issue of being left high and dry sorted with the battery with this 0ne ..............Eleaf Istick 50 W with massive 4400 mah battery,supposed to last for days but will charge every alternate day,what do you,s think........The Melo 3 mini and Aspire Atlantis is supposed to be a very good choice but i see that it deals only with Very low ohms and i have a few 2.8s etc and i,m using them at the moment.My thinking has been the higher the ohms the more throat hit,better flavour etc but saw a couple of youtube vids using low ohms and was surprised at what i saw.Is there a tank that would suit and deal with the ohms right across the range low and high ....
    These two were recommended but are only low ohm...
    Package Contents:

    1 x Aspire Atlantis 2.0
    1 x 0.3ohm BVC atomizer head
    1 x 0.5ohm BVC atomizer head
    1 x Drip tip



    Melo 3 mini
    1 x Melo III Atomizer (0.3Ω EC Head Pre-Installed)
    1 x 0.5Ω EC Head


  • #40
    damon5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 831 ✭✭✭damon5


    IRISH OS1R1S wrote: »
    Eleaf Pico kit €55. Fantastic mod and the Melo 3 2ml tank is great for mouth to lung vapers using 1.2 or 1.8 ohm coils. Buy a Samsung 30Q battery for it and you got 3000mah. If you order from fasttech you can get the 4ml tank version, but slow delivery.

    http://ecigarettesworld.ie/mods/1435-eleaf-istick-pico-75w-kit.html#

    Was reading back in posts and you mentioned the melo3 using 1.2 or 1.8 ohm coils,searching on the web and came across this which differs .........Melo 3 mini
    1 x Melo III Atomizer (0.3Ω EC Head Pre-Installed)
    1 x 0.5Ω EC Head ............pls make allowance for a newbie eager to learn....


  • #41
    IRISH OS1R1S
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 420 ✭✭IRISH OS1R1S


    damon5 wrote: »
    Was reading back in posts and you mentioned the melo3 using 1.2 or 1.8 ohm coils,searching on the web and came across this which differs .........Melo 3 mini
    1 x Melo III Atomizer (0.3Ω EC Head Pre-Installed)
    1 x 0.5Ω EC Head ............pls make allowance for a newbie eager to learn....

    Generally the lower the coil the more throat hit. For example a 0.7 coil will have a harder throat hit than a 1.2 coil.

    There are massive amounts of compatible coils that work in the melo 3. Here are just a few.

    0.7
    https://www.fasttech.com/product/6925000

    1.2
    https://www.fasttech.com/product/4063800

    1.8
    https://www.fasttech.com/product/2996000


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  • #42
    damon5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 831 ✭✭✭damon5


    IRISH OS1R1S wrote: »
    Generally the lower the coil the more throat hit. For example a 0.7 coil will have a harder throat hit than a 1.2 coil.

    There are massive amounts of compatible coils that work in the melo 3. Here are just a few.

    0.7
    https://www.fasttech.com/product/6925000

    1.2
    https://www.fasttech.com/product/4063800

    1.8
    https://www.fasttech.com/product/2996000

    A few words that gave a lot of education....Generally the lower the coil the more throat hit.....time to check out those links,cheers..


  • #43
    damon5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 831 ✭✭✭damon5


    Lads just posting this question again to get some imput if anyone has experience with one of these......Eleaf Istick 50 W with massive 4400 mah battery,supposed to last for days but i will charge every alternate day,........the 4400mah battery is enticeing power wise,cheers....


  • #44
    stuartmurphy87
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 628 ✭✭✭stuartmurphy87


    damon5 wrote: »
    Lads just posting this question again to get some imput if anyone has experience with one of these......Eleaf Istick 50 W with massive 4400 mah battery,supposed to last for days but i will charge every alternate day,........the 4400mah battery is enticeing power wise,cheers....

    Unless its stuck to your face all day non stop at 50w you should get couple of days out of that I would say.

    http://www.thebestshop.eu/shop/vv-mods/746-eleaf-ipower-80w-5000mah-tc-express-kit.html

    I had one of these in the early days and with my subtank at 35w with fair bit of use I could get 2 days out of it comfortably.

    All depends how much you use it so its bit hard for us to say really.

    That is a great mod though, big 5000mah battery and 80w. Will to temp control etc if you want that down the line too.


  • #45
    damon5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 831 ✭✭✭damon5


    stuartmurphy87 wrote: »
    Unless its stuck to your face all day non stop at 50w you should get couple of days out of that I would say.

    http://www.thebestshop.eu/shop/vv-mods/746-eleaf-ipower-80w-5000mah-tc-express-kit.html

    I had one of these in the early days and with my subtank at 35w with fair bit of use I could get 2 days out of it comfortably.

    All depends how much you use it so its bit hard for us to say really.

    That is a great mod though, big 5000mah battery and 80w. Will to temp control etc if you want that down the line too.

