Brexit discussion thread II

carrickbally · 11-10-2017 07:34PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

She's protected from the public by the fixed term of Parliament. The fact that she is very unlikely to remain PM after the next election also means she doesn't have to worry about the public outside her constituency. And she doesn't have to worry about the public in her constituency as she's in a very safe seat, it's been Tory since Eighteen Eighty Five.

However, within Parliament her majority is dependent on the DUP who haven't delivered any of the cash or protected the jobs, and they still have the problems of Stormount and Cash for Ash.

Within the party it takes 15% of the MPs to write a letter to the 1922 committee to trigger a leadership challenge. So far there's not quite enough MP's ready to do that, which probably has more to do with the unpredictability of a replacement than anything else.

It cannot be said too often that the UK constitution isn't written and for all practical purposes can be summed up in three words "Parliament is God"

Also she would have kept her majority if 401 voters in critical constituencies had supported her party.
Narrow margins like this , by the way, is one reason I'm strongly opposed to eVoting machines. Elections that are too close to call happen on a regular basis and with a physical ballot there is physical evidence.

Non verifiable e-voting is a recipe for the corruption of the election system in any democracy.

The blunt pencil and the bit of paper is there for all to see.

Non-verifiable e-voting is totally open to insider manipulation.

Sam Russell · 11-10-2017 07:44PM

carrickbally wrote: »

Non verifiable e-voting is a recipe for the corruption of the election system in any democracy.

The blunt pencil and the bit of paper is there for all to see.

Non-verifiable e-voting is totally open to insider manipulation.

eVoting is not what we should have gone for but eCounting.

What Bitain needs is the abandon First past the Post as it give power to minority parties. With STV
, the Tories would never get into power on their own, and so no Brexit.

LeinsterDub · 11-10-2017 10:31PM

EU youth orchestra to quit UK for Italy over Brexit
‘You can’t ask for EU funding and then not be in the EU,’ says chief executive of orchestra established in London in 1976

I'm sure in the grand scheme of things this is entirely unimportant but how many others 'entirely unimportant' projects like this exists that no one has considered before and even more worringly how many important projects will disappear from Britain soon.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/11/eu-youth-orchestra-to-quit-uk-for-italy-over-brexit

Capt'n Midnight · 11-10-2017 11:37PM

carrickbally wrote: »

Non verifiable e-voting is a recipe for the corruption of the election system in any democracy.

The blunt pencil and the bit of paper is there for all to see.

Non-verifiable e-voting is totally open to insider manipulation.

On the other hand verifiable e-voting means you can sell your vote. So the whole concept is badly broken.

Anyway back on topic.

The UK are going to spend a little preparing for Brexit
UK will spend what is needed to prepare for Brexit - No 10

A No 10 spokesman said £250m of new money had been allocated this year to prepare for leaving the EU, "including the possibility of a no-deal scenario".

Speaking at Prime Minister's Questions, Theresa May said "where money needs to be spent it will be spent".

Except that they aren't. Two hours earlier, the chancellor said.

"What I am not prepared to do is allocate funds to departments in advance of the need to spend," he added.

"Every pound we spend on contingency planning on a hard customs border is a pound we can't spend on the NHS, social care or education. I don't believe we should be in the business of making potentially nugatory expenditure until the very last moment when we need to do so."

And it's not a lot considering they'll be saving £350m a week.

prinzeugen · 12-10-2017 01:50AM

murphaph wrote: »

So Germany is not skint as you put it. It's chosen not to fund certain military hardware and spend its money on other things. Possibly other military hardware, possibly the hospital my son spent the last 2 nights in, recovering from pneumonia, which was quickly diagnosed by his doc (in Germany children go to paediatricians in the community, not to a GP) and for which treatment began immediately after his doc referred him to the nearby hospital (and could call the consultant as we made our way directly to paediatrics) No queues. Private room like a hotel in not 15 minutes from our house. Meanwhile the UK apparently has to leave the EU to properly fund the NHS. Or so the big red bus told us.

Anyway, nevermind, I'm sure Mr. Fox will be able to flog stuff on behalf of BAE to the world's most brutal dictatorships to make up the shortfall.

