Brexit discussion thread II

prinzeugen · 10-10-2017 11:51PM

GalwayMark wrote: »

The days of London using threats to get its own way are consigned to the 19th century plus it doesn't belong in this day and age. It's time the British government acted like a modern democracy not some country holding another hostage like Putin's thugs bullying Ukraine to back away from Europe. Look if the Brexiteers want a total break they will have to give up NI or stay in the single market.

P.S. Why do you call our state 'Eire' and not say 'Ireland' instead? It's a pathetic colonial relic.

But you are OK with the EU wanting to turn Europe into a superstate? The last lad that had that idea was Hitler.

And you should really ask the folks of NI what they want before you come out with statements like that.

Most people in NI see themselves as Northern Irish.

Not British, Not Irish, but Northern Irish. On both sides of the wall.

But don't let facts get in the way of yet another anti British rant.

FrancieBrady · 10-10-2017 11:53PM

prinzeugen wrote: »

But you are OK with the EU wanting to turn Europe into a superstate? The last lad that had that idea was Hitler.

And you should really ask the folks of NI what they want before you come out with statements like that.

Most people in NI see themselves as Northern Irish.

Not British, Not Irish, but Northern Irish. On both sides of the wall.

But don't let facts get in the way of yet another anti British rant.

They were asked, they didn't want to leave the EU.

prinzeugen · 10-10-2017 11:53PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Historically the NI/border issues have damaged the UK more. I also don't believe that the UK will be an as important trading partner if its economically crippled by its own self harm.

Do you think they're sick enough to use peace as a bargaining chip?

So we are sick? Explain please?

prinzeugen · 10-10-2017 11:54PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They were asked, they didn't want to leave the EU.

The referendum was not about citizenship. It was EU, yes or no.

steddyeddy · 10-10-2017 11:55PM

prinzeugen wrote: »

But you are OK with the EU wanting to turn Europe into a superstate? The last lad that had that idea was Hitler.

And you should really ask the folks of NI what they want before you come out with statements like that.

Most people in NI see themselves as Northern Irish.

Not British, Not Irish, but Northern Irish. On both sides of the wall.

But don't let facts get in the way of yet another anti British rant.

Tell it to the people who voted Brexit. It's them that decided the fate of the Northern Irish people last june. The majority of people there voted remain. Did people care what they wanted then?

steddyeddy · 10-10-2017 11:55PM

prinzeugen wrote: »

The referendum was not about citizenship. It was EU, yes or no.

And they said yes to remain.

steddyeddy · 10-10-2017 11:57PM

prinzeugen wrote: »

So we are sick? Explain please?

Yes if people use Northern Irish peace as a bargaining chip they're sick.

prinzeugen · 10-10-2017 11:58PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yes if people use Northern Irish peace as a bargaining chip they're sick.

Only Dublin is doing it..

FrancieBrady · 10-10-2017 11:58PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yes if people use Northern Irish peace as a bargaining chip they're sick.

And criminally irresponsible

prinzeugen · 11-10-2017 12:00AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

And they said yes to remain.

Shows how much you know about Britex if you think that is all its about.

GalwayMark · 11-10-2017 12:04AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

But you are OK with the EU wanting to turn Europe into a superstate? The last lad that had that idea was Hitler.

And you should really ask the folks of NI what they want before you come out with statements like that.

Most people in NI see themselves as Northern Irish.

Not British, Not Irish, but Northern Irish. On both sides of the wall.

But don't let facts get in the way of yet another anti British rant.

I believe in a looser EU not that you wanna know but hey we're not going to indulge your self pity any longer.

Gerry T · 11-10-2017 12:12AM

solodeogloria wrote:

In a no deal scenario the contributions won't be paid. There are significant reasons to doubt if it is legally enforceable. These are contributions that Britain has chosen to give. Not a "bill" that they "owe".

Hi solo, I think this attitude is why the EU is taking such a hard line with the UK on first agreeing any settlement payment, border and movement of people.
Let's just pretend there's no future trade between the EU and UK. Border goes up and people stop moving. That leaves the settlement payment, as people have suggested the UK has on going liabilities such as pension payments. The EU today has financial commitments, on brexit day these are expected to be circa 724bn, the UK today are part of those commitments, they need to figure out how much they need to pay before leaving. Some of these commitments are in the form of legal binding contracts, others are future payments. So some the UK won't have to pay and others they will. This is the stage we are at.
So saying the acid test is "is the payment of these monies enforceable in a court" is another way of saying "yes we agreed to pay, but if we can wangle our way out, we won't pay" it's like buying a car by taking out a 10yr loan, after 5yrs saying to the bank"here's the keys, your car now, I'm not paying any future loan payments....sure I don't have use of the car, I'll only pay because I'm making very reasonable generous contributions, the banks being unreasonable, I'm being held to ransome as the bank won't give me a loan to buy a new car, I want the 0% interest rate.

The EU is presenting how they see the breakout of these liabilities, they keep asking the UK for their analysis, nothing forthcoming. There available to sit and negoatate but the UKs latest comments are their planning to just walk away, the EU won't discuss future trade.....