    Thanks that one has more watts,more mah and 13 euro cheaper than the 4400mah 50 watt i was looking at,i just have to figure out what coil,tank,ohms would suite,cheers...


  • #46
    stuartmurphy87
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 628 ✭✭✭stuartmurphy87


    damon5 wrote: »
    Thanks that one has more watts,more mah and 13 euro cheaper than the 4400mah 50 watt i was looking at,i just have to figure out what coil,tank,ohms would suite,cheers...

    No problem. Cant go wrong with the majority of tanks out there. Just make sure its no more than 22mm wide or it will overhang on that mod.

    Check out some reviews on youtube for some of the latest tanks.


  • #47
    damon5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 831 ✭✭✭damon5


    stuartmurphy87 wrote: »
    No problem. Cant go wrong with the majority of tanks out there. Just make sure its no more than 22mm wide or it will overhang on that mod.

    Check out some reviews on youtube for some of the latest tanks.

    Cheers Stuart heads spinning have looked at a good few youtube vids..


  • #48
    youdipstick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭youdipstick


    damon5 wrote: »
    Cheers Stuart heads spinning have looked at a good few youtube vids..

    Here Damon,a handy Nicotine calculator if you decide to buy 0mg liquids or mix,if you buy Nicotine shots from a vendor,there are 2 sizes,18mg & 20mg,these sizes are the concentrates of Nic...
    Not your preferred nic strength...

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057795766


  • #49
    damon5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 831 ✭✭✭damon5


    youdipstick wrote: »
    Here Damon,a handy Nicotine calculator if you decide to buy 0mg liquids or mix,if you buy Nicotine shots from a vendor,there are 2 sizes,18mg & 20mg,these sizes are the concentrates of Nic...
    Not your preferred nic strength...

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057795766

    Great stuff thanks....


  • #50
    damon5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 831 ✭✭✭damon5


    Doing a bit of rooting around in my bedroom and came across some bits and pieces from when i stopped vaping around 3 years ago,some unnamed parts of dissmantled tanks,atomised cartridges about 25 pf them,5 spare yokeys for vision vivi nova,kanthal d wire.20,silica wick 1mm and 2mm and 2 more vision vivi nova.Have to start sussing out the tanks and start using the long silver cartridge things but regarding the vivi nova theyre not the 2,3 or 4 model just the first from 3 odd years ago,wondering are they single coil which which i,m assuming they are but have heard of dual coil and i have a couple of questions.Firstly could i use them in these old novas,what differance do they make,i was thinking they would use more battery power,maybe give a better vape but maybe on the downside go through juice faster.If they came in say 0.7 1.6 and 1.8 out of 1,6 and 1.8 which would have the better MTL hit,hoping to pick up the eleaf 80w 5000mah this weekend too..below is the vivi nova type i have and are using now.

    http://www.vermillionriverejuice.com/Kanger-Protank_p_257.html


  • #51
    youdipstick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭youdipstick


    damon5 wrote: »
    Doing a bit of rooting around in my bedroom and came across some bits and pieces from when i stopped vaping around 3 years ago,some unnamed parts of dissmantled tanks,atomised cartridges about 25 pf them,5 spare yokeys for vision vivi nova,kanthal d wire.20,silica wick 1mm and 2mm and 2 more vision vivi nova.Have to start sussing out the tanks and start using the long silver cartridge things but regarding the vivi nova theyre not the 2,3 or 4 model just the first from 3 odd years ago,wondering are they single coil which which i,m assuming they are but have heard of dual coil and i have a couple of questions.Firstly could i use them in these old novas,what differance do they make,i was thinking they would use more battery power,maybe give a better vape but maybe on the downside go through juice faster.If they came in say 0.7 1.6 and 1.8 out of 1,6 and 1.8 which would have the better MTL hit,hoping to pick up the eleaf 80w 5000mah this weekend too..below is the vivi nova type i have and are using now.

    http://www.vermillionriverejuice.com/Kanger-Protank_p_257.html

    The Protanks were ok in it's day,a good MTL tank,I think I still have some & also coils for it.
    These coils can be dry burned because silica don't burn,I always had to remove one flavour wick which is shown in the video & sometimes I had to remove both of them because of dry hits,the airflow was a great design then,it would work with any mod,back then,volts was used,today's mods,I would run it at 10w to start with & work your way up to your sweet spot,eliquid needs to be thin for this tank,something like 70PG/30VG,any thicker,it will give you dry hits for sure.
    The silver cartridge you mentioned is called a cartomiser,you need to use a condom to fill it,that's what they were called in the day,it's the rubbery type protector on the carto that you use to fill the carto,lot of work but it worked.
    Today's tanks are far more superior,the wicking is excellent compared to yesterdays tanks & can use any ratio of PG/VG.
    Saying that,I still use iclear 30 with silica wick & they are great,never leaks & also the iclear 30s which have cotton,both are great for MTL but they can only be used on a mod which has a bottom airflow 510 connection.
    Regarding the Carto,dual & single coil,dual was always better but it did use loads of power because the old style mods were not strong enough for it,today's mods would laugh at it,the carto never used much juice,30ml would do me a week,I think I was using 3ml a day MTL with Pro Tanks & Nova's,even back then I had about a dozen mods with all different tanks including ego tanks,510 tanks & other type tanks which I can't remember now,was 810 connection,not sure now.
    I loved the old MTL drippers with a side flow 1mm air hole,makes me laugh thinking about it:D:D