Go away and read the news and the facts.. The fact is we, as EU members can only wish of this in Ireland unless you have €€€

Peregrinus · 12-10-2017 02:40AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

Go away and read the news and the facts.. The fact is we, as EU members can only wish of this in Ireland unless you have €€€

You do realise that the words "as EU members" in your sentence above are completely redundant, don't you?

The Leave campaign made much - rather too much, as I think everybody now accepts - of diverting money paid by the UK to the EU and using it instead to increase spending on the NHS. But they could divert the money spend on anything to the NHS, if that is a greater priority; they don't need to leave the EU to do this. They could, for example, abandon their ludicrous nuclear "deterrent", and divert the money to the NHS. This would certainly do them less economic and reputational damage than Brexit.

If the Irish health service is inadequately funded or badly managed, it's not because we're in the EU. And exactly the same goes for the NHS in the UK.

prinzeugen · 12-10-2017 02:44AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

You do realise that the words "as EU members" in your sentence above are completely redundant, don't you?

The Leave campaign made much - rather too much, as I think everybody now accepts - of diverting money paid by the UK to the EU and using it instead to increase spending on the NHS. But they could divert the money spend on anything to the NHS, if that is a greater priority; they don't need to leave the EU to do this. They could, for example, abandon their ludicrous nuclear "deterrent", and divert the money to the NHS. This would certainly do them less economic and reputational damage than Brexit.

If the Irish health service is inadequately funded or badly managed, it's not because we're in the EU. And exactly the same goes for the NHS in the UK.

Abandon the nukes? Its the only reason that the UK is not part of Russia now.

But I am sure some would welcome Putin and poverty with open arms!

Peregrinus · 12-10-2017 02:48AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

Abandon the nukes? Its the only reason that the UK is not part of Russia now.

Are you just going to leave that hanging there, or are you going to explain this bizarre belief?

Nody · 12-10-2017 07:57AM

Rabo Bank are joining project fear I guess because they have calculated the cost of a hard brexit to £400 billion pounds to 2030. Hence £400 billion loss vs. £100 billion to the EU budget (estimated); well at least we have a price tag for the UK sovereignty.

Samaris · 12-10-2017 08:14AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

Abandon the nukes? Its the only reason that the UK is not part of Russia now.

But I am sure some would welcome Putin and poverty with open arms!

That and the width of Europe in the way.

Sam Russell · 12-10-2017 09:50AM

Samaris wrote: »

That and the width of Europe in the way.

I think the Russians would sneak around the back across the North Sea or the Atlantic.

They Need Nukes to get them to go the other way.

Professor Moriarty · 12-10-2017 10:18AM

Arlene Foster has stated that Ireland and the EU's preferred option of a sea border between Britain and Ireland is a definitive red line for the DUP. Ireland and the EU believe that a hard border is inevitable in the absence of a sea border. Wonder what David Davis will bring to the table now?

Zubeneschamali · 12-10-2017 11:39AM

Nody wrote: »

Rabo Bank are joining project fear I guess because they have calculated the cost of a hard brexit to £400 billion pounds to 2030.

They say this is larger than other estimates, but the UK govt estimated that GDP would be 5-10% lower than trend after 15 years, which (after EU contributions are recouped), taking the middle 7.5% figure, comes to 66 billion a year by 2032.

If that GDP loss is evenly spread, that would be an average 33 billion a year, every year. By 2030 that's 400 billion, same as Rabo, so their estimate does not look high to me.

And that is not the worst case govt. estimate of 10%.

In human terms, more worrying is the prospect that the hit to GDP will not be a simple, even drop in the slope of the growth graph: it may be a crash and then a prolonged recession, followed by an eventual bounce back to growth at or a bit below the Remain trend. This will be a lot more painful than an evenly spread reduction.

Professor Moriarty · 12-10-2017 11:50AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

They say this is larger than other estimates, but the UK govt estimated that GDP would be 5-10% lower than trend after 15 years, which (after EU contributions are recouped), taking the middle 7.5% figure, comes to 66 billion a year by 2032.

If that GDP loss is evenly spread, that would be an average 33 billion a year, every year. By 2030 that's 400 billion, same as Rabo, so their estimate does not look high to me.

And that is not the worst case govt. estimate of 10%.

