Should religious indoctrination of children be illegal?

beauf · 14-10-2017 01:44PM

Applies equally to parents though really.

Almost all of these threads come back to the main issue being getting a place in a school. That filtering should be not allowed in public schools.

Zebra3 · 14-10-2017 01:44PM

I'm atheist - indoctrination should not be illegal.

Says a lot about people that they have no issue with kids being told that they'll burn in hell for eternity for doing certain things even though there is absolutely no proof of hell existing.

They'll defend their right to intimidate and lie to kids until the very end.

beefburrito · 14-10-2017 01:53PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

Says a lot about people that they have no issue with kids being told that they'll burn in hell for eternity for doing certain things even though there is absolutely no proof of hell existing.

They'll defend their right to intimidate and lie to kids until the very end.

And Thor wept...

Those day's of burning in hell went out in the 70's

Actually I think Fr Jack from Fr Ted tried to bring back the fire and brimstone.

The Atheist has more emphasis on the hell rubbish.

They love talking about it.

beauf · 14-10-2017 01:58PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

...Says a lot about people that they have no issue with kids being told that they'll burn in hell for eternity for doing certain things even though there is absolutely no proof of hell existing.....

You'd think people would be so outraged they'd build their own schools everywhere. They didn't,so maybe they aren't that outraged. Also maybe not everyone has experienced this 1950s fire and brimstone and so isn't that worried about it. I don't think the census really gave us any insight into it either way.

eviltwin · 14-10-2017 01:58PM

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should be illegal.

beefburrito wrote: »

And Thor wept...

Those day's of burning in hell went out in the 70's

Actually I think Fr Jack from Fr Ted tried to bring back the fire and brimstone.

The Atheist has more emphasis on the hell rubbish.

They love talking about it.

But isn't burning in hell an essential part of the Catholic religion? Why would they leave that out?

server down · 14-10-2017 02:01PM

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should be illegal.

Zebra3 wrote: »

Says a lot about people that they have no issue with kids being told that they'll burn in hell for eternity for doing certain things even though there is absolutely no proof of hell existing.

They'll defend their right to intimidate and lie to kids until the very end.

Nobody is defending that. Hell wasn’t mentioned at my catholic school. We’re just arguing the Op’s point.

beauf · 14-10-2017 02:01PM

eviltwin wrote: »

But isn't burning in hell an essential part of the Catholic religion? Why would they leave that out?

I would have assumed NOT burning in hell would be objective.

eviltwin · 14-10-2017 02:03PM

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should be illegal.

beauf wrote: »

I would have assumed NOT burning in hell would be objective.

Well that's what I meant. Growing up I was told there were certain things that would doom you to hell, unless that has changed in the last 30 yrs why is it being left out?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 14-10-2017 02:09PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

Says a lot about people that they have no issue with kids being told that they'll burn in hell for eternity for doing certain things even though there is absolutely no proof of hell existing.

They'll defend their right to intimidate and lie to kids until the very end.

Nobody teaches children that they will burn in hell. Hell is the eternal separation from God. I agree there's as much proof, to many, of the existence of that God exists as there is of hell existing, but at least represent the doctrine as it is taught.

Grayson · 14-10-2017 02:21PM

eviltwin wrote: »

But isn't burning in hell an essential part of the Catholic religion? Why would they leave that out?

They've redefined hell. It's now an absence of god as opposed to a burning firey place.

They do still teach that gay people are unnatural and contraception is evil.

Edit to add: Eternal damnation and purgatory are still in the picture, just not the hell that they taught for century.

eviltwin · 14-10-2017 02:33PM

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should be illegal.

Grayson wrote: »

They've redefined hell. It's now an absence of god as opposed to a burning firey place.

They do still teach that gay people are unnatural and contraception is evil.

Edit to add: Eternal damnation and purgatory are still in the picture, just not the hell that they taught for century.

Ah okay, so does that mean there is no fire and eternal suffering or they are just giving us the watered down version? And what does "absence of God" mean?

AudreyHepburn · 14-10-2017 02:46PM

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should not be illegal.

Zebra3 wrote: »

Says a lot about people that they have no issue with kids being told that they'll burn in hell for eternity for doing certain things even though there is absolutely no proof of hell existing.

They'll defend their right to intimidate and lie to kids until the very end.

Except that that kind of fire and brimstone teaching no longer happens.

Be against religion and religious education all you want but at least be honest about what is taught.

beauf · 14-10-2017 02:49PM

Dunno. Do atheists believe in atheism. Or not believe in anything. Is believing in nothing a belief.

Also if an atheist asks a question about hell or god will they believe the answer, if not is there any point answering the question.

Will any of these questions be on the schools entrance exam....