Can't you see the UK are going about this all wrong. If they walk, no payment, borders up, people having to move back home to their country of origin. There will be no EU trade deal. Then who's going to sign a deal with the UK, they'll just prove what we all ready are thinking. The UK can't be trusted.

Capt'n Midnight · 11-10-2017 12:19AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

But you are OK with the EU wanting to turn Europe into a superstate? The last lad that had that idea was Hitler.

Funny that. Anyway the EU has lots of vetos and voting arrangements to prevent one person gaining too much power.

On the UK side if May had a big majority she could have done anything she wanted.

Gerry T · 11-10-2017 12:32AM

prinzeugen wrote:

But you are OK with the EU wanting to turn Europe into a superstate? The last lad that had that idea was Hitler.

Hitler, that's what the EUs image is to you, bizarre. Are you sure it's not the UKs rampage all around the world. Making the "Empire" of smaller countries and regions around the world, like northern Ireland.

prinzeugen wrote:

And you should really ask the folks of NI what they want before you come out with statements like that.

Well NI did have a say, their voice was heard, 1,260,988 voted and 55.8% said remain in Europe.

prinzeugen wrote:

Most people in NI see themselves as Northern Irish.

That's reassuring, but what does that mean. If given a choice are you suggesting they would wand an independent Republic of NI.

prinzeugen wrote:

Not British, Not Irish, but Northern Irish. On both sides of the wall.

Well they can be Irish, or British or even both.

prinzeugen wrote:

But don't let facts get in the way of yet another anti British rant.

It wasn't an anti British rant.

prinzeugen · 11-10-2017 01:03AM

Gerry T wrote: »

Hitler, that's what the EUs image is to you, bizarre. Are you sure it's not the UKs rampage all around the world. Making the "Empire" of smaller countries and regions around the world, like northern Ireland.

Well NI did have a say, their voice was heard, 1,260,988 voted and 55.8% said remain in Europe.

That's reassuring, but what does that mean. If given a choice are you suggesting they would wand an independent Republic of NI.

Well they can be Irish, or British or even both.

It wasn't an anti British rant.

Empire.. The use of that word tells me its a waste of time.

And it was a self governing NI state, free of Dublin and London that both Republicans and unionist folks wanted.

It was the RTE/BBC joint live TV show.

prinzeugen · 11-10-2017 01:05AM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Funny that. Anyway the EU has lots of vetos and voting arrangements to prevent one person gaining too much power.

On the UK side if May had a big majority she could have done anything she wanted.

Yeah.. Right.. You missed the speech calling for a EU chancellor and finance minister then??

Was in the EU Parliament.

BoatMad · 11-10-2017 01:10AM

Yeah.. Right.. You missed the speech calling for a EU chancellor and finance minister then??

loads of "calls " in the EU for all sorts of things, member states retain a veto. end of story

Junkyard Tom · 11-10-2017 02:00AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

Most people in NI see themselves as Northern Irish.

The above statement is wrong.

Also, the term 'northern Irish' is fairly meaningless. Everyone who lives in the northern half of Ireland is geographically northern Irish. There is no 'northern Irish' political party. SF and the SDLP are united Ireland parties, UUP/DUP consider themselves 'British' (politically at least) UK parties.

Red_Wake · 11-10-2017 04:15AM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

prinzeugen wrote: »

Most people in NI see themselves as Northern Irish.

The above statement is wrong.

Also, the term 'northern Irish' is fairly meaningless. Everyone who lives in the northern half of Ireland is geographically northern Irish. There is no 'northern Irish' political party. SF and the SDLP are united Ireland parties, UUP/DUP consider themselves 'British' (politically at least) UK parties.

Maybe people vote for parties in NI based on things other than nationalist/unionist reasons?

If one were to disagree on a UI with SF, but agree with their other policies, wouldn't it be unreasonable to not vote for them?

Peregrinus · 11-10-2017 06:46AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

Shows how much you know about Britex if you think that is all its about.

It's all they were asked.

If, as you seem to think, the 55.8% "Remain" vote in Northern Ireland was not a vote to remain in the EU, would it not follow that the 53.4% vote "Leave" vote in England was not a vote to leave the EU?

Peregrinus · 11-10-2017 06:55AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

Most people in NI see themselves as Northern Irish.

Not British, Not Irish, but Northern Irish. On both sides of the wall.

But don't let facts get in the way of yet another anti British rant.

As regeards letting facts get in the way, you should perhaps look to the beam in your own eye, Eugene. "Northern Irish", as a preferred identity in NI, comes third after "British" and "Irish". It's not the favoured identification on either side of the wall (or of either gender, or of any age group.)

murphaph · 11-10-2017 08:33AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

While the public finances may be "great", the money is not going to the forces.

Go into Easons and read any of the aviation periodicals. Its fact.

Sure half the Luftwaffe Eurofighter Typhoons are grounded as they can't afford the spares.

Its why Austria is looking for Eurofighter replacements also.

Germany pulled the plug on the upgrades that would have made a true multirole aircraft and no other country can afford to go it alone.

Also the consortium that builds the Eurofighter (of which BAE is a part) is based in... Germany.

So Germany is not skint as you put it. It's chosen not to fund certain military hardware and spend its money on other things. Possibly other military hardware, possibly the hospital my son spent the last 2 nights in, recovering from pneumonia, which was quickly diagnosed by his doc (in Germany children go to paediatricians in the community, not to a GP) and for which treatment began immediately after his doc referred him to the nearby hospital (and could call the consultant as we made our way directly to paediatrics) No queues. Private room like a hotel in not 15 minutes from our house. Meanwhile the UK apparently has to leave the EU to properly fund the NHS. Or so the big red bus told us.

Anyway, nevermind, I'm sure Mr. Fox will be able to flog stuff on behalf of BAE to the world's most brutal dictatorships to make up the shortfall.

Enzokk · 11-10-2017 08:51AM

Meanwhile back in Brexit land Theresa May cannot commit to voting to leave the EU if the referendum was held tomorrow. So she is in charge of the UK leaving the EU, but she will not vote for it. She cannot see the benefits right now of leaving the EU when she has all the information available to her, but she is plunging ahead, come what may, to keep herself in charge.

I think that is the scariest thing so far in all of this.

Theresa May refuses to say how she would vote in second EU referendum

Fratton Fred · 11-10-2017 08:59AM

Enzokk wrote: »

Meanwhile back in Brexit land Theresa May cannot commit to voting to leave the EU if the referendum was held tomorrow. So she is in charge of the UK leaving the EU, but she will not vote for it. She cannot see the benefits right now of leaving the EU when she has all the information available to her, but she is plunging ahead, come what may, to keep herself in charge.

I think that is the scariest thing so far in all of this.

Theresa May refuses to say how she would vote in second EU referendum

so what should she do, just hand over to Boris?

it is a completely stupid thing to slate the PM for.

Enzokk · 11-10-2017 09:06AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so what should she do, just hand over to Boris?

it is a completely stupid thing to slate the PM for.

"I see the benefits of leaving the EU and would support leaving in a new referendum."

How hard is that? She looks worse now for not committing to her path she has chosen. No-one forced her to run for PM or trigger article 50. If she didn't want it she should have stood aside for Andrea Leadsom.

mountaintop · 11-10-2017 09:17AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so what should she do, just hand over to Boris?

it is a completely stupid thing to slate the PM for.

Britain, basking in its own glory, monolingual, separated from the continent by water, full of pomp and ceremony, where the police still wear bobby helmets, postboxes are red, the Routemaster bus lives on, gentlemen's clubs still dot the capital with the heads of game shot while on safari in the colonies are displayed in glass cases. There is a cohort, a mindset, that cannot accept the loss of empire and being told what to do by 'Bloody Foreigners'. They are blinded by the blinkers of history. Brexit, in a nutshell, for me.

murphaph · 11-10-2017 09:31AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so what should she do, just hand over to Boris?

it is a completely stupid thing to slate the PM for.

It's not just about May. It's about almost the entire political scene in the UK being unable to stand up and admit that the people have made a terrible decision and explain why.

Then they should wear sackcloth and ashes for using the EU as an excuse for all the domestic failings and especially for failing to control EU migration as already allowed by the EU and as practiced by most other western European countries!

But they won't. Even now on the brink of disaster this gaggle of politicians is more interested in their pensions than the economic security of their country.

It's looking increasingly likely that a hard Brexit will happen and maybe it needs to so the UK can see that it's just a midsize economy in a big sea of big whales but a part of me believes another decade would have seen enough of the older voters die out and enough younger ones come through to see the result going the other way.

Fratton Fred · 11-10-2017 09:33AM

Enzokk wrote: »

"I see the benefits of leaving the EU and would support leaving in a new referendum."

How hard is that? She looks worse now for not committing to her path she has chosen. No-one forced her to run for PM or trigger article 50. If she didn't want it she should have stood aside for Andrea Leadsom.

so you would put words in her mouth?What if she doesn't believe that?

I would rather a remainer negotiate Brexit than someone who was pro eu and then decided to follow Boris in to the anti eu camp.

murphaph · 11-10-2017 09:41AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so you would put words in her mouth?What if she doesn't believe that?

I would rahter a remainer negotiate Brexit than someone who was pro eu and then decided to follow Boris in to the anti eu camp.

Johnson has no firm conviction either way. He blows with whichever wind he thinks will advance his own personal position.

steddyeddy · 11-10-2017 09:47AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so you would put words in her mouth?What if she doesn't believe that?

I would rahter a remainer negotiate Brexit than someone who was pro eu and then decided to follow Boris in to the anti eu camp.

Considering who she appointed to the Brexit negotiating committe, coupled with her oppisition to the European courts of justice and single market, I can say there's no way she was ever a remainer. She just blows whichever way the wind is pointing.

Brexit discussion thread II

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