Brexit discussion thread II

carrickbally · 13-10-2017 04:22PM

A little bit of history as a background from Ireland.

Brexit has torn up the treaty the UK signed with nearly thirty European democracies and has also torn up the Good Friday Agreement the UK signed with Ireland.

The latter has effectively reimposed the lack of free movement across the border in Ireland.

The sympathy for the British government is in short supply on this as it was in 1912 when the imperial parliament in London, which was then governing nearly quarter the population of the globe, itself created the border problem.

murphthesmurf · 13-10-2017 04:25PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I didn't have a vote. I do have an opinion on the vote and what is about to happen though.

Weren't you allowed to vote? I live here in Ireland and am not allowed to vote unless I buy the right for a few grand. Is it the same in UK? I always assumed anyone who was residentin the UK was entitled to vote.

Fratton Fred · 13-10-2017 04:26PM

carrickbally wrote: »

A little bit of history as a background from Ireland.

Brexit has torn up the treaty the UK signed with nearly thirty European democracies and has also torn up the Good Friday Agreement the UK signed with Ireland.

you can keep saying this as often as you like, it will never actually become the truth.

The UK has not "Torn Up" any agreements. It is seeking to legally and through due process exit from one, whilst the other is untouched.

johnnyskeleton · 13-10-2017 04:27PM

carrickbally wrote: »

A little bit of history as a background from Ireland.

Brexit has torn up the treaty the UK signed with nearly thirty European democracies and has also torn up the Good Friday Agreement the UK signed with Ireland.

The latter has effectively reimposed the lack of free movement across the border in Ireland.

The sympathy for the British government is in short supply on this as it was in 1912 when the imperial parliament in London, which was then governing nearly quarter the population of the globe, itself created the border problem.

Mod note:

Please engage with other posters rather than rephrasing your last post.

Gerry T · 13-10-2017 04:30PM

I don't agree people on here wish the UK some disaster, some might, but not all. The general concensus is the UK is damaging the EU, Ireland and more importantly itself.
So what was the reasons you voted for brexit. And how will things be better post brexit
Do you see the UK with better trade deals etc....

murphthesmurf · 13-10-2017 04:37PM

carrickbally wrote: »

A little bit of history as a background from Ireland.

Brexit has torn up the treaty the UK signed with nearly thirty European democracies and has also torn up the Good Friday Agreement the UK signed with Ireland.

The latter has effectively reimposed the lack of free movement across the border in Ireland.

The sympathy for the British government is in short supply on this as it was in 1912 when the imperial parliament in London, which was then governing nearly quarter the population of the globe, itself created the border problem.

My personal belief is that free movement between UK and Ireland will remain. You have to understand though that the people decided on Brexit, the government just has to carry it out. The people did not like being part of the EU, I don't believe anyone, even the rightest of right wing people want to see relations with Ireland suffer. The British like the Irish much more than the Irish like the British from my experience.
If you and a friend are in a football club together, and your friend decides that the club isn't for him anymore and he goes to play for another team. It means you are a man down and the club may feel betrayed. But do you stop being his friend? He just did what he believes is best for him.

devnull · 13-10-2017 04:42PM

murphthesmurf wrote: »

My personal belief is that free movement between UK and Ireland will remain.

But the problem with that is that it would require a back door to be left open to the UK via Ireland if that is the case and that is something that a lot of Brexiteers and also what a lot of the Tory party say cannot be allowed to happen since it will mean the UK will not be able to control all it's borders.

Unless they moderate their requests and allow the back door to be left open there will be no alternative but to use a policed border with checkpoints to check that people who are entering the UK from Ireland are not those who are using it to get around the fact they cannot enter the UK directly.

Many of the Brexiteers couldn't care less what happens to Northern Ireland or Ireland after they leave, a lot of them don't even see NI as part of the UK really.

Professor Moriarty · 13-10-2017 04:53PM

murphthesmurf wrote: »

My personal belief is that free movement between UK and Ireland will remain. You have to understand though that the people decided on Brexit, the government just has to carry it out. The people did not like being part of the EU, I don't believe anyone, even the rightest of right wing people want to see relations with Ireland suffer. The British like the Irish much more than the Irish like the British from my experience.
If you and a friend are in a football club together, and your friend decides that the club isn't for him anymore and he goes to play for another team. It means you are a man down and the club may feel betrayed. But do you stop being his friend? He just did what he believes is best for him.