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 14-10-2017 02:52PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Ah okay, so does that mean there is no fire and eternal suffering or they are just giving us the watered down version? And what does "absence of God" mean?

If you don't believe in the Christian God, then it obviously doesn't matter to you. To a believer the separation eternally from God, after life on this earth, is the ultimate suffering.

eviltwin · 14-10-2017 03:07PM

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should be illegal.

Bella Glamorous Pointless wrote: »

If you don't believe in the Christian God, then it obviously doesn't matter to you. To a believer the separation eternally from God, after life on this earth, is the ultimate suffering.

It doesn't matter to me at all but I find it interesting how the goalposts of Catholicism can change. Growing up we were taught about Limbo and told we would burn in the fires of hell if we committed a mortal sin. Now limbo no longer exists and hell is an absence of god. Its just strange how things that were once seen as fundamental can now be changed to make the faith more palatable.

MadDog76 · 14-10-2017 03:11PM

Pwindedd wrote: »

Agreed. I didn't answer the poll because of this. Whilst technically I'm an Atheist person, I don't identify as atheist. It's not a movement or a group in my eyes. It's simply just not believing in a god and having the freedom to do that and allow others to believe what they want. I do have these freedoms as an adult in Ireland I might add.

Our children should be afforded these same privileges

If ...

92% of schools in Ireland are Catholic.
78% of people in Ireland identify as Catholic

...Then You don't have to be a genius to see that there's some disparity there and it's growing every year.

So the majority are happy to continue as is then .......... the minority will just have to open their own schools and everybody's happy!

server down · 14-10-2017 03:38PM

I believe in some sort of God - indoctrination should be illegal.

eviltwin wrote: »

Ah okay, so does that mean there is no fire and eternal suffering or they are just giving us the watered down version? And what does "absence of God" mean?

Eh. Shouldn’t there be lots more knowledge of what the catholic schools are teaching if everybody is going to catholic schools.

14-10-2017 03:57PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

Says a lot about people that they have no issue with kids being told that they'll burn in hell for eternity for doing certain things even though there is absolutely no proof of hell existing.

Oh for fúck sake. Just how old are you, or like many of the Papist-haters disguised as "atheists" do you just take all your stereotypes about Irish Catholics from traditional British Protestantism?

There's a strong argument against RCC control of Irish schools, and posts like yours will never be able to make it because all you give are anti-Catholic stereotypes which bear no resemblance to reality in 2017.

Pwindedd · 14-10-2017 04:10PM

MadDog76 wrote: »

So the majority are happy to continue as is then .......... the minority will just have to open their own schools and everybody's happy!

Who says the majority are happy. My colleague at work is about to have both her children baptised just to get her kids in the local school. She doesn't believe in God any more than I do !

And your attitude of 'just open your own school' is unhelpful at best. I shouldn't need to. Education should be available to all children without having to set up your own school - surely you can see the ludicracy in your statement.
Around 50% of educate together schools places are taken by catholic children ? And around 30% of church of Ireland school pupils are Catholic ?
Why not enable Catholic schools do the same and accept all denominations then. There's no harm surely. Religion class to encompass all religions, After school classes for confirmation. Church on the weekends for celebrations and mass. Everyone in the community accepted for what and who they are.

beauf · 14-10-2017 04:17PM

server down wrote: »

Eh. Shouldn’t there be lots more knowledge of what the catholic schools are teaching if everybody is going to catholic schools.

Everyone isn't going to Catholic schools. Many places can opt out of religious classes.

If people want to find out read their kids books & copies, not ask strangers on the Internet.

uck51js9zml2yt · 14-10-2017 04:17PM

Pwindedd wrote: »

Who says the majority are happy. My colleague at work is about to have both her children baptised just to get her kids in the local school. She doesn't believe in God any more than I do !

And your attitude of 'just open your own school' is unhelpful at best. I shouldn't need to. Education should be available to all children without having to set up your own school - surely you can see the ludicracy in your statement.
Around 50% of educate together schools places are taken by catholic children ? And around 30% of church of Ireland school pupils are Catholic ?
Why not enable Catholic schools do the same and accept all denominations then. There's no harm surely. Religion class to encompass all religions, After school classes for confirmation. Church on the weekends for celebrations and mass. Everyone in the community accepted for what and who they are.

Just for balance, my son is in an RC school and was never baptised. He's also not doing religious education. His younger brother is following him next year. I'm also now on the board of management along with the parish priest.

Kind of nullifies the argument of "the all RC schools are bad" brigade.

beauf · 14-10-2017 04:35PM

Pwindedd wrote: »

....And your attitude of 'just open your own school' is unhelpful at best. I shouldn't need to. Education should be available to all children without having to set up your own school...

That's how many schools get created though.

The admission policies though is a bigger issue than just religion. Schools can change their policy to exclude your road and there's nothing you can do about it.

AFAIK all schools even private one receive state funding. Yet they are all allowed to have enrollment policy based on their ethos.
That ethos doesn't have to be about religion.

Pwindedd · 14-10-2017 04:38PM

Bentley Rhythmic Spokeswoman wrote: »

Just for balance, my son is in an RC school and was never baptised. He's also not doing religious education. His younger brother is following him next year. I'm also now on the board of management along with the parish priest.

Kind of nullifies the argument of "the all RC schools are bad" brigade.

I agree ! my daughter also was accepted and except for a few weeks around confirmation it never really affected her tbh. But a lot of schools still require certs to get in so people baptise under slight duress. A now irreversible process I believe. It's devisive and unnecessary I feel. School should be a welcoming place for learning and development. Religious ethos and education are not mutually incompatible so why insist on it ?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 14-10-2017 04:41PM

Pwindedd wrote: »

I agree ! my daughter also was accepted and except for a few weeks around confirmation it never really affected her tbh. But a lot of schools still require certs to get in so people baptise under slight duress. A now irreversible process I believe. It's devisive and unnecessary I feel. School should be a welcoming place for learning and development. Religious ethos and education are not mutually incompatible so why insist on it ?

Not one 'catholic' school around here looks for baptism certs and all have students from many faiths and none. This generalisation that all schools require children to be baptised is misleading.

The_Valeyard · 14-10-2017 04:46PM

Bella Glamorous Pointless wrote: »

Not one 'catholic' school around here looks for baptism certs and all have students from many faiths and none. This generalisation that all schools require children to be baptised is misleading.

And that rule is on the way out anyhow.

SafeSurfer · 14-10-2017 04:57PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

Says a lot about people that they have no issue with kids being told that they'll burn in hell for eternity for doing certain things even though there is absolutely no proof of hell existing.

They'll defend their right to intimidate and lie to kids until the very end.

Non religious people lie to kids too.

SafeSurfer · 14-10-2017 05:09PM

Pwindedd wrote: »

MadDog76 wrote: »

So the majority are happy to continue as is then .......... the minority will just have to open their own schools and everybody's happy!

Who says the majority are happy. My colleague at work is about to have both her children baptised just to get her kids in the local school. She doesn't believe in God any more than I do !

And your attitude of 'just open your own school' is unhelpful at best. I shouldn't need to. Education should be available to all children without having to set up your own school - surely you can see the ludicracy in your statement.
Around 50% of educate together schools places are taken by catholic children ? And around 30% of church of Ireland school pupils are Catholic ?
Why not enable Catholic schools do the same and accept all denominations then. There's no harm surely. Religion class to encompass all religions, After school classes for confirmation. Church on the weekends for celebrations and mass. Everyone in the community accepted for what and who they are.

Catholic schools do accept students of all denominations and none.

MadDog76 · 14-10-2017 05:39PM

Pwindedd wrote: »

Who says the majority are happy. My colleague at work is about to have both her children baptised just to get her kids in the local school. She doesn't believe in God any more than I do !

And your attitude of 'just open your own school' is unhelpful at best. I shouldn't need to. Education should be available to all children without having to set up your own school - surely you can see the ludicracy in your statement.
Around 50% of educate together schools places are taken by catholic children ? And around 30% of church of Ireland school pupils are Catholic ?
Why not enable Catholic schools do the same and accept all denominations then. There's no harm surely. Religion class to encompass all religions, After school classes for confirmation. Church on the weekends for celebrations and mass. Everyone in the community accepted for what and who they are.

Your information is out-dated ........... the Catholic Church owns the majority of school buildings, and the land which the schools are on, yet most of those schools do not require their students to be Baptised or to make their Communion/Confirmation or to attend any religious classes or to even be Catholic at all ............ if you're going to rant then at least be factually correct.

Permabear · 14-10-2017 06:36PM

This post has been deleted.

Pwindedd · 14-10-2017 06:39PM

MadDog76 wrote: »

Your information is out-dated ........... the Catholic Church owns the majority of school buildings, and the land which the schools are on, yet most of those schools do not require their students to be Baptised or to make their Communion/Confirmation or to attend any religious classes or to even be Catholic at all ............ if you're going to rant then at least be factually correct.

Who's ranting? I'm speaking from the experience I've heard from friends or colleagues. Some of whom are baptising their children to get school acceptance. I know not ALL schools require this. I have already stated my daughter went to a catholic school despite not being Catholic.

Should religious indoctrination of children be illegal?

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