In human terms, more worrying is the prospect that the hit to GDP will not be a simple, even drop in the slope of the growth graph: it may be a crash and then a prolonged recession, followed by an eventual bounce back to growth at or a bit below the Remain trend. This will be a lot more painful than an evenly spread reduction.

Such predictions reinforce the reality that the EU has the upper hand in negotiations by a country mile.

devnull · 12-10-2017 12:07PM

So still no real progress has been made as of today, coupled with May continuing to try and use EU Citizens as a bargaining chip this is not looking good, no matter how much Tories like Redwood come on TV saying the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs them.

The UK is sleepwalking into a complete disaster because of the arrogance of a group of leavers who have no idea what to do and expected the EU to bow to their every demand. Their negotiation style is pitiful and this could turn into one of the biggest acts of shooting yourself in the foot a country in the West has committed in a long time.

Zubeneschamali · 12-10-2017 12:18PM

devnull wrote: »

The UK is sleepwalking into a complete disaster because of the arrogance of a group of leavers who have no idea what to do and expected the EU to bow to their every demand. Their negotiation style is pitiful and this could turn into one of the biggest acts of shooting yourself in the foot a country in the West has committed in a long time.

Well, yes, maybe.

Or maybe they know they can't concede too much now because of domestic politics, and they are waiting for the last minute to push a deal through that will be unpopular at home. Hence the rumblings from the Tory party conference that the real talks will start after Christmas, and the kites from May about this "implementation period" of at least 2 years.

I think what will emerge is an "implementation period" which is just membership by another name, and a new Brexit date of 2021, and more talking.

Fratton Fred · 12-10-2017 12:23PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Well, yes, maybe.

Or maybe they know they can't concede too much now because of domestic politics, and they are waiting for the last minute to push a deal through that will be unpopular at home. Hence the rumblings from the Tory party conference that the real talks will start after Christmas, and the kites from May about this "implementation period" of at least 2 years.

I think what will emerge is an "implementation period" which is just membership by another name, and a new Brexit date of 2021, and more talking.

I think this is the most likely scenario. I would imagine the EU see it like that as well.

Enzokk · 12-10-2017 12:23PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Arlene Foster has stated that Ireland and the EU's preferred option of a sea border between Britain and Ireland is a definitive red line for the DUP. Ireland and the EU believe that a hard border is inevitable in the absence of a sea border. Wonder what David Davis will bring to the table now?

So now we have another red line to contend with. I guess we have to prepare for a hard border now. I don't see how any of the pronouncements will lead to anything but a border here on Ireland.

I do wonder, coming from a state that voted to stay in the EU, how the DUP can assert policies that are so against the people. I also wonder how she will keep the DUP relevant in the case of a hard Brexit and economic hardship in NI and it will all fall on her parties shoulders. She kept the Tories in power and she is going against what the people want in Northern Ireland. I suppose she will always have her voters that hate the other side, but those on the margins will surely start seeing the woods for the trees if things go wrong. This is one very high stakes gamble she has taken.

Thomas__ · 12-10-2017 01:53PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

devnull wrote: »

The UK is sleepwalking into a complete disaster because of the arrogance of a group of leavers who have no idea what to do and expected the EU to bow to their every demand. Their negotiation style is pitiful and this could turn into one of the biggest acts of shooting yourself in the foot a country in the West has committed in a long time.

Well, yes, maybe.

Or maybe they know they can't concede too much now because of domestic politics, and they are waiting for the last minute to push a deal through that will be unpopular at home. Hence the rumblings from the Tory party conference that the real talks will start after Christmas, and the kites from May about this "implementation period" of at least 2 years.

I think what will emerge is an "implementation period" which is just membership by another name, and a new Brexit date of 2021, and more talking.

I doubt that very much because the Brits are wasting their time and the EU negotiators will just allow that to continue until the deadline is reached and afterwards it means "so long and thanks for nothing". It takes an Agreement between the UK and the EU to even consider this transition period and given the UK govt is more likely to continue in their incompetence and "I want, I want, I want ..." attitude there´s no way that they´ll settle anything within the given time frame until their formal exit from the EUby the end of March 2019.

If there would be another, means new and not Tory UK govt in place, well, then maybe your suggestion will have some chances for a real prospect, but as long as Mrs May and her lot of Brexiters are in charge of the UK´s govt, there´s is no real chance for having anything accomplished except the crashing out of the EU by a hard Brexit which means no deal with the EU at all. The Tories may well try to betray and ly to the British People, but I seriously doubt that the EU will let allow herself to be led up the garden path by this bunch of apparently amateur politicians and poor negotiators. That´s because the damage on the EU´s reputation would be too serious and they cannot and will not allow to let this happen.

Thomas__ · 12-10-2017 01:58PM

Enzokk wrote: »

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Arlene Foster has stated that Ireland and the EU's preferred option of a sea border between Britain and Ireland is a definitive red line for the DUP. Ireland and the EU believe that a hard border is inevitable in the absence of a sea border. Wonder what David Davis will bring to the table now?

So now we have another red line to contend with. I guess we have to prepare for a hard border now. I don't see how any of the pronouncements will lead to anything but a border here on Ireland.

I do wonder, coming from a state that voted to stay in the EU, how the DUP can assert policies that are so against the people. I also wonder how she will keep the DUP relevant in the case of a hard Brexit and economic hardship in NI and it will all fall on her parties shoulders. She kept the Tories in power and she is going against what the people want in Northern Ireland. I suppose she will always have her voters that hate the other side, but those on the margins will surely start seeing the woods for the trees if things go wrong. This is one very high stakes gamble she has taken.

I have no illusions whatsoever that the diehard DUPers and those Orangemen who support them will still vote for this nasty party come what may as long as they can "stay British". These types of Unionist bigots are quite fine with a hard border on the Island of Ireland as Long as they don´t live along that border themselves, but even some of those who live close to it, wouldn´t give much of a fiddlers when not bothered by traffic congestions on the check points which have to be installed. Otherwise one can´t run a real hard border anyway.

Professor Moriarty · 12-10-2017 02:02PM

Enzokk wrote: »

So now we have another red line to contend with. I guess we have to prepare for a hard border now. I don't see how any of the pronouncements will lead to anything but a border here on Ireland.

I do wonder, coming from a state that voted to stay in the EU, how the DUP can assert policies that are so against the people. I also wonder how she will keep the DUP relevant in the case of a hard Brexit and economic hardship in NI and it will all fall on her parties shoulders. She kept the Tories in power and she is going against what the people want in Northern Ireland. I suppose she will always have her voters that hate the other side, but those on the margins will surely start seeing the woods for the trees if things go wrong. This is one very high stakes gamble she has taken.

Indeed. Plus if/when Corbyn takes over, Britain will be a very cold place for unionism. I think their deal with the Tories is unionism's swansong in terms of power and ascendancy. The Tories have no interest in unionism anymore other than their 10 votes in parliament as they are too busy fighting for relevance in England with an aging electorate and trying to manage an impossible Brexit.

I can see NI becoming an economic wasteland with renewed sectarian violence once Britain abandons it. Best case scenario in that case would be that the EU takes responsibility for its governance.

blanch152 · 12-10-2017 02:08PM

Thomas__ wrote: »

I have no illusions whatsoever that the diehard DUPers and those Orangemen who support them will still vote for this nasty party come what may as long as they can "stay British". These types of Unionist bigots are quite fine with a hard border on the Island of Ireland as Long as they don´t live along that border themselves, but even some of those who live close to it, wouldn´t give much of a fiddlers when not bothered by traffic congestions on the check points which have to be installed. Otherwise one can´t run a real hard border anyway.

If you are to put it another way, you would say that the DUP are prepared to put the principle of Britishness above their own prosperity.

That is little different to those nationalists in the South who want unity tomorrow who are putting that principle above their own prosperity.

I don't agree with either position but they are entitled to their view.

Thomas__ · 12-10-2017 02:16PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Thomas__ wrote: »

I have no illusions whatsoever that the diehard DUPers and those Orangemen who support them will still vote for this nasty party come what may as long as they can "stay British". These types of Unionist bigots are quite fine with a hard border on the Island of Ireland as Long as they don´t live along that border themselves, but even some of those who live close to it, wouldn´t give much of a fiddlers when not bothered by traffic congestions on the check points which have to be installed. Otherwise one can´t run a real hard border anyway.

If you are to put it another way, you would say that the DUP are prepared to put the principle of Britishness above their own prosperity.

That is little different to those nationalists in the South who want unity tomorrow who are putting that principle above their own prosperity.

I don't agree with either position but they are entitled to their view.

Being entitled to their own view is one thing, wracking the future prospects of a whole country is quite another. That is what the DUP is doing and that is the core of my argumentation. But anyway, maybe you can tell me what ever good has come from the DUP at all. I´d have to try very hard to find anything at all, because what has been achieved was more due to the engagement and care by SF and isn´t lasting on the initiative by the DUP.

They can have their own views, but they shouldn´t be allowed to help to bring more missery upon the whole of the people in NI for their silly sake of being loyal to the British govt who has no clue at all and is caught up in their selfish dreamland of a "mega prosperous past-Brexit UK".

Fratton Fred · 12-10-2017 02:17PM

Thomas__ wrote: »

I doubt that very much because the Brits are wasting their time and the EU negotiators will just allow that to continue until the deadline is reached and afterwards it means "so long and thanks for nothing". It takes an Agreement between the UK and the EU to even consider this transition period and given the UK govt is more likely to continue in their incompetence and "I want, I want, I want ..." attitude there´s no way that they´ll settle anything within the given time frame until their formal exit from the EUby the end of March 2019.

If there would be another, means new and not Tory UK govt in place, well, then maybe your suggestion will have some chances for a real prospect, but as long as Mrs May and her lot of Brexiters are in charge of the UK´s govt, there´s is no real chance for having anything accomplished except the crashing out of the EU by a hard Brexit which means no deal with the EU at all. The Tories may well try to betray and ly to the British People, but I seriously doubt that the EU will let allow herself to be led up the garden path by this bunch of apparently amateur politicians and poor negotiators. That´s because the damage on the EU´s reputation would be too serious and they cannot and will not allow to let this happen.

Are the details of the discussions in the public domain, or are you just guessing?

Anyways, here is a very good (as always) blog from Laura Kuenssberg http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-41598453

Not even Brexit's biggest cheerleader could claim the discussions in Brussels have been going well. And there are visible frustrations on both sides.
But before claiming this morning's drama means the whole thing is doomed there are a few things worth remembering.
At the very start of this whole process, the hope was that in October, the EU would agree to move on to the next phase of the talks, to talk about our future relationship. But for months it has been clear that the chances of that were essentially zero.
It is not, therefore, a surprise to hear Mr Barnier saying right now, he doesn't feel able to press the button on phase 2, however much he enjoyed the drama of saying so today.
Second, behind the scenes, although it has been slow, there has been some progress in the talks but officials in some areas have reached the end of the line until their political masters give them permission to move on

As she correctly states, none of this is a surprise, the eu always said October was ambitious.

This seems to be quite an important point as well, so it may be that the posturing is on both sides of the table

Mr Barnier is understood to have asked the EU 27 last Friday if he can start exploring transition for that reason, but Germany is resisting. So in this area, it is a possible, and would be a positive outcome for the UK, if at next week's political summit, Barnier asks the 27 for formal permission to talk transition.

Thomas__ · 12-10-2017 02:19PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Enzokk wrote: »

So now we have another red line to contend with. I guess we have to prepare for a hard border now. I don't see how any of the pronouncements will lead to anything but a border here on Ireland.

I do wonder, coming from a state that voted to stay in the EU, how the DUP can assert policies that are so against the people. I also wonder how she will keep the DUP relevant in the case of a hard Brexit and economic hardship in NI and it will all fall on her parties shoulders. She kept the Tories in power and she is going against what the people want in Northern Ireland. I suppose she will always have her voters that hate the other side, but those on the margins will surely start seeing the woods for the trees if things go wrong. This is one very high stakes gamble she has taken.

Indeed. Plus if/when Corbyn takes over, Britain will be a very cold place for unionism. I think their deal with the Tories is unionism's swansong in terms of power and ascendancy. The Tories have no interest in unionism anymore other than their 10 votes in parliament as they are too busy fighting for relevance in England with an aging electorate and trying to manage an impossible Brexit.

I can see NI becoming an economic wasteland with renewed sectarian violence once Britain abandons it. Best case scenario in that case would be that the EU takes responsibility for its governance.

That´s well put and I can only agree with you there. Just to add that the many of the DUPers refuse to realise that as they always have done so.

Thomas__ · 12-10-2017 02:26PM

It appears to be all back to square one:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1012/911823-brexit-talks/

The EU's chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier has said he will not be recommending to EU leaders at next week's summit that the talks can move to the future trading relationship between the UK and the European Union.

Speaking during a news conference ending the fifth round of Brexit negotiations in Brussels, Mr Barnier said there was still a deadlock on the three key issues, EU citizens’ rights, Britain's financial liabilities, and the border with Ireland.

This was the fifth round of negotiations, and with the cacophony of rancour and division in Westminster over Brexit almost audible in Brussels, few anticipated any breakthrough.

But this isn´t all so far:

With regards to Ireland, Mr Barnier said: "This week we advanced on the joint principles on the continuation of the Common Travel Area and I welcome this.

"We continued our intensive work on mapping out areas of cooperation that operate on a North South basis on the island of Ireland.

"There is more work to do in order to build a full picture of the challenges to North-South cooperation resulting from the UK, and therefore Northern Ireland, leaving the EU legal framework.

"This is necessary in order to identify the solutions.

"This week, we agreed that the six principles proposed by the EU in September would guide our work on protecting the Good Friday Agreement in all its dimensions."

The limbo situation is to be continued.

Thomas__ · 12-10-2017 02:31PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

carrickbally wrote: »

Non verifiable e-voting is a recipe for the corruption of the election system in any democracy.

The blunt pencil and the bit of paper is there for all to see.

Non-verifiable e-voting is totally open to insider manipulation.

eVoting is not what we should have gone for but eCounting.

What Bitain needs is the abandon First past the Post as it give power to minority parties. With STV
, the Tories would never get into power on their own, and so no Brexit.

The very reason for why they are so strong against any alteration of the electoral system cos that might cost them more seats and would give other political parties the chance to enter the Commons taking their seats. Just to imagine the UKIPers would had won more seats by another electoral system.

Sam Russell · 12-10-2017 02:57PM

Thomas__ wrote: »

The very reason for why they are so strong against any alteration of the electoral system cos that might cost them more seats and would give other political parties the chance to enter the Commons taking their seats. Just to imagine the UKIPers would had won more seats by another electoral system.

If the Tories or Labour were to agree to STV system of voting, both parties would immediately split since both are a combination of disparate ideologies. Labour have the Left Socialist side and the Workers Unions side. The Tories have the UKIP/Little Englanders and the 'One Nation' Tories.

If this were to happen, the UK would be subject to coalition governments for ever more.

Might be a shock to their system to have a bit of democracy in action. A real European solution to a British problem.

Zubeneschamali · 12-10-2017 03:42PM

Thomas__ wrote: »

Ithe Brits are wasting their time and the EU negotiators will just allow that to continue until the deadline is reached and afterwards it means "so long and thanks for nothing".

a) it is not in the EUs selfish interests to have the UK catch fire and sink into the ocean.

b) The EU is an old hand at kicking the can down the road rather than grasping the nettle.

View · 12-10-2017 03:53PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Thomas__ wrote: »

I have no illusions whatsoever that the diehard DUPers and those Orangemen who support them will still vote for this nasty party come what may as long as they can "stay British". These types of Unionist bigots are quite fine with a hard border on the Island of Ireland as Long as they don´t live along that border themselves, but even some of those who live close to it, wouldn´t give much of a fiddlers when not bothered by traffic congestions on the check points which have to be installed. Otherwise one can´t run a real hard border anyway.

If you are to put it another way, you would say that the DUP are prepared to put the principle of Britishness above their own prosperity.

That is little different to those nationalists in the South who want unity tomorrow who are putting that principle above their own prosperity.

I don't agree with either position but they are entitled to their view.

The criticism of the DUP here is unreasonable. Whether or not you agree with them, they both want to be and are British. They therefore are prepared to take whatever comes as part of that nation, be that good or ill.

And while many here would criticise them, their position is in many ways similar to that of the people here in (the Republic of) Ireland who equally are prepared to take whatever comes as part of our nation, be that good or ill. I doubt anyone would be impressed with, let's say, the people of Munster, if they suddenly announced they were abandoning being Irish and instead wanted to be part of France or Spain because they had concluded they'd be more prosperous by doing so. ðŸ˜€

Brexit discussion thread II

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