    That's enough ranting from me,here is that old video (2013) about the Pro tank....Pbusardo....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg76IBEpVas


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  • #52
    damon5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 831 ✭✭✭damon5


    Yet again thanks for all the info,a couple of questions though, you wrote ......... These coils can be dry burned because silica don't burn....what does that mean?
    Also could i replace the silica wick with the 1mm or 2mm wick that i have and which would be better.Regarding the cartomizers i must start making use of the ones i have soon so will pop down to the chemist after lunch :eek:


  • #53
    youdipstick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭youdipstick


    damon5 wrote: »
    Yet again thanks for all the info,a couple of questions though, you wrote ......... These coils can be dry burned because silica don't burn....what does that mean?
    Also could i replace the silica wick with the 1mm or 2mm wick that i have and which would be better.Regarding the cartomizers i must start making use of the ones i have soon so will pop down to the chemist after lunch :eek:

    I'm not a 100% sure,it's been 4 or 5 years since I did one of those coils,I seem to remember that kanthal wire is wrapped around the silica,you would need to get the coil out if at all possible & feed cotton or your 1 or 2mm wick through the coil,silica wick is very difficult to feed through a coil,it's easier to make your own coil around the silica,I used a heavy gauge sewing needle along side of the silica to give the silica support & then do a spaced 4 or 5 wrap around around needle & silica,very hard to put into words,I'll see if I can dig up a YouTube video.

    The reason for dry burning is to burn off the old eliquid gunk that is left on the coil,this is done on a mod using the tank base only,the coil needs to be stripped of gaskets etc ,I'll find a video for you,found one,this shows you the pro tank coil being dry burned https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBgzeCTVOvY Did I do all that,must have been mad:D:D it was fun as well....
    This video also answers your first question about silica doesn't burn,slightest heat on cotton & there will be flames....

    I enjoy watching these old videos,they kept me off the smokes...


  • #54
    damon5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 831 ✭✭✭damon5


    Only got as far as the intro video Passages Malabu.com for addicts,shag the smokes and vaping,i must book in,it must have been a sign ;)


  • #55
    damon5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 831 ✭✭✭damon5


    Well the fear of all fears happened today while i was out vaping away,battery ran out and forget to bring a spare :mad: Lucky enough wasnt long untill i was home and changed the battery with a fully charged one which i had charged last night,threw another four batteries in the NITECORE intellicharger i4 to charge and nothing :mad:
    Swapped over the 13amp fuse from the kettle and tried another socket and the blue power on light came on for a second and then went off.Tried other sockets and nothing untill the last one i tried and blue light came on for a second then gone again,havent seen the blue light since.
    So here i am one charged battery in the mod and batteries i cant charge but there is a silver lining if the battery can hold out untill tommorrow afternoon,if so i will be the proud owner of an eleaf 80 watt 5000mah .....BUILT IN RECHARGABLE BATTERY....... but shag that charger anyway.


  • #56
    youdipstick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭youdipstick


    damon5 wrote: »
    Well the fear of all fears happened today while i was out vaping away,battery ran out and forget to bring a spare :mad: Lucky enough wasnt long untill i was home and changed the battery with a fully charged one which i had charged last night,threw another four batteries in the NITECORE intellicharger i4 to charge and nothing :mad:
    Swapped over the 13amp fuse from the kettle and tried another socket and the blue power on light came on for a second and then went off.Tried other sockets and nothing untill the last one i tried and blue light came on for a second then gone again,havent seen the blue light since.
    So here i am one charged battery in the mod and batteries i cant charge but there is a silver lining if the battery can hold out untill tommorrow afternoon,if so i will be the proud owner of an eleaf 80 watt 5000mah .....BUILT IN RECHARGABLE BATTERY....... but shag that charger anyway.

    The i4 is Nitecores new model,I'm using it myself,where & when did you buy it because there are fakes about,how old are your batteries & what mod are you using...


  • #57
    damon5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 831 ✭✭✭damon5


    The i4 from back when i stopped vaping about four years ago as well as the Efest batteries,strange thing how it charged perfectly the last few weeks though and most of the batteries were holding their change.
    Anyway picked up the Eleaf today and you,d want a degree to decipher the instructions and what the settings mean and then apply,was using volts on screen on the old one and i got the hang of regulating it but cant see volts on this but watts instead.The OH wants to get into vaping and mentioned about buying one of those pencil ones from the likes of Green smoke,smok green,VIP etc with throw away cartridges but i told her there a complete wast of money.She took a vape from the new addition and said...now thats what i want,its a nice draw and no airy sucky vape like from the older one,i said maybe an Ego which is a good jump up from the ones she had mentioned but she liked the wider style and shape of the one i just got:)
    Think i will maybe do a bit of searching for something like it and i think i saw a mini version of it,so what do you,s lads think for a beginner that will be pretty easy to master and charging it by mini usb because chargers wont even come into the equation ......


  • #58
    youdipstick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭youdipstick


    damon5 wrote: »
    The i4 from back when i stopped vaping about four years ago as well as the Efest batteries,strange thing how it charged perfectly the last few weeks though and most of the batteries were holding their change.
    Anyway picked up the Eleaf today and you,d want a degree to decipher the instructions and what the settings mean and then apply,was using volts on screen on the old one and i got the hang of regulating it but cant see volts on this but watts instead.The OH wants to get into vaping and mentioned about buying one of those pencil ones from the likes of Green smoke,smok green,VIP etc with throw away cartridges but i told her there a complete wast of money.She took a vape from the new addition and said...now thats what i want,its a nice draw and no airy sucky vape like from the older one,i said maybe an Ego which is a good jump up from the ones she had mentioned but she liked the wider style and shape of the one i just got:)
    Think i will maybe do a bit of searching for something like it and i think i saw a mini version of it,so what do you,s lads think for a beginner that will be pretty easy to master and charging it by mini usb because chargers wont even come into the equation ......

    Sorry,it's not the i4 charger I have,it's the D4 http://www.thebestshop.eu/shop/chargers/458-nitecore-digicharger-d4.html memory going:D
    Is it the eleaf ipower 80w that you have,moving from volts to watts is strange but you will find that watts controls the heat a lot more efficient,here is a video ....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5KWyHhb3Z8

    Those pen things are crap,her indoors should go for a Zelos kit,perfect for a new vapor,here's a link to a thread about it http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=104958749#post104958749

    All the links are on that thread,video's & where to buy it...


  • #59
    stuartmurphy87
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 628 ✭✭✭stuartmurphy87


    youdipstick wrote: »
    Sorry,it's not the i4 charger I have,it's the D4 http://www.thebestshop.eu/shop/chargers/458-nitecore-digicharger-d4.html memory going:D
    Is it the eleaf ipower 80w that you have,moving from volts to watts is strange but you will find that watts controls the heat a lot more efficient,here is a video ....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5KWyHhb3Z8

    Those pen things are crap,her indoors should go for a Zelos kit,perfect for a new vapor,here's a link to a thread about it http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=104958749#post104958749

    All the links are on that thread,video's & where to buy it...

    I think its that one he went for. I remember it being a quick button sequence to flip it to watts which is all i ever used on it.

    Will dig out my one when I get in and try figure out how it was done for him.


  • #60
    stuartmurphy87
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 628 ✭✭✭stuartmurphy87


    stuartmurphy87 wrote: »
    I think its that one he went for. I remember it being a quick button sequence to flip it to watts which is all i ever used on it.

    Will dig out my one when I get in and try figure out how it was done for him.

    Scratch that. Its variable wattage only as far as i can tell from google and messing around with my one here now.

    My first mod, the little 30watt i stick was variable voltage. Must have been thinking of it. Sorry.

    Better off in wattage anyway imo.


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  • #61
    damon5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 831 ✭✭✭damon5


    Yep going to go for the aspire zelos kit that has the nautilus2...Put the vivi nova on the eleaf 80 watt that i got yesterday and doing something wrong,as far as i can make out its on vw and the lcd panel is showing the word power that i can raise or lower and not in volts or watts.I,m using i think its a 2.9ohm atty is it in the vivi nova and have the power on 6.1,cant get a decent vape,its pretty tight and i start to get that hot burney feel in my throat.If i go lower its not as harsh as such but no way you could go higher..I,m thinking power on the screen means whats but i,m wodering if thats the way it is on this mod what would you have the power set for a 2.9 atty...sorry the watts for a 2.9 atty...

    P.S for some reason its not now showing power but watts at 6.1 ...
    PPS i was,nt getting a good vape with the nova on the eleaf,you had to really suck at it yet when i put it on the old segeli much better draw and nowhere as tight.Put it back on the eleaf and said to myself it has to be a lack of air intake while i,m trying to vape,i unscewed the nova just a bit and that was enough air intake to get a better vape.Is there anything out there that would allow me to have that bit of space but yet be tight enough to keep it all stable...


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