Yeah. What if your friend is going to seriously damage your economy, endanger peace in your country and severely damage an institution that is fundamental to your wellbeing? This isn't football.

devnull · 13-10-2017 04:58PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Yeah. What if your friend is going to seriously damage your economy, endanger peace in your country and severely damage an institution that is fundamental to your wellbeing? This isn't football.

And if someone leaves their club for a new one do they start asking their previous club for some kind of help financially and to do deals with them in the same way that they did when they played for their previous club and then when they can't get their own way throw their toys out of the pram?

Or should the old club think, he's left, now we will focus on what is best for us?

Enzokk · 13-10-2017 05:01PM

devnull wrote: »

Just heard Phillip Hammond call the European Union 'the enemy' they really are not very good at this negotiations lark are they?

They just come across as a bunch of petulant spoiled children throwing their toys out of the pram because the EU won't give them what they want, despite the fact they were the ones who are leaving yet they somehow think they are owed big style by the club they have decided to leave and not pay the membership but still want the benefits.

If they are leaving the club then the EU are going to act in a way which benefits the 27 countries remaining the most, they couldn't and shouldn't care less about what happens to a country that has decided to leave, it's not their problem anymore, all their focus should be on is doing the best for the 27 and if the UK don't like that, that is their fault for leaving.

So he sees the EU as the enemy in the negotiations. I wonder what that does to Theresa May and how she sees things,

Theresa May wrote:

Achieving that partnership will require leadership and flexibility, not just from us but from our friends, the 27 nations of the EU.

'The ball is in your court now' - says both Theresa May to Brussels, and Brussels to Theresa May

I am struggling to know what the plan is here. It seems to me that the government keeps going from one drama to the next.

On the border, there has been numerous attempts to try and show solo that you cannot just get on with Brexit but maintain an open border. One of the cornerstones of the Brexit campaign, to control immigration, will have to be set aside if you want an open border with Ireland.

Professor Moriarty · 13-10-2017 05:01PM

devnull wrote: »

And if someone leaves their club for a new one do they start asking their previous club for some kind of help financially and to do deals with them in the same way that they did when they played for their previous club and then when they can't get their own way throw their toys out of the pram?

Or should the old club think, he's left, now we will focus on what is best for us?

If I were the team manager, I would be happy that the dressing room will be a lot easier to manage and I would emphasise that the ex-player is now an opposition player and needs to be treated as such.

Bigus · 13-10-2017 05:05PM

An hour ago I was talking to an Irish, reasonably heavy hitter in the London city property market , he was saying the wheels have come off the wagon already but it's just like here in 2006 , when the crash before the real 2008 crash started , but nobody mentions it until after they unload stuff , which is becoming harder and harder and will eventually collapse.
Also rentals near the banking quarter have gone from 30 viewings a day to 3 unsuitable clients in one month.

A Little Pony · 13-10-2017 05:07PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

It is something my fellow Brexiteers argue against or feel almost insulted if this is mentioned.

The problem with British nationalism in the northeast of Ireland is that it's a minority. The people in the north can vote themselves out of the UK into a unified Ireland back inside the EU where the majority wanted to remain.

I'm sure the English would be delighted to see the back of Ireland and I'd say the EU would be very supportive of a UI too.

British nationalism is certainly not some sort of minority in the UK as I described it, Brexiteers exist all over the UK.

carrickbally · 13-10-2017 05:16PM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Mod note:

Please engage with other posters rather than rephrasing your last post.

Are you suggesting that the imposition of the border in Ireland by the imperial parliament in London is irrelevant to the present Brexit debate?

There would be no large land border of 500 kms between the EU and the UK but for the imposition of the border in Ireland.

The imposition of the land border in Ireland was contrary to the imperial parliament's own Act giving self rule to the island of Ireland with a parliament in Dublin.

That was passed and signed into law by the monarch in 1914.

An amendment to impose a border was actually defeated.

It took till 1998 when the Good Friday Agreement was signed to settle that argument.

But Brexit has torn up the GFA.

You could not make it up.

A Little Pony · 13-10-2017 05:32PM

devnull wrote: »

Just heard Phillip Hammond call the European Union 'the enemy' they really are not very good at this negotiations lark are they?

They just come across as a bunch of petulant spoiled children throwing their toys out of the pram because the EU won't give them what they want, despite the fact they were the ones who are leaving yet they somehow think they are owed big style by the club they have decided to leave and not pay the membership but still want the benefits.

If they are leaving the club then the EU are going to act in a way which benefits the 27 countries remaining the most, they couldn't and shouldn't care less about what happens to a country that has decided to leave, it's not their problem anymore, all their focus should be on is doing the best for the 27 and if the UK don't like that, that is their fault for leaving.

They know it's going to be a no deal but still trying to come across as if a deal is possible when we know the EU doesn't want a deal.

murphthesmurf · 13-10-2017 05:43PM

Gerry T wrote: »

I don't agree people on here wish the UK I'll, some might, but not all. The general concensus is the UK is damaging the EU, Ireland and more importantly itself.
So what was the reasons you voted for brexit. And how will things be better post brexit
Do you see the UK with better trade deals etc....

I didn't vote as I don't live there anymore. I believe people who don't live in a country should not have a vote on that countries future. For me it's just wrong, I cannot understand the argument by some people in Ireland that those who have left to live elsewhere should still be able to vote in elections here.
As for trade deals only time will tell. As a whole I think the EU is a failure though. An unelected failure.

FrancieBrady · 13-10-2017 05:49PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

They know it's going to be a no deal but still trying to come across as if a deal is possible when we know the EU doesn't want a deal.

The EU (Which includes me) doesn't know what the 'deal' is. Brexiters should have known what was going to happen before they jumped like lemmings.
They didn't know, and further more were not told.
Fabulously ironic that they now blame the EU who are doing what everyone (except brexiteers) knew they would do.

Calina · 13-10-2017 05:49PM

murphthesmurf wrote: »

I didn't vote as I don't live there anymore. I believe people who don't live in a country should not have a vote on that countries future. For me it's just wrong, I cannot understand the argument by some people in Ireland that those who have left to live elsewhere should still be able to vote in elections here.
As for trade deals only time will tell. As a whole I think the EU is a failure though. An unelected failure.

What about the people who do live there, do pay tax there, but just happen to be EU (but not Ireland) citizens who did not have the right to vote in that referendum?

Calina · 13-10-2017 05:50PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

They know it's going to be a no deal but still trying to come across as if a deal is possible when we know the EU doesn't want a deal.

The EU wants an orderly exit. The UK appears to think an exit arrangement and a trade deal are the same thing.

This is why there will be no deal

murphthesmurf · 13-10-2017 06:02PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Yeah. What if your friend is going to seriously damage your economy, endanger peace in your country and severely damage an institution that is fundamental to your wellbeing? This isn't football.

The referendum was for the British people to vote on what thry believed to be best for Britain. Not what is best for the rest of the EU. If the club was a one man team then it wasn't a very good club.
I live here too remember, I have no intention of going anywhere else, Ireland is my home now. I have a young son who will spend his whole life here, and his children too. Any bad outcomes that come from Brexit on Ireland will affect me and him too. But I don't hold it against my fellow countrymen, they did what they thought was best. I don't expect them to do what is best for me over here. They felt the EU wasn't working so they left.

murphthesmurf · 13-10-2017 06:07PM

Calina wrote: »

What about the people who do live there, do pay tax there, but just happen to be EU (but not Ireland) citizens who did not have the right to vote in that referendum?

That is the same as me living in Ireland, I have no vote here and I pay taxes etc. If I went to your country would I automatically have the right to vote there? I doubt it, so why should you be different?

Calina · 13-10-2017 06:13PM

murphthesmurf wrote: »

That is the same as me living in Ireland, I have no vote here and I pay taxes etc. If I went to your country would I automatically have the right to vote there? I doubt it, so why should you be different?

If you are British, you have the right to vote in most Irish elections although not the referendums. That being said, at least Ireland has a) a written constitution and b) runs referendums properly so that ramifications of each outcome is clear before the votes take place.

I got the impression you lived in Ireland. Perhaps you are not fully aware of your rights in Ireland.

However, I voiced this comment because you suggested that people who didn't live in a country shouldn't have the right to vote (Although quite a few Brits had and did vote) but the corollary of that is that perhaps those who do, should

And because the UK does not have clear definitions on requirements for setting the voting population here, the government did have the discretion to extend the voting mandate if they wanted, and in fact did do for Scotland's independent referendum. IN fact that one was far better run than the Brexit one was.

Gerry T · 13-10-2017 06:18PM

murphthesmurf wrote:

My personal belief is that free movement between UK and Ireland will remain. You have to understand though that the people decided on Brexit, the government just has to carry it out. The people did not like being part of the EU, I don't believe anyone, even the rightest of right wing people want to see relations with Ireland suffer. The British like the Irish much more than the Irish like the British from my experience. If you and a friend are in a football club together, and your friend decides that the club isn't for him anymore and he goes to play for another team. It means you are a man down and the club may feel betrayed. But do you stop being his friend? He just did what he believes is best for him.

Yes but he keeps showing up sun morning expecting to play. Doesn't show for training, won't pay the club fees and won't pay the refs fee, in fact he says the ref no longer can tell him what to do. But it's ok because a mate of his or on the side line and he's going to ref the game for him. And after all that he takes the ball home with him and doesn't understand why you put out

murphaph · 13-10-2017 06:19PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

They know it's going to be a no deal but still trying to come across as if a deal is possible when we know the EU doesn't want a deal.

The EU will happily sign a FTA with the UK I'm quite sure. The UK however wants much more than this, ie a status akin to being a member of the single market....but they reject what every other country in the single market accepts, the supremacy of the ECJ. No ECJ, no single market.

steddyeddy · 13-10-2017 06:21PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

you can keep saying this as often as you like, it will never actually become the truth.

The UK has not "Torn Up" any agreements. It is seeking to legally and through due process exit from one, whilst the other is untouched.

Yes it has Fred. Article 1 of the Good Friday agreement states that rigorous impartially is central to the agreement. Colin Harvey, Professor of human rights at Queen's university states:

“‘Rigorous impartiality’… is central to the Good Friday agreement and to the British-Irish agreement (an international treaty between the UK and Ireland). The concept flows from the complex right of self-determination on which the current British-Irish constitutional compromise is based."

Rigorous impartiality is required yet Theresa May stated "she will never be neutral in regard to Northern Ireland" and then she formed an alliance with the political wing of loyalism.

In relation to Brexit we have a PM with no regard towards the other community in Northern Ireland forming an alliance with the DUP when issues such as the Irish border have to be sorted before trade arranged. Her loyalist leanings will damage the North and significantly damage Britain.

murphaph · 13-10-2017 06:25PM

murphthesmurf wrote: »

I didn't vote as I don't live there anymore. I believe people who don't live in a country should not have a vote on that countries future. For me it's just wrong, I cannot understand the argument by some people in Ireland that those who have left to live elsewhere should still be able to vote in elections here.
As for trade deals only time will tell. As a whole I think the EU is a failure though. An unelected failure.

A failure that has only delivered the longest period of sustained peace among its members in European history. Yeah it's a disaster altogether.

It is elected by the way. The EU is arguably more democratic than the individual member states.

Zubeneschamali · 13-10-2017 06:26PM

murphthesmurf wrote: »

The referendum was for the British people to vote on what thry believed to be best for Britain. Not what is best for the rest of the EU.

Absolutely. And per Article 50, they have a right and a mechanism to leave.

Sadly, they are wrong about what is best for Britain, and a generation of British people are about to learn that the hard way.

cml387 · 13-10-2017 06:43PM

As someone who has had an interest in British politics for over thirty years, what I see happening now scares me.

The best analogy I can think of is the state of Britain just after the Sheffield was sunk during the Falklands war.

There was a sudden realisation in government backbenches and the rightwing press that maybe things could go horribly wrong.

The result was a hunt for the "enemy within". This consisted of the BBC, moderate Tories, anyone who did not unquestionably back Britain.

They were "traitors".

Now we see the same thing happening. Philip Hammond is a traitor. The judges are traitors. The treasury are traitors.

At this point all logical thought goes out the window.

murphthesmurf · 13-10-2017 06:54PM

murphaph wrote: »

A failure that has only delivered the longest period of sustained peace among its members in European history. Yeah it's a disaster altogether.

It is elected by the way. The EU is arguably more democratic than the individual member states.

I don't agree with the idea that had their been no EU then European countries would have been at war over something. The last war between European countries was because the Germans invaded Poland and then the rest of Europe. Not just because they didn't get on. European countries have been at war or attacked other countries. The world changed after WW2, the danger has been from outside of Europe since. But I guess it's something we'll never know.

carrickbally · 13-10-2017 06:54PM

That neo-racist, patronising attitude ala Johnson to both Europe and Ireland still thrives in London and deserves no sympathy in the upcoming negotiations.

Brexit discussion thread